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Old 05-30-2021, 05:36 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by 24601NoMore View Post
Hmmm..now that work is becoming more virtual, people don't want to live in states that tax them to death and are seeking out lower tax states to live in.

Who would have ever guessed?

CA, NJ, NY, MI and other similar states could be in real trouble in terms of people moving out..I know we're looking hard to do so for the same reason - taxes on a decent house here are > $1,000 per MONTH. No thanks. That's an ER budget killer for sure.

It depends on your budget. It is actually the lower income and middle income households moving out and they tend to not pay much in state taxes. Capitol Journal: High taxes be damned, the rich keep moving to California - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com); Wait, California Has Lower Middle-Class Taxes Than Texas? - Bloomberg
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Old 05-30-2021, 05:52 PM   #22
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I put MI in the same list as the other high property tax states not just because of the tax RATE, but because of average total property taxes paid by homeowners which is largely dependent on what the house is valued by the State at -not what you paid for it or what you think it's currently worth.
Not sure why you think that. In MI, what you paid for it or what you think itís worth is exactly how the taxable value is determined. It is usually lower because there is a property tax amendment (Headlee Amendment) which limits increases in the taxable value. When I bought my house 5 years ago, the assessed value went up to exactly what I paid for the house. Taxable value is half of that number. If you donít agree with your assessed value, you appeal it by showing market value appraisals. Iím not saying that makes things cheap, but that is how itís done.

Now that Iíve been in my house for 5 years, I would never appeal my assessed value because I feel that I could already get more than the assessed value for my house.
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Old 05-30-2021, 05:52 PM   #23
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Iíd like to know the FL county where taxes are 0.5% for a new purchase.

Bought several years ago, have a homestead and/or other exemptions, J can believe it.

Iím in one of the lowest property tax rate counties at ~1%. Broward was about 2% when I bailed, many others in broadly considered attractive places are similar.

Enlighten me, please. I like to move to a warmer part of the state in a few years
Central FL parts of Orange and Osceola
Warmer parts of the state? You must be kidding unless you are referring to a few weeks in the winter in North FL.
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Old 05-30-2021, 07:05 PM   #24
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Not sure why you think that. In MI, what you paid for it or what you think it’s worth is exactly how the taxable value is determined. It is usually lower because there is a property tax amendment (Headlee Amendment) which limits increases in the taxable value. When I bought my house 5 years ago, the assessed value went up to exactly what I paid for the house. Taxable value is half of that number. If you don’t agree with your assessed value, you appeal it by showing market value appraisals. I’m not saying that makes things cheap, but that is how it’s done.

Now that I’ve been in my house for 5 years, I would never appeal my assessed value because I feel that I could already get more than the assessed value for my house.
That's actually only partially right. Assessed value is determined by a massively complex set of rules (literally hundreds and hundreds of pages - I know, because I have a copy) that determine value NOT on what you paid for your house, what you think your house is worth, etc - but instead, literally, every last amenity and feature your house has. Have a garbage disposal? Cha-ching. (Seriously? I've paid for my garbage grinder about 10 times over already in the form of additional yearly taxes..on a GARBAGE. GRINDER). Granite? Cha-ching. Brick? Cha-ching. A pool (God help you if you do). SERIOUS Cha-ching - that alone adds $40K to your valuation, REGARDLESS of how much your pool is worth or what you paid for it. The list goes on..and on..and on..EVERY. SINGLE. AMENITY. you have adds valuation - and hence, tax. Double oven? Cha-ching. Built-ins? Cha-ching. A gable over your porch? Cha-ching. Bay window? Cha-ching. It's ENDLESS. Oh, and that doesn't get in to what "Class" they put your house in. That's in the SOLE OPINION of the Assessor. Oh, sure..they have guidelines. But you'd better be pretty nice to your Assessor or you could wind up in a higher class than would be ideal. And that alone will add tens if not hundreds of thousands to your base valuation if that happens.

We were seriously considering building a retirement home in MI but pulled back when I became INTIMATELY familiar - WAY too familiar, in fact - with how house valuations are set. And it TRULY has ZERO to do with what you paid for it, and EVERYTHING to do with what it is "in" your house in terms of amenties, square footage, materials used, etc. And if you think differently, good luck with the review process.

