|
|
07-03-2019, 10:24 AM
|
#41
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
|
Solar system sellers like to dangle the "no monthly electric bills" or very low ones before the home owners.
Will they put that in writing on a contract? Not likely.
Producing excess energy is indeed possible if you have a large system relative to your usage, and money aside this is feasible only if you have a large roof area that happens to be oriented just right.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
|
|
|
|
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!
Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!
|
07-03-2019, 12:57 PM
|
#42
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Cholula
Posts: 1,595
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB
Two questions - would hail damage the solar panels like they damage the roof? If the roof is damaged by hail or wind, how do the panels affect the cost of repair or replacement?
|
Excellent questions @MichaelB! I can answer (partially at least) both of those as we have PV rooftop solar.
We make certain that our homeowner's policy expressly covers repair/replacement cost of our solar panels should they sustain damage by hail, etc. This includes the cost of removal/reinstallation of panels should roof repair be required. It is important for any homeowner who has rooftop solar to make certain their homeowner's insurance will cover damage to panels. Most companies do, there are a few IIRC that would not.
__________________
“Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you’ll be a mile from them, and you’ll have their shoes.” – Jack Handey
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 02:00 PM
|
#43
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,886
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by candrew
Excellent questions @MichaelB! I can answer (partially at least) both of those as we have PV rooftop solar.
We make certain that our homeowner's policy expressly covers repair/replacement cost of our solar panels should they sustain damage by hail, etc. This includes the cost of removal/reinstallation of panels should roof repair be required. It is important for any homeowner who has rooftop solar to make certain their homeowner's insurance will cover damage to panels. Most companies do, there are a few IIRC that would not.
|
Interesting. What did that add to your policy? And how many panels do you have?
-ERD50
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 02:22 PM
|
#44
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Cholula
Posts: 1,595
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Interesting. What did that add to your policy? And how many panels do you have?
-ERD50
|
33 panels. Covered under "other structures". The additional amount only added a few $ to the total annual policy premium. OTH, our home is located in the Phoenix area and the probability of hail damage is likely much less than in some other areas of the country.
__________________
“Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you’ll be a mile from them, and you’ll have their shoes.” – Jack Handey
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 06:38 PM
|
#45
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Indialantic FL
Posts: 1,330
|
1 . 30% Tax credit only applies to solar, not entire project.
2. Lot of money to save about 50 or 60 bucks a month.
3. I have radiant barrier. Never again. Roof leaks go undetected.
4. Look at ductless system if you are gonna throw that much into improving existing hvac.
5. One outfit doing all ? What are they experts at? I think I would get separate quotes.
6. Good luck with the 25 year warranty.
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 09:11 PM
|
#46
|
Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 59
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Whoah! Hold your horses there cowboy!
Before you go into this detailed financial analysis, where are you coming up with this near zero electric bill? I do not see how a 3 kW system is going to do that for you. Until you know that, none of the other calcs have any meaning at all.
One step at a time.
-ERD50
|
That's fair! We covered some that already: The 3 kW system by itself is 10 panels, or roughly $12K. My average usage is (for the past 3 years) roughly 2 KWH/month. The extra cost is appliances/upgrades to reduce that 2KWH consumption (more efficient water heater, HVAC, improved insulation, roof circulating fan, etc.).
I also trust some of the testimonial from others (coworkers, friends) who have installed solar, and gotten down to $18 bill, or even gotten a credit due to producing more electricity than consume.
Another perspective here might be, yes, go with a larger system. If my roof can physically fit 20 panels, then it doesn't really matter how inefficient the appliances are: the sun is providing free energy. That's why I meant: the $40K might not be these exact components or system.
Another reason to go with more panels then you need: it's going to lose efficiency over the years. So you're right, I'm more inclined to go with a 5 KWH system. Also you're right, that it's not a sure bet - which is why a staged approach would be better. Get the panels first, see if they actually help -- then improve efficiency over time (sealed ducts, circulating fans, improved appliances, etc).
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 09:16 PM
|
#47
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boise
Posts: 7,882
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidstar
Another reason to go with more panels then you need: it's going to lose efficiency over the years. So you're right, I'm more inclined to go with a 5 KWH system.
|
My state tax credit used to be structured so that it made sense to build the system in stages. I think there was an annual maximum credit or some such.
Anyway, depending on the type of system you install, you can install X panels (and the interconnect stuff) for a 3KW system now and pretty easily add Y panels later to expand it to a 5KW system later. I think the main thing to be able to do that is to size the interconnect stuff appropriately and to get panels with integrated microinverters.
Just wanting to point out that it doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing one-time decision.
__________________
"At times the world can seem an unfriendly and sinister place, but believe us when we say there is much more good in it than bad. All you have to do is look hard enough, and what might seem to be a series of unfortunate events, may in fact be the first steps of a journey." Violet Baudelaire.
