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Old 02-23-2020, 03:21 PM   #21
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My niece and nephew had to resort to subterfuge and deceit to get care for their mom (88), who was clearly suffering from dementia. An example - she had drove her car shopping, forgot the way home, ran out of gas on the side of the road 25 miles away and was been found by the police 36 hours later (think Silver Alert). Although this was the most extreme example, she had done something similar on several different occasions. In spite of all sorts of unsafe and irrational behaviors like this, she not only refused to move to assisted living, she refused to see a doctor for fear she would be diagnosed as "crazy" and lose her independence.

Seeing no other solution, her two children found their mom a very nice assisted living apartment and worked with the facility manager and a physician to trick their mom into visiting the facility and allowing the doctor to evaluate her mental state. They did this by nephew taking their mom out to brunch one morning and running into a "friend" at the restaurant, who joined them at their table. The friend explained that she managed a new, upscale apartment complex which she would really like them to see.

The manager invited them to come for a tour which they did. As the tour was underway, nephew slipped away to meet his sister at mom's house where movers were loading their mom's furniture to move into the assisted living apartment. Meanwhile, the tour continued and the manager introduced mom to a "medical student" who was there working on her degree. The medical student spent some time getting to know mom then asked if she would do her a favor and let her practice giving a basic medical exam - which she did.

End result, mom spent the day meeting and talking with other residents (my SIL is very outgoing and chatty) and the was shown her new apartment, complete with her own furniture. No, she was not happy.

That was 10 months ago and she still asks nephew to take her home some days but most of the time seems to like her new friends. Her overall health has improved via better nutrition, while her dementia is gradually worsening.

Niece and nephew have feelings of guilt over what they did (kidnapping?) but know their mom is much better off because of their actions.
I think that's brilliant. They deserve a medal for that plan!
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Old 02-23-2020, 03:39 PM   #22
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I think that's brilliant. They deserve a medal for that plan!
Credit goes to the facility administrator. She suggested the idea after my nephew told her the sad story of his mom who desperately needed but refused help.

Based on some of the stories posted here I think it is likely similar strategies have and are being used when nothing else will work.
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Old 02-23-2020, 03:41 PM   #23
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Yes, that's a great story.
My mother resisted as long as she could, but I finally had to put my foot down and moved her into a nice retirement home where she had a good sized apartment with her own furniture and all meals were just a short walk down the hall. After a week there, she started giving me grief for "not telling her about the place years ago". So it turned out well for her and she was very happy there for about ten years until her mind began slipping and she had to move again into a memory care place.
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Old 02-23-2020, 03:47 PM   #24
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Yes, that's a great story.
It would have been far better if I had proofread my work and corrected all the grammatical errors.

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My mother resisted as long as she could, but I finally had to put my foot down and moved her into a nice retirement home where she had a good sized apartment with her own furniture and all meals were just a short walk down the hall. After a week there, she started giving me grief for "not telling her about the place years ago". So it turned out well for her and she was very happy there for about ten years until her mind began slipping and she had to move again into a memory care place.
Good on you for putting your foot down. Be thankful your mom allowed you to do so without going ballistic like my SIL did when my nephew tried to do the same.

I failed to mention that part of the plan included no visits from her two children until mom had been in the facility for a week. That allowed things to cool and the memory of what they had done to her to fade a bit.
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Old 02-23-2020, 03:51 PM   #25
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A, once someone has dementia you can force them to move.
This is a broad statement. As we all know, there are varying degrees of dementia, and just because you have been diagnosed, this doesn't mean that they "lose all control" of their affairs. In my experience (and hearing stories from some atty's that deal with this), it's not very easy to have someone declared incompetent...especially when the disease is in the early stages and the patient can/does put on a very, VERY good show. In some jurisdictions, if you seek to have someone declared incompetent and the court disagrees, you can't bring it to the court again for a YEAR...which can be a very long time in the world of decline cognitive ability.