All that said, I stand by my earlier statement that MI Property Taxes are INSANE and some of the worst in the country.

All that said, you ARE absolutely correct on the limitations on INCREASES in annual value. But you're missing the key part, and that's how the BASE value is initially set. And that has everything to do with what's "in" your house, the materials you used to build it, etc and DIDDLY to do with what you paid for it, what you "think" it is worth, etc. Worse, if you (God help you), sell a "capped" house (like we have..20+ years in, so our increases have been limited), everything "resets" on the new house. And you start from scratch all over again with a significantly higher starting point. We literally just looked at a new house today. Much smaller than current house. Nicer lot. Our taxes would go up $4-5K annually from what we are currently paying, because we are 'capped' today on the existing house but wouldn't be once we sell and buy a new house.
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Old 05-30-2021, 07:23 PM   #25
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PS - our retirement house was going to be ~2,500 sq ft. We planned to make it "nice" (like, actually having a garbage grinder, LOL) but not exhorbitant. I worked very closely with the county assessor to make sure I wasn't getting myself into a situation where my taxes would be prohibitive. Best estimate was that my property taxes would be $12,000 - $14,000 per year on that simple, albeit "nice" 2,500 sq foot house.

That's not to say EVERY 2,500 sq ft house in MI has those property taxes. Far from it. But like I said..it depends on a lot of things include materials used to build, what's "in" the house, even the architecture of the house (believe it not..gables? Cha-ching. Bump-outs like a bay window? Cha-ching. Face brick? Cha-ching..the list goes on..and on..and on.

Like I said..MI property taxes are BRUTAL.
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Old 05-30-2021, 08:00 PM   #26
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That's actually only partially right. Assessed value is determined by a massively complex set of rules (literally hundreds and hundreds of pages - I know, because I have a copy) that determine value NOT on what you paid for your house, what you think your house is worth, etc - but instead, literally, every last amenity and feature your house has. Have a garbage disposal? Cha-ching. (Seriously? I've paid for my garbage grinder about 10 times over already in the form of additional yearly taxes..on a GARBAGE. GRINDER). Granite? Cha-ching. Brick? Cha-ching. A pool (God help you if you do). SERIOUS Cha-ching - that alone adds $40K to your valuation, REGARDLESS of how much your pool is worth or what you paid for it. The list goes on..and on..and on..EVERY. SINGLE. AMENITY. you have adds valuation - and hence, tax. Double oven? Cha-ching. Built-ins? Cha-ching. A gable over your porch? Cha-ching. Bay window? Cha-ching. It's ENDLESS. Oh, and that doesn't get in to what "Class" they put your house in. That's in the SOLE OPINION of the Assessor. Oh, sure..they have guidelines. But you'd better be pretty nice to your Assessor or you could wind up in a higher class than would be ideal. And that alone will add tens if not hundreds of thousands to your base valuation if that happens.

We were seriously considering building a retirement home in MI but pulled back when I became INTIMATELY familiar - WAY too familiar, in fact - with how house valuations are set. And it TRULY has ZERO to do with what you paid for it, and EVERYTHING to do with what it is "in" your house in terms of amenties, square footage, materials used, etc. And if you think differently, good luck with the review process.

All that said, I stand by my earlier statement that MI Property Taxes are INSANE and some of the worst in the country.

All that said, you ARE absolutely correct on the limitations on INCREASES in annual value. But you're missing the key part, and that's how the BASE value is initially set. And that has everything to do with what's "in" your house, the materials you used to build it, etc and DIDDLY to do with what you paid for it, what you "think" it is worth, etc. Worse, if you (God help you), sell a "capped" house (like we have..20+ years in, so our increases have been limited), everything "resets" on the new house. And you start from scratch all over again with a significantly higher starting point. We literally just looked at a new house today. Much smaller than current house. Nicer lot. Our taxes would go up $4-5K annually from what we are currently paying, because we are 'capped' today on the existing house but wouldn't be once we sell and buy a new house.
What youíre describing is the assessment on a newly built house. Been there done that. Since there is no sales price, you are correct, the assessor gets first stab at what the home will be assessed at. That doesnít mean that you canít appeal that with market based comps. In my case, I over built and the assessment came in lower than what I spent so it would have been pointless to appeal.

