In 10 years, will I think "I should have bought that solar panel system?"

We installed rooftop solar on our home back in 2011 taking advantage of federal, state and utility rebates. The break-even point for us was 7 years. :dance: Our home is 100% electric. No natural gas available in our area.

Anyway, as other posters have suggested, no way would we have invaded retirement accounts to fund our install. Should you decide to proceed, a home equity line would seem a better option.

Another matter to investigate before slapping a sh*tload of panels on your roof - is the roof itself in good repair? And I mean almost new. If its condition is questionable at all, get that taken care of first.

Prior to installing our rooftop PV, we had already replaced our home's electric water heater and HVAC along with replacing ductwork and adding additional attic insulation.

Don't expect that rooftop solar will increase your home's value very much, if at all. Might be best to take that out of the equation all together.
 
I don't know anything about where you live, but I do know energy costs and solutions are very geographic.

$40K sounds like a lot for what you're doing. At the very least, before moving forward get a couple of bids from competitors to see what other's recommend, what they would charge, and the level of service they would provide. Where I live, there are tons of companies shlepping solar/energy services, and many offer low-interest financing, so you don't have to raid your 401K. You have plenty of income to qualify.
 
I would not do what was proposed. I live in South Texas. It seems our home is the same size as the OP's at over 3000 sq ft. We don't have the kind of electric bills that the OP has. Our air conditioners date from 1993 and are about 13 SEER. We don't need a higher SEER to have low electric bills.

I would figure out why your electric bills are so high. It is not because you have an all-electric house. At least I don't think so. I think it is how you use electricity. We don't have LED lightbulbs either.

We don't set the indoor temps too low in summer nor too high in winter. We use ceiling fans. We don't have lights turned on. I am at home now and there is not a single light turned on in the entire house, but I know lights are small potatoes. We don't have an icemaker or fancy refrigerator. We do have and use ceiling fans in the family room, the great room, and the bedrooms.

Our home has decent insulation and a good site plan, too.

So where does all your electricity go? To heat the swimming pool in the winter? Are the neighbors tapped into your line?

I think technology will change a lot over the next 10 to 20 years. No way would I ever consider solar panels. I'm not even considering making my HVAC more efficient.
 
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I live in south central TX in a similar sized (2,700 SF) single story all electric house built in 1998. Our average monthly usage is in the neighborhood of 1,600 kWh. I've run the numbers on installing a solar system a couple of times over the past few years and even with tax and other incentives I can't get them to work unless we live in this house until our mid-90's and have zero maintenance expenses.

One comment on the 25 year warranty you are being offered. What are the odds the company will still be around to make good on that warranty 10 years from now, much less 25?

If you go forward with the deal the odds are in 10 years you will I think "I should NOT have bought that solar panel system!"
 
I won't comment on how to pay for it, but I will comment on solar.
We bought our house with it already installed and it makes a huge difference in our energy costs. We live is a state were we can sell the excess back. Our utility bills in the Spring months were actually negative with the credits going into our "solar bank" paid back at the end of the year. We haven't been in the house a full year yet, but based on my estimate, I think we will end up the year with about a $200 - $300 credit which more than pay for the gas we use. So we will pay virtually zero for utilities.
 
Not really. You automatically lose your tax savings, as 401k loan repayments are made with post-tax dollars, not pre-tax. And all that money will be out of the market while awaiting your repayment, possibly costing you more than 6%. For any reason you want to leave your job you have to payback 100% right away as well.

I would only use a 401k loan to buy a home, when that person had no other source for the money. You have taxable dollars available - I'd use that if you're going to go ahead.
Just the interest, right?

You contributed pre-tax money, knowing it would be taxed on withdrawal. When you take out a loan, the money isn't taxed, so you don't lose your tax savings when you return that money. What you do lose is that the 6% in your 401K would've been on tax deferred money, but instead "grew" outside the 401K.

Say you borrowed $10K @6%, and invested the money in your taxable account for a year @6% rather than make a different investment in your 401K @6%. At the end of the year, you pay back $10,600, so your 401K balance is the same no matter which way you invested it. However, your taxable account grew by $600, so you pay taxes on those gains. You do not pay taxes again on the original $10K.
 
Not really. You automatically lose your tax savings, as 401k loan repayments are made with post-tax dollars, not pre-tax. And all that money will be out of the market while awaiting your repayment, possibly costing you more than 6%.