While I know there are a lot of family members that take bad advice, or are downright criminal in how they deal with older family members, I think *most* people are good and go above and beyond in taking care of these members. A very good friend of mine deals with eldercare issues as a living and the bad stories are far, FAR less than the relative "good" stories.
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Old 02-23-2020, 05:26 PM   #26
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I have several years of experience working in a memory eval center and Assisted living
.

For families that have pre-existing drama, the decision making needed when someone is diagnosed with cognitive impairment is usually chaotic ! Many examples are described above.
One fact that some are not aware of is that certain forms of dementia do not initially present with memory loss and instead the person has personality/mood or behavior changes.
On a personal basis, We are friends with a couple in which the DH experienced financial fraud (about $60,000) . The DW did not know about it because the account was in his name only. Adult Protective services was called. He's having cognitive eval now but its sad that his wife was not aware.

In my experience, Family members sometimes do not "want " to see changes until an event (financial or driving or legal) occurs.
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Old 02-23-2020, 05:49 PM   #27
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Fly, I didn’t mean in the early stages when people can still function. If you read this and the other thread I am against interfering until it’s absolutely necessary. If a person’s mind is fine I would never interfere just to make them safe.
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Old 02-23-2020, 06:41 PM   #28
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Fly, I didnít mean in the early stages when people can still function. If you read this and the other thread I am against interfering until itís absolutely necessary. If a personís mind is fine I would never interfere just to make them safe.
Gotcha!! Thanks for clarifying!
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:51 AM   #29
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Hate to say it, but some of this stuff sounds like a case to support the set up of an irrevocable trust, which we have for our parents for about half their monies.
While probably best spun off into a separate thread, the eldercare atty mentioned "an intentionally deficient irrevocable trust". With the immediate crisis I have not looked into it yet. The idea is that it protects assets but still allows the step-up in basis of assets (ie rental property) when the assets are passed on which apparently is a problem with "traditional" (non-intentionally deficient?) irrevocable trusts.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:06 AM   #30
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Thanks for all the responses/suggestions so far.

It was suggested by Adult Protective Services and others than I hire a "case/care manager" to be the primary contact with Dad as the already "strained" relationship will be destroyed by taking him to court. The other suggested alternative was a 3rd party guardian.



The case managers claim to have experience with getting seniors out of harms way. I have an active imagination but guess I don't have enough larceny (even though it isn't) in me to actually do it.

One question for those of you who know of somebody put into a care facility against their will... did somebody get guardianship first
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:09 AM   #31
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One question for those of you who know of somebody put into a care facility against their will... did somebody get guardianship first
In the case of my niece and nephew I posted about above, no they did not.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:26 AM   #32
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Thanks for all the responses/suggestions so far.

It was suggested by Adult Protective Services and others than I hire a "case/care manager" to be the primary contact with Dad as the already "strained" relationship will be destroyed by taking him to court. The other suggested alternative was a 3rd party guardian.

The case managers claim to have experience with getting seniors out of harms way. I have an active imagination but guess I don't have enough larceny (even though it isn't) in me to actually do it.

One question for those of you who know of somebody put into a care facility against their will... did somebody get guardianship first
We did with my mother. She had been spiraling down for several years and had been under the care of a psychiatrist for at least 2 years. She was diagnosed with frontal lobe dementia. My brother had both her financial and her health care POA for many years - ever since my dad passed away.

We tried placing her in several assisted living places (all very upscale and nice). She had been agreeable in every instance to go to the assisted living home, so it's not like she was forced to do it. She got kicked out of all 3 of them. She even set fire to one of them. After the third one she smugly told me "I know just what to do to get kicked out".

We then tried in-home assistance which worked for awhile. But she continued to get worse. The doctors would change her meds over and over trying to find the right balance that would keep her balanced but not make her a zombie.