Second, Iím not sure if your retirement home was going to be your full time residence or not but there is a homestead property tax exemption in Michigan. If the house is your primary residence, you pay half the tax. So, if you looked at the taxes and did not consider the homestead credit, you may have been mislead. If it was not going to be your primary residence, then yes, the taxes would be double and I can see how that would appear outrageous.

When we gave my daughter her house, she lost her homestead exemption. We won it back since her name was on the title the entire time (we just gave her our share) but yes, the initial tax bill was crazy. Especially given the size and value of the house.
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Old 05-30-2021, 08:10 PM   #27
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PS - our retirement house was going to be ~2,500 sq ft. We planned to make it "nice" (like, actually having a garbage grinder, LOL) but not exhorbitant. I worked very closely with the county assessor to make sure I wasn't getting myself into a situation where my taxes would be prohibitive. Best estimate was that my property taxes would be $12,000 - $14,000 per year on that simple, albeit "nice" 2,500 sq foot house.

That's not to say EVERY 2,500 sq ft house in MI has those property taxes. Far from it. But like I said..it depends on a lot of things include materials used to build, what's "in" the house, even the architecture of the house (believe it not..gables? Cha-ching. Bump-outs like a bay window? Cha-ching. Face brick? Cha-ching..the list goes on..and on..and on.

Like I said..MI property taxes are BRUTAL.
Were you building on a lake? That would change things drastically. However, I can see a 2500 sq ft house in Traverse City being taxed at $12-$14K but that would be before the exemption. In Glen Arbor and on a lake - whole different situation.
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Old 05-30-2021, 08:54 PM   #28
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Were you building on a lake? That would change things drastically. However, I can see a 2500 sq ft house in Traverse City being taxed at $12-$14K but that would be before the exemption. In Glen Arbor and on a lake - whole different situation.
Not on a lake. In a sub.

Glenn Arbor millage rate is a LOT lower than it is downstate. Roughly half. (I've actually looked it up). We've actually been looking in Glenn Arbor for that reason. But - cost of living AND cost of homes (especially new construction) is then a lot higher also, and you have the tourism issues and crowding to deal with.

And, yes, $12-14K WITH the homestead exemption on a 2,500 sq ft "nice" (albeit, not crazy) house. That same house in TN would probably be $2K / yr in Property Taxes. Remember that everything - and I mean EVERYTHING you put into a house here increases valuation. We were being required to use mostly brick (vs wood, which I wanted to use since we ideally wanted a Craftsman style. The cost of the brick was calculated per square foot on the TAXES - not just the construction cost. And it was hugely more expensive on a yearly tax basis than wood. Crazy!!)

I have no idea if other states have this whacky approach to valuation, but FWIW..and I do think that sites like WalletHub who think MI is "mid" bad in terms of taxes have no idea what they are talking about, as they are looking at RATES only and none of these other variables.
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Old 05-30-2021, 10:16 PM   #29
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And, yes, $12-14K WITH the homestead exemption on a 2,500 sq ft "nice" (albeit, not crazy) house. That same house in TN would probably be $2K / yr in Property Taxes. .
Why don't you move to TN?

Family I know with eight kids just moved to TN from Oregon. Taxes was one reason.
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Old 05-31-2021, 06:51 AM   #30
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Why don't you move to TN?

Family I know with eight kids just moved to TN from Oregon. Taxes was one reason.
We've been looking in TN for a while now. Just haven't found anything that is close to what we're looking for in terms of location, close to parks and trails, decent medical, type and size of home, floor plan, privacy, etc.