Lots of good discussion! And good points here on the 401K. Being "out of the market" isn't necessarily a bad thing, this is a way to migrate over back to cash for awhile. But sure, trying to time the market isn't a sure bet. Also:

(1) I'm not sure how much control you have over what portions a $50K loan withdrawal from the 401K comes from (assuming you are distributed into a few different funds; or like in my case, 75% of my 401K is self-managed)

(2) I can't recall if the 401K loan payments counts as a contribution to the 401K for that same year. Meaning, if $19K is the max contribution limit, does this mean you can't pay the loan back and make your normal pre-tax contributions within that same year? (obviously you can pay the 6% interest commitment on the loan as required, but you might not be able to contribute more pre-tax dollars; like $12000 paying the loan, then $7000 pre-taxed -- or is this a backway method to contribute more than the max?)


And while I've run numbers in various ways, it's a bit hard to be truly fair to every situation. For example, your taxable dollars (bank/savings) is very liquid -- unlike the 401K funds. I could see a case of "sacrificing" a small portion of the 401K balance (~8%), for the sake of keeping a larger bulk liquid.
 
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Ok, let's do this!

Disclosure: I'm not an expert and probably made some computation mistake here.

Assumptions:
- target of contributing $10K/yr pre-tax to 401K
- 401K is making 5% average annual return (broad/blended funds)
- target of contributing $10K/yr into a taxable (broker) account
- broker account is also making 5% annual return (maybe 5-8% REIT/dividend/CEF/etc)
- cost of electricity rises with the inflation rate of 2.5%
- electric bill is $2400/yr ($200 a month)

Some comments:
- over 22 years, you're going to pay $57K in electricity
- the "loan" of $40K represents sufficient home improvements to bring the electric bill to effectively $0 (or like a 90% drop); this is parts and labor. While you could spend less, it might not achieve the $0 electric bill.
- Basically I play the model has $10K to 401K, $10K to taxable account -- counting that as basically disposable money; you obviously make over $20K/yr, so the rest of money is in your other bills (TV/phone/food), taxes, and the reserve bank account (insurance, saving up for vacation, or perhaps multiple other taxable accounts, etc). YMMV.


I "ran" this model for 22 years, just because. We're not talking early investors still paying loans/mortgage, but the more "mid-career" people with 10-20 "years to go" till retirement (full no-penalty access to 401K).


I'm organizing the results into three cases, summarized here. The numbers are in the chart below.


CASE 1: Do Nothing (total $2.0M)

Your 401K and broker account both accrue at their 5%. Since you're still paying your electric bill, the way I modeled this is that I subtracted the ~$2400/yr bill from what you could have potentially invested in the brokerage. In reality, you probably still have more income and could still achieve the full $10K plus your electric bill. But to be more apples to apples, I maintain the model as: by having an electric bill, that translates to having slightly less to invest than you could have. I think that's fair since, either way, it means less spending money for you to pay that bill.


CASE 2: Use the 401K Loan (total $2.2M)

This is where people will challenge that I've probably done something wrong -- I hope they spot it, because this does look good! So, in this case...

Since you installed the solar improvements, you start saving the $2400/yr immediately. But you have to commit to paying off the 401K loan, which we decide to do $8000/yr ($700/mo). This means for awhile you have less to contribute to the taxable account (because you're using it to pay the 401K loan), but you still want to max out the 401K contribution (yes, it may technically be $19K -- I just put $18K; reason being is because you pay the 6% interest to yourself, so leave a little wiggle room for that to avoid hitting the cap {unsure if that applies in this case, but just in case}). You do this for about 5 years, and remember you're also not paying electricity for those 5 years.

Then the way I modeled this: after having paid the loan off, now you also have $2400 extra to contribute to the taxable account. You "break even" relative to CASE 1 in year 7 (very shortly after finishing the loan payoff).

There are a couple caveats that make this hard to model: (1) within 10 years, the system is now less efficient than it used to be (most likely). On the flip side, recall you might sometimes get a surplus and get paid back for the electricity produced (just depends on the situation). (2) At this 7 year mark, you might be able to retire, again just depending in your particular situation (such as if you're able to pull from the 401K). By itself, the $107K taxable account won't be enough, but presumably (if incline to retire early) any other extra income might be used for multiple taxable accounts (but to be fair, only one of them gets the benefit of also having what used to be spent on electricity is now sent to investing -- which is the one we're modeling here).