She started hitting people - her care givers, me, any body within reach. She kept falling because she refused to use her walker insisting she was "perfectly fine". She was taken to the hospital more than once for injuries. The EMT's were called more than once because she was on the floor and nobody could get her up. She refused to use the bathroom and became incontinent. She refused to eat anything other than chocolate candy and would sit on her couch and chant over and over (for hours) "I want chocolate. I want chocolate. I want chocolate".

We finally, at the suggestion of her psychiatrist, had her admitted to a hospital for mental evaluation. After 2 weeks they advised us not to allow her to return home and helped us work with another assisted living place who agreed to take mom even knowing what all her issues were. We took her from the hospital to the new facility (also very upscale - she could afford it plus she had long-term care insurance).

At no time did we seek guardianship of her. We, fortunately had both her PCP and her psychiatrist assisting us all along the way. They both knew how very, very difficult she had become.

The whole thing was a nightmare that spanned 2 - 3 years and I am only giving you a small taste of all we endured with her.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:32 AM   #33
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Miss Molly, that’s so sad.
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Old 02-25-2020, 12:03 AM   #34
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One question for those of you who know of somebody put into a care facility against their will... did somebody get guardianship first

Our family (2 brothers and 2 sisters) did not obtain guardianship or conservatorship over our mother before admitting her to a memory care assisted living facility. My brother did obtain POA over her financial affairs and later a letter from her neurologist that basically stated our motherís mental decline left her unable to detect fraud. Although she wanted to remain in her home, she threw out in-home care providers, forgot about the regular meals my brother would bring for her, and refused to move in with her daughters for better care. Yet, her dementia was so obvious, my brother received many phone calls of concern from the branch manager of momís bank and from neighbors. She continued driving despite her license being revoked ďfor medical reasons.Ē From the damages appearing on her car, it was apparent she was running into cars, objects, (people?), and just driving away. When my brother removed her car so she would no longer drive, mom reported her son was stealing from her, and the local police arrived to arrest my brother. When he explained the situation and showed the letter from her neurologist, the police relented.

My brother was reluctant to begin procedures for guardianship and admitted he allowed our mother to live independently for too long when it was clear she was not thriving. The issue became forced on him when mom was involved in an altercation with her neighbor, and was taken by police to the hospital for mental evaluation. The doctor was adamant that mom could not return home without 24-hour care. So the hospitalís social worker quickly arranged for direct transfer to a memory care unit of a local assisted living facility. It was not an easy transition; my brother told my mother whatever he thought would lead to the least resistance to the relocation.

Itís very difficult to care for a parent who needs assistance but refuses and resents any perceived threat to their independence. In the end, though, I think you will not regret whatever measures you take to provide better care for your father.
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Old 02-25-2020, 12:19 PM   #35
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We are buying a house from a lady with dementia. Her kids are running the show and making the decisions. She knows she is moving to a apartment, but is not happy about it. She also made it very difficult to show the house as she would not leave during the showing.

We do have a contract on the house. But the lady was still there during the home inspection and was not happy that anyone needed to inspect her house.

We had a plumbing company take a look also and evidently she was upset again, her daughter and the realtor had to be there before they came in to calm her down, again she would not leave.

We asked for some paperwork, the realtor said there were building plans and the elevation survey available. But she doesn’t want to give those up now. We gave 60 days to close, I don’t envy her kids as I went through much of the same with my dad.

I am definaty doing a walk thru prior to closing. Not to check condition, we are remodeling anyway, but just to make sure she’s gone.
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Old 03-07-2020, 08:07 AM   #36
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My niece and nephew had to resort to subterfuge and deceit to get care for their mom (88), who was clearly suffering from dementia. An example - she had drove her car shopping, forgot the way home, ran out of gas on the side of the road 25 miles away and was been found by the police 36 hours later (think Silver Alert). Although this was the most extreme example, she had done something similar on several different occasions. In spite of all sorts of unsafe and irrational behaviors like this, she not only refused to move to assisted living, she refused to see a doctor for fear she would be diagnosed as "crazy" and lose her independence.