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 09:29 PM
|
#48
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Placerville
Posts: 1,788
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521
My state tax credit used to be structured so that it made sense to build the system in stages. I think there was an annual maximum credit or some such.
Anyway, depending on the type of system you install, you can install X panels (and the interconnect stuff) for a 3KW system now and pretty easily add Y panels later to expand it to a 5KW system later. I think the main thing to be able to do that is to size the interconnect stuff appropriately and to get panels with integrated microinverters.
Just wanting to point out that it doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing one-time decision.
|
Adding panels will require permits from the county and another Permission To Operate from your utility company. If solar codes have changed since original install, the original part of the solar would have to be upgraded to those.
For example; in our area, the code changed to not allow solar panels within 2' of any ridge on the roof. This is to allow firemen to cut holes in the roof in case of fire that they need to ventilate the attic. If the original install had the panels closer than 2', they would have to be relocated.
The problem with the micro inverters on each panel is that when they fail, it will be a trip each time onto the roof. By co-locating to a central inverter panel, and on the ground, your roof is spared.
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 09:46 PM
|
#49
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,358
|
We cut our energy usage in half just with odds and ends kinds of changes, ideas from the book The Home Energy Diet, energy star appliances, and going around with a Kill a Watt. Our energy use is low enough now that the payback period for on the grid solar is too far out to make it worthwhile for us. We've watched the solar sales guys skip our house now when they go door to door.
I do like the idea of using solar and we'd get the panels if the price comes down. Until then I use what solar I can - drying racks for laundry, rechargeable batteries with a solar charger, solar outdoor lights, solar flashlights and camping lights. Next up I'm going to buy a solar oven, small solar panels (off grid), solar kettle and dehydrator for emergencies and just kind of playing around with.
__________________
Even clouds seem bright and breezy, 'Cause the livin' is free and easy, See the rat race in a new way, Like you're wakin' up to a new day (Dr. Tarr and Professor Fether lyrics, Alan Parsons Project, based on an EA Poe story)
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 09:58 PM
|
#50
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,745
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort
We cut our energy usage in half just with odds and ends kinds of changes, ideas from the book The Home Energy Diet, energy star appliances, and going around with a Kill a Watt. Our energy use is low enough now that the payback period for on the grid solar is too far out to make it worthwhile for us. We've watched the solar sales guys skip our house now when they go door to door.
I do like the idea of using solar and we'd get the panels if the price comes down. Until then I use what solar I can - drying racks for laundry, rechargeable batteries with a solar charger, solar outdoor lights, solar flashlights and camping lights. Next up I'm going to buy a solar oven, small solar panels (off grid), solar kettle and dehydrator for emergencies and just kind of playing around with.
|
Hmm, I am going to look at your approach. My monthly electric usage does not amount to justify installing solar panels.
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 10:05 PM
|
#51
|
Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 59
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimnjana
1 . 30% Tax credit only applies to solar, not entire project.
2. Lot of money to save about 50 or 60 bucks a month.
3. I have radiant barrier. Never again. Roof leaks go undetected.
4. Look at ductless system if you are gonna throw that much into improving existing hvac.
5. One outfit doing all ? What are they experts at? I think I would get separate quotes.
6. Good luck with the 25 year warranty.
|
1. Interesting point. The wording says it also includes "installation costs", so it may be a little shady if they're going to claim the entire bill as an installation cost. I wonder if this is also why the seller uses language like "designing the system" and doesn't seem interested in disclosing specific component model numbers and prices.
2. I figured at first maybe 50% savings, or $100/mo. Which yes, is a lot of months to make that savings worth it. But given that power companies even have policies about giving credit back for excess energy produced on the grid, I think that a lone is indicating people really are entering that situation -- of saving like 90% of their electric cost, and even getting credit.
3. Do you have a lot of tree's? On a 2nd story here, and not a lot of tree's. But valid point, the gradient barrier is mostly static, but indirectly has a maintenance cost (as removing it for maintenance probably means replacement).
4. Will do! TY
5. Yes, one outfit -- but yes, they are managing the associated sub-contractors, coordinating the work and taking the responsibility if things go wrong (single point of contact to fix any part of the "system"). I think they try to justify the markup in price by this; they recognize that they "aren't cheap" because that's how they'll keep the doors open for 25+ years. I take it as a similar thing with Apple -- expensive products, that helps pays for a healthy longer term support network. Not trying to fully defend the concept, but they have been around 14 years (many solar shops probably have 10+ years now established).
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 10:20 PM
|
#52
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,110
|
I think your point 5 is more likely how they’re camouflaging adding all those extras into the solar bundle and selling a 30% ‘discount’ in the form of tax savings. Add in all the people who will take their financing options and it can boost the average ticket price considerably.
I would suggest you carefully read the tax code. Certain items can be bundled in to a solar install and receive the credit, if they are a necessary part of the system (eg roof work), but I think the items you’re talking about are definitely pushing the envelope.