The interesting point here is that your $40K loan has barely dented the 401K balance (relative to CASE 1, just doing nothing). But again, this is hard to model, since it depends on what kind of years those aggressive $8000/yr payback have gone (but that's why we do the conservative 5%). Another 401K loan fact that I don't think has been mentioned yet: you're only allowed one loan, so this is it, don't depend on the 401K for additional emergency loan (until after the 5 years and this current one is paid).

My interpretation here is that your original $40K loan has "cost" ~$10K (just by the delta between not having taken the loan in the final balance), which is then offset in year 8 by not having to pay electricity (and the on). And as mentioned, the other subtle benefit here is that you've kept a sizable taxable account that is very liquid (maybe at most like a 3-day waiting period to move money around, but it's your money to do as you please -- so this becomes your main emergency backup for awhile).



CASE 3: Use your Taxable Account Directly ($2.1M)

In this case, you haven't touched the 401K, and used a big chunk the taxable account. But similar to CASE 2, you start saving electricity immediately and could route that now-unspent-money to accelerate the taxable account investments (which is what this model does). Yes, both CASE 3 and CASE 1 do also take into account paying income tax on this (hence you don't gain the full 5% annual return).

It still takes 11 years to accelerate past the "do nothing" case -- though again, this presumes the caveats of the equipment still being operational and efficient towards effectively providing no-electric bill.




So, there it is -- the case that if you have good standing in a good job, with a highly likely 5-10 years to go, the 401K loan option might make sense in this situation. But two more things:

(1) I haven't even yet considered the 30% tax credit implication on all this. Maybe I'll get to that tomorrow.

(2) My tentative view here is that is a bit of a wash. I'm inclined to agree that as electrical needs rise, broader larger scale solutions will present themselves (solar/wind farms), and continue to keep energy cost down (with some exceptions at certain locations, I am sure). Basically, just the "threat of solar" I think helps motivates power grids to be efficient and fair. In other words, I agree it might be a better use of resources overall for large industrial clean-energy solutions, rather than the overhead of maintaining upteen-million individual residential solar power systems. I wouldn't interpret this as the solar options are "saving" over $100K, since it doesn't account also for the loss in efficiency of the equipment, or just the general maintenance (even replacing a single microinverter is your time, thought, distraction of just doing it -- days become precious as we get older!) That's why I call it a wash -- while $100K-$200K is good money, it's still well within the noise of the model itself (i.e. it might not really pan out that way). Clearly, YMMV (if you've inherited a chunk of change, this does convey that the PV system would pay for itself within 7-12 years, so in that sense it might be suitable for a younger person)


That said, I'm interested in the up and coming Tesla solar cells that look like shingles. The next time our roof altogether needs replacement (in another 10-15 years), maybe then the technology will be worth looking into -- meanwhile, I can incrementally work on other parts myself (water heater, radiant barrier, etc.).




NOTE: To quickly clarify how "taking a loan improves your 401k" indicated by the chart, keep in mind the context: the model assumes a nominal $10K pre-tax contribution to the 401K. But then because of the loan -- even though just temporarily (5 years), you're accelerating the contribution to near max-contribution level ($10K + $8K + ~6% interest). By year 4, this increase overshoots what you originally would have contributed.
 

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It's late and maybe I grossly missed something... But my initial take on applying the Tax Credit is that it doesn't change the overall thesis too much; but it does reduce the "time till benefit" a few years. (12 to 9 years for CASE 3, and nearly immediately for CASE 2 -- where you're applying the credit back into your own taxable account, since you're already maxing out the contribution to the 401K and loan).
 

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I'm not sure if you are including the Electric Company's connect fees, the delivery fees, taxes, etc. after the solar conversion in your future bills. Here, the only thing that is offset is the actual energy costs. All other itemized items are still billed, at least by my Electric Company. I am no expert on solar billing and it probably is different in different locations.
 
As I understand it, the tax credit is only for solar not for all the other stuff you plan on doing. I would not take the installer's word for it. I urge you to investigate further what exactly qualifies for the tax credit.
 
Ok, let's do this!

Disclosure: I'm not an expert and probably made some computation mistake here.
...