The bigger issue is that wife has a pretty large family that she's close to, and is really hesitant to be more than a car drive away..I do think she'd (very) reluctantly go if we ever found something, but so far it's been like looking for a purple unicorn.
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Old 05-31-2021, 07:16 AM   #31
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Talking to my friends who know RE well, the consensus is this isnít a bubble either. Guess weíll see.
Everyone say this when "in the bubble" every time! I simply look at the long term inflation adjusted home price chart. It has to revert to its mean if history is any proof. Some interesting charts/data here. Looks like we are already past 2008 peak! I am calling it a bubble.
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Old 05-31-2021, 07:37 AM   #32
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Everyone say this when "in the bubble" every time! I simply look at the long term inflation adjusted home price chart. It has to revert to its mean if history is any proof. Some interesting charts/data here. Looks like we are already past 2008 peak! I am calling it a bubble.
Yes, but the 2008 bubble was burst because there was a collapse in the lending industry. Whatís out there to burst this bubble? If the raise in prices is due to a shift in work location (virtual) and the resulting shift into different housing, do you see that bursting? I donít. I think it will find a new high and level off. It will probably stagnate at some point and maybe drop some, but I donít see a burst. Same with the low interest rates. Prices may stagnate or drop as interest rates go higher, but why would they go bust? Of course only time will tell, but I think weíre going through a structural change in the workplace that is affecting how people want to live and I donít see that changing so rapidly in the other direction as to cause a burst, or drastic drop in pricing.
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Old 05-31-2021, 07:48 AM   #33
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Yes, but the 2008 bubble was burst because there was a collapse in the lending industry. What’s out there to burst this bubble? If the raise in prices is due to a shift in work location (virtual) and the resulting shift into different housing, do you see that bursting? I don’t. I think it will find a new high and level off. It will probably stagnate at some point and maybe drop some, but I don’t see a burst. Same with the low interest rates. Prices may stagnate or drop as interest rates go higher, but why would they go bust? Of course only time will tell, but I think we’re going through a structural change in the workplace that is affecting how people want to live and I don’t see that changing so rapidly in the other direction as to cause a burst, or drastic drop in pricing.
I don't have a crystal ball but "any" chart always reverts to its mean. I don't know how that happens but it has always happened. Specifically for RE, biggest risk I see is the mortgage rate. In light of recent inflation fears, federal reserve may have to raise the interest rate sooner rather than later. RE prices has to come down significantly to make them affordable at a higher mortgage rate.

PS: Lower part of K will eventually pose new kind of problems for the country that no one can foresee. Again I don't know what is going to be the end result but everything is going the wrong way for the lower K.
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Old 05-31-2021, 11:39 AM   #34
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We've been looking in TN for a while now. Just haven't found anything that is close to what we're looking for in terms of location, close to parks and trails, decent medical, type and size of home, floor plan, privacy, etc.

The bigger issue is that wife has a pretty large family that she's close to, and is really hesitant to be more than a car drive away..I do think she'd (very) reluctantly go if we ever found something, but so far it's been like looking for a purple unicorn.
Keep looking! That house is out there somewhere. It took me four years of daily searching online, and sometimes in person, to finally find my Dream Home. This was despite knowing exactly where I wanted it to be.
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Old 06-01-2021, 01:08 PM   #35
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Flying into Atlanta airport to change planes last week, could not believe all the red clay torn up for brand new developments. Must have been 10 or more huge neighborhoods being built, with brand new roads visible from on high. Traffic is already unbearable there, isn't it?
It is miserable (traffic) and has been for years. In the most sought after areas, there is infill going in. Older ranch homes (1500-2000 SF) are being bulldozed for McMansions. Yet, the people still keep rolling in.

I am quite happy to live where I do now. Big enough city that is 20-25 minutes away to give me most of what I want out of a big city without the big city issues. Good hospitals 10 minutes away. Ag exemption on a large piece of our property that is out "in the sticks". I don't ever see me living in ATL (or a similar place) ever again.
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Old 06-01-2021, 03:46 PM   #36
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I don't have a crystal ball but "any" chart always reverts to its mean. I don't know how that happens but it has always happened. Specifically for RE, biggest risk I see is the mortgage rate. In light of recent inflation fears, federal reserve may have to raise the interest rate sooner rather than later. RE prices has to come down significantly to make them affordable at a higher mortgage rate.
At least part of the recent price explosion has to be related to super-low inventory. There are more buyers than sellers, which is driving prices up. As the pandemic eases and things get back to ďnormalĒ, the extra inventory should theoretically spur some competition among sellers and at least flatten prices.
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Old 06-01-2021, 10:58 PM   #37
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That's actually only partially right. Assessed value is determined by a massively complex set of rules (literally hundreds and hundreds of pages - I know, because I have a copy) that determine value NOT on what you paid for your house, what you think your house is worth, etc - but instead, literally, every last amenity and feature your house has. Have a garbage disposal? Cha-ching. (Seriously? I've paid for my garbage grinder about 10 times over already in the form of additional yearly taxes..on a GARBAGE. GRINDER). Granite? Cha-ching. Brick? Cha-ching. A pool (God help you if you do). SERIOUS Cha-ching - that alone adds $40K to your valuation, REGARDLESS of how much your pool is worth or what you paid for it. The list goes on..and on..and on..EVERY. SINGLE. AMENITY. you have adds valuation - and hence, tax. Double oven? Cha-ching. Built-ins? Cha-ching. A gable over your porch? Cha-ching. Bay window? Cha-ching. It's ENDLESS. Oh, and that doesn't get in to what "Class" they put your house in. That's in the SOLE OPINION of the Assessor. Oh, sure..they have guidelines. But you'd better be pretty nice to your Assessor or you could wind up in a higher class than would be ideal. And that alone will add tens if not hundreds of thousands to your base valuation if that happens.