Seeing no other solution, her two children found their mom a very nice assisted living apartment and worked with the facility manager and a physician to trick their mom into visiting the facility and allowing the doctor to evaluate her mental state. They did this by nephew taking their mom out to brunch one morning and running into a "friend" at the restaurant, who joined them at their table. The friend explained that she managed a new, upscale apartment complex which she would really like them to see.

The manager invited them to come for a tour which they did. As the tour was underway, nephew slipped away to meet his sister at mom's house where movers were loading their mom's furniture to move into the assisted living apartment. Meanwhile, the tour continued and the manager introduced mom to a "medical student" who was there working on her degree. The medical student spent some time getting to know mom then asked if she would do her a favor and let her practice giving a basic medical exam - which she did.

End result, mom spent the day meeting and talking with other residents (my SIL is very outgoing and chatty) and the was shown her new apartment, complete with her own furniture. No, she was not happy.

That was 10 months ago and she still asks nephew to take her home some days but most of the time seems to like her new friends. Her overall health has improved via better nutrition, while her dementia is gradually worsening.

Niece and nephew have feelings of guilt over what they did (kidnapping?) but know their mom is much better off because of their actions.
That's genius!
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:41 PM   #37
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We did with my mother. She had been spiraling down for several years and had been under the care of a psychiatrist for at least 2 years. She was diagnosed with frontal lobe dementia. My brother had both her financial and her health care POA for many years - ever since my dad passed away.

We tried placing her in several assisted living places (all very upscale and nice). She had been agreeable in every instance to go to the assisted living home, so it's not like she was forced to do it. She got kicked out of all 3 of them. She even set fire to one of them. After the third one she smugly told me "I know just what to do to get kicked out".

We then tried in-home assistance which worked for awhile. But she continued to get worse. The doctors would change her meds over and over trying to find the right balance that would keep her balanced but not make her a zombie.

She started hitting people - her care givers, me, any body within reach. She kept falling because she refused to use her walker insisting she was "perfectly fine". She was taken to the hospital more than once for injuries. The EMT's were called more than once because she was on the floor and nobody could get her up. She refused to use the bathroom and became incontinent. She refused to eat anything other than chocolate candy and would sit on her couch and chant over and over (for hours) "I want chocolate. I want chocolate. I want chocolate".

We finally, at the suggestion of her psychiatrist, had her admitted to a hospital for mental evaluation. After 2 weeks they advised us not to allow her to return home and helped us work with another assisted living place who agreed to take mom even knowing what all her issues were. We took her from the hospital to the new facility (also very upscale - she could afford it plus she had long-term care insurance).

At no time did we seek guardianship of her. We, fortunately had both her PCP and her psychiatrist assisting us all along the way. They both knew how very, very difficult she had become.

The whole thing was a nightmare that spanned 2 - 3 years and I am only giving you a small taste of all we endured with her.
Wow, Miss Molly, you really went through the wringer. My DF spent most of his time at home, but after one of his hospitalizations, he needed to be under medical supervision (he was also hooked up to an IV) with a doctor on staff round the clock, and nurses, for about two weeks, and was transferred to a nursing home. I agreed to it with the discharge planners and the social workers. DF screamed bloody blue murder the entire two weeks (yes we were there every day) and pleading with my husband to carry him out of there. It was heart-breaking, but he did not attack anyone. He lost the ability to walk so that ceased to be an issue. So, no- no conservatorship was needed. My impression that the ability to transfer to a nursing home was easiest upon discharge from a hospital.
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Old 03-07-2020, 05:03 PM   #38
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My impression that the ability to transfer to a nursing home was easiest upon discharge to a hospital.
Yes, that was our experience. It was really difficult to get our mother to willingly go into an assisted living facility or senior care community when it was just her children talking to her. But upon hospitalization for mental health reasons and a recommendation by the hospital physician that our mother should not return to her home without 24 hour supervision, a social worker made all the arrangements for our mother to be directly transferred to a nearby assisted living facility. Arrangements were made in 48 hours. We could not have managed that by ourselves.
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