Some comments:
- over 22 years, you're going to pay $57K in electricity
- the "loan" of $40K represents sufficient home improvements to bring the electric bill to effectively $0 (or like a 90% drop); this is parts and labor. While you could spend less, it might not achieve the $0 electric bill. ...

Whoah! Hold your horses there cowboy!

Before you go into this detailed financial analysis, where are you coming up with this near zero electric bill? I do not see how a 3 kW system is going to do that for you. Until you know that, none of the other calcs have any meaning at all.

One step at a time.

-ERD50
 
I live in south central TX in a similar sized (2,700 SF) single story all electric house built in 1998. Our average monthly usage is in the neighborhood of 1,600 kWh. I've run the numbers on installing a solar system a couple of times over the past few years and even with tax and other incentives I can't get them to work unless we live in this house until our mid-90's and have zero maintenance expenses.

One comment on the 25 year warranty you are being offered. What are the odds the company will still be around to make good on that warranty 10 years from now, much less 25?

If you go forward with the deal the odds are in 10 years you will I think "I should NOT have bought that solar panel system!"
Two questions - would hail damage the solar panels like they damage the roof? If the roof is damaged by hail or wind, how do the panels affect the cost of repair or replacement?
 
Two questions - would hail damage the solar panels like they damage the roof?

Some quick research says solar panels are more resistant to hail damage than an asphalt shingle roof, but can still be damaged by a severe hailstorm.

If the roof is damaged by hail or wind, how do the panels affect the cost of repair or replacement?

No doubt the cost of replacing the roof is increased by having to remove and reinstall the panels.
 
I live in south central TX in a similar sized (2,700 SF) single story all electric house built in 1998. Our average monthly usage is in the neighborhood of 1,600 kWh. I've run the numbers on installing a solar system a couple of times over the past few years and even with tax and other incentives I can't get them to work unless we live in this house until our mid-90's and have zero maintenance expenses.

One comment on the 25 year warranty you are being offered. What are the odds the company will still be around to make good on that warranty 10 years from now, much less 25?

If you go forward with the deal the odds are in 10 years you will I think "I should NOT have bought that solar panel system!"

Wow. The average of 1,600 kWh/month is high.

My home in the "Valley of the Sun" uses 2,600 kWh in the hottest month of August, but only around 900 kWh in the mild winter months. The total annual consumption is around 15,000 kWh, for an average of 1,250 kWh/month.

It is also of the size of 2,700 sq.ft., but two-story and has a good-sized pool. It's all electric.
 
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Solar system sellers like to dangle the "no monthly electric bills" or very low ones before the home owners.

Will they put that in writing on a contract? Not likely.

Producing excess energy is indeed possible if you have a large system relative to your usage, and money aside this is feasible only if you have a large roof area that happens to be oriented just right.
 
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Two questions - would hail damage the solar panels like they damage the roof? If the roof is damaged by hail or wind, how do the panels affect the cost of repair or replacement?

Excellent questions @MichaelB! I can answer (partially at least) both of those as we have PV rooftop solar.

We make certain that our homeowner's policy expressly covers repair/replacement cost of our solar panels should they sustain damage by hail, etc. This includes the cost of removal/reinstallation of panels should roof repair be required. It is important for any homeowner who has rooftop solar to make certain their homeowner's insurance will cover damage to panels. Most companies do, there are a few IIRC that would not.
 
Excellent questions @MichaelB! I can answer (partially at least) both of those as we have PV rooftop solar.

We make certain that our homeowner's policy expressly covers repair/replacement cost of our solar panels should they sustain damage by hail, etc. This includes the cost of removal/reinstallation of panels should roof repair be required. It is important for any homeowner who has rooftop solar to make certain their homeowner's insurance will cover damage to panels. Most companies do, there are a few IIRC that would not.

Interesting. What did that add to your policy? And how many panels do you have?

-ERD50
 
Interesting. What did that add to your policy? And how many panels do you have?

-ERD50

33 panels. Covered under "other structures". The additional amount only added a few $ to the total annual policy premium. OTH, our home is located in the Phoenix area and the probability of hail damage is likely much less than in some other areas of the country.
 
1 . 30% Tax credit only applies to solar, not entire project.
2. Lot of money to save about 50 or 60 bucks a month.
3. I have radiant barrier. Never again. Roof leaks go undetected.
4. Look at ductless system if you are gonna throw that much into improving existing hvac.
5. One outfit doing all ? What are they experts at? I think I would get separate quotes.
6. Good luck with the 25 year warranty.
 