We were seriously considering building a retirement home in MI but pulled back when I became INTIMATELY familiar - WAY too familiar, in fact - with how house valuations are set. And it TRULY has ZERO to do with what you paid for it, and EVERYTHING to do with what it is "in" your house in terms of amenties, square footage, materials used, etc. And if you think differently, good luck with the review process.

All that said, I stand by my earlier statement that MI Property Taxes are INSANE and some of the worst in the country.

All that said, you ARE absolutely correct on the limitations on INCREASES in annual value. But you're missing the key part, and that's how the BASE value is initially set. And that has everything to do with what's "in" your house, the materials you used to build it, etc and DIDDLY to do with what you paid for it, what you "think" it is worth, etc. Worse, if you (God help you), sell a "capped" house (like we have..20+ years in, so our increases have been limited), everything "resets" on the new house. And you start from scratch all over again with a significantly higher starting point. We literally just looked at a new house today. Much smaller than current house. Nicer lot. Our taxes would go up $4-5K annually from what we are currently paying, because we are 'capped' today on the existing house but wouldn't be once we sell and buy a new house.
Not MI but a friend lived next door to a guy who did a remod that included the external part. He LEFT it finished in tar paper which saved him (Old memory, so could be off) $1000/year(?). Some states/localities are just plain obtuse when it comes to tax basing. We feel fortunate to be taxed at our rate in an otherwise HCOL area. State taxes, in general are definitely off-set for the oldsters under most circumstances. One of few bargains here in Paradise so YMMV.
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Old 06-02-2021, 05:57 AM   #38
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That's actually only partially right. Assessed value is determined by a massively complex set of rules (literally hundreds and hundreds of pages - I know, because I have a copy) that determine value NOT on what you paid for your house, what you think your house is worth, etc - but instead, literally, every last amenity and feature your house has. Have a garbage disposal? Cha-ching. (Seriously? I've paid for my garbage grinder about 10 times over already in the form of additional yearly taxes..on a GARBAGE. GRINDER). Granite? Cha-ching. Brick? Cha-ching. A pool (God help you if you do). SERIOUS Cha-ching - that alone adds $40K to your valuation, REGARDLESS of how much your pool is worth or what you paid for it. The list goes on..and on..and on..EVERY. SINGLE. AMENITY. you have adds valuation - and hence, tax. Double oven? Cha-ching. Built-ins? Cha-ching. A gable over your porch? Cha-ching. Bay window? Cha-ching. It's ENDLESS. Oh, and that doesn't get in to what "Class" they put your house in. That's in the SOLE OPINION of the Assessor. Oh, sure..they have guidelines. But you'd better be pretty nice to your Assessor or you could wind up in a higher class than would be ideal. And that alone will add tens if not hundreds of thousands to your base valuation if that happens.
We have lived in Michigan nearly all of our adult lives and have not experienced this. FWIW.
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Old 06-02-2021, 09:17 AM   #39
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Everyone say this when "in the bubble" every time! I simply look at the long term inflation adjusted home price chart. It has to revert to its mean if history is any proof. Some interesting charts/data here. Looks like we are already past 2008 peak! I am calling it a bubble.
I certainly hope youíre right! Otherwise I may have to keep working for a few more years!
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Old 06-02-2021, 09:21 AM   #40
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Question: with so many new homes being built and birth rates dropping, isn't the net result going to be a glut of homes? I doubt immigration is the X-factor.......or is it?
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