Whoah! Hold your horses there cowboy!

Before you go into this detailed financial analysis, where are you coming up with this near zero electric bill? I do not see how a 3 kW system is going to do that for you. Until you know that, none of the other calcs have any meaning at all.

One step at a time.

-ERD50


That's fair! We covered some that already: The 3 kW system by itself is 10 panels, or roughly $12K. My average usage is (for the past 3 years) roughly 2 KWH/month. The extra cost is appliances/upgrades to reduce that 2KWH consumption (more efficient water heater, HVAC, improved insulation, roof circulating fan, etc.).

I also trust some of the testimonial from others (coworkers, friends) who have installed solar, and gotten down to $18 bill, or even gotten a credit due to producing more electricity than consume.

Another perspective here might be, yes, go with a larger system. If my roof can physically fit 20 panels, then it doesn't really matter how inefficient the appliances are: the sun is providing free energy. That's why I meant: the $40K might not be these exact components or system.


Another reason to go with more panels then you need: it's going to lose efficiency over the years. So you're right, I'm more inclined to go with a 5 KWH system. Also you're right, that it's not a sure bet - which is why a staged approach would be better. Get the panels first, see if they actually help -- then improve efficiency over time (sealed ducts, circulating fans, improved appliances, etc).
 
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Another reason to go with more panels then you need: it's going to lose efficiency over the years. So you're right, I'm more inclined to go with a 5 KWH system.

My state tax credit used to be structured so that it made sense to build the system in stages. I think there was an annual maximum credit or some such.

Anyway, depending on the type of system you install, you can install X panels (and the interconnect stuff) for a 3KW system now and pretty easily add Y panels later to expand it to a 5KW system later. I think the main thing to be able to do that is to size the interconnect stuff appropriately and to get panels with integrated microinverters.

Just wanting to point out that it doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing one-time decision.
 
My state tax credit used to be structured so that it made sense to build the system in stages. I think there was an annual maximum credit or some such.

Anyway, depending on the type of system you install, you can install X panels (and the interconnect stuff) for a 3KW system now and pretty easily add Y panels later to expand it to a 5KW system later. I think the main thing to be able to do that is to size the interconnect stuff appropriately and to get panels with integrated microinverters.

Just wanting to point out that it doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing one-time decision.


Adding panels will require permits from the county and another Permission To Operate from your utility company. If solar codes have changed since original install, the original part of the solar would have to be upgraded to those.

For example; in our area, the code changed to not allow solar panels within 2' of any ridge on the roof. This is to allow firemen to cut holes in the roof in case of fire that they need to ventilate the attic. If the original install had the panels closer than 2', they would have to be relocated.


The problem with the micro inverters on each panel is that when they fail, it will be a trip each time onto the roof. By co-locating to a central inverter panel, and on the ground, your roof is spared.
 
We cut our energy usage in half just with odds and ends kinds of changes, ideas from the book The Home Energy Diet, energy star appliances, and going around with a Kill a Watt. Our energy use is low enough now that the payback period for on the grid solar is too far out to make it worthwhile for us. We've watched the solar sales guys skip our house now when they go door to door.

I do like the idea of using solar and we'd get the panels if the price comes down. Until then I use what solar I can - drying racks for laundry, rechargeable batteries with a solar charger, solar outdoor lights, solar flashlights and camping lights. Next up I'm going to buy a solar oven, small solar panels (off grid), solar kettle and dehydrator for emergencies and just kind of playing around with.
 
We cut our energy usage in half just with odds and ends kinds of changes, ideas from the book The Home Energy Diet, energy star appliances, and going around with a Kill a Watt. Our energy use is low enough now that the payback period for on the grid solar is too far out to make it worthwhile for us. We've watched the solar sales guys skip our house now when they go door to door.

I do like the idea of using solar and we'd get the panels if the price comes down. Until then I use what solar I can - drying racks for laundry, rechargeable batteries with a solar charger, solar outdoor lights, solar flashlights and camping lights. Next up I'm going to buy a solar oven, small solar panels (off grid), solar kettle and dehydrator for emergencies and just kind of playing around with.


Hmm, I am going to look at your approach. My monthly electric usage does not amount to justify installing solar panels.
 
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