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 10:23 PM
|
#53
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidstar
... My average usage is (for the past 3 years) roughly 2 KWH/month...
|
No. Even a bitty incandescent night bulb uses more than 2 kWh/month.
A 5W night bulb left on all the time uses 5 W x 24hrs/day x 30days/month = 3,600 Wh or 3.6kWh/month.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 10:30 PM
|
#54
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,886
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidstar
That's fair! We covered some that already: The 3 kW system by itself is 10 panels, or roughly $12K. My average usage is (for the past 3 years) roughly 2 KWH/month. ....
|
These numbers make no sense. Maybe it's a typo, but it's late and I'm not up to trying to decode what you wrote.
If you are serious about this, and really want help, provide good numbers.
Hint: @ roughly 10 cents per kWh, 2 kWh/month is about 20 cents per month. I don't know what you meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidstar
...
I also trust some of the testimonial from others (coworkers, friends) who have installed solar, and gotten down to $18 bill, or even gotten a credit due to producing more electricity than consume. ...
|
Meaningless until you know the full story on their numbers, and your numbers. This isn't about someone else's numbers, it's about your numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidstar
... If my roof can physically fit 20 panels, then it doesn't really matter how inefficient the appliances are: the sun is providing free energy. ...
|
This thinking will not get you to a useful answer. The sun might be providing free energy, but you have to pay the installation costs to use it. So making that free energy useful is not free. It's like saying oil is free, cause it's in the ground you own. Oh, I need to build a driller (panels), pump (inverter), and refinery (grid connection or storage) to use it - now 'free' became expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidstar
... Get the panels first, see if they actually help ....
|
You don't need to get them to see if they help. It can be calculated, quite easily for rough numbers.
-ERD50
|
|
|
07-03-2019, 10:56 PM
|
#55
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,395
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidstar
....... My average usage is (for the past 3 years) roughly 2 KWH/month.....
|
Your first post on this thread threw me for a loop for a little bit, until I realized that you are missing a "K". You are meaning 2,000 KWHr/month, which could also be represented as 2k KWHr/month. You gave enough info in the first post for me to work backwards to figure out your intent.
Carry on!
__________________
-- Telly, the D-I-Y guy --
Two fools dancing on the hands of time
|
|
|
07-04-2019, 12:27 AM
|
#56
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
|
Where I am, a 3kW system (10 panels of 300W each) will produce about 500 kWh/month in mid summer. In the mid winter, it drops to 300 kWh/month. That's for south-facing panels, tilted at 20 deg.
As mentioned in an earlier post, my house of 2,700 sq.ft. uses 2,600 kWh/month in August, dropping to 900 kWh/month in December.
That means to produce what I use, I would need 5x the panels in the summer, and 3x panels in the winter. I can fit 50 panels on my entire roof, but they would be facing all different directions, and impossible to mount due to the roof line.
PS. I currently have 20 panels with 5.5kW total rating. They are ground-mounted in the backyard, and are producing about 25 kWh/day. The production is below expectation even though they are facing south perfectly. It's because 1/2 of the panels are shaded by a neighbor's tree in the afternoon. In another month or two, the sun angle will change and the shading situation will improve. I hope to get closer to the theoretical output then.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
|
|
|
07-04-2019, 12:33 AM
|
#57
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,358
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnplunder
Hmm, I am going to look at your approach. My monthly electric usage does not amount to justify installing solar panels.
|
If you are on PG&E, because of the tiered rates, a 50% usage cut can mean an even bigger percent reduction in the bill amount because you're eliminating the most expensive kwhs.
__________________
Even clouds seem bright and breezy, 'Cause the livin' is free and easy, See the rat race in a new way, Like you're wakin' up to a new day (Dr. Tarr and Professor Fether lyrics, Alan Parsons Project, based on an EA Poe story)
|
|
|
07-04-2019, 06:37 AM
|
#58
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Red Rock Country
Posts: 1,928
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by voidstar
That's fair! We covered some that already: The 3 kW system by itself is 10 panels, or roughly $12K. My average usage is (for the past 3 years) roughly 2 KWH/month.
|
You appear to be making a serious error in estimating how much energy your 3kW system will produce. The 3 kW represents the maximum power under a standard set of optimum conditions that your system will produce. But your system will rarely if ever attain that power level. In addition, for much of a 24 hr day it will be producing nothing at all. The 6.9 kW system on my Phoenix home produces between 12,000 and 13,000 kWh per year which averages to around 1,000 kWh a month. As you would expect, Phoenix is great for solar. You will be lucky to generate 550 kWh a month with your system. Google PVWatts and input your system numbers in their calculator to see what you might expect in the way of energy production.
|
|
|
07-04-2019, 08:40 AM
|
#59
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
|
Even in mid-summer when I have 15 hours of sunlight, because the sun angle changes through the day, it is equivalent to having only 5 to 6 hours of direct sunlight.
And so, 1 kW worth of panel will produce 5 to 6 kWh a day in the summer. And that is with south-facing panels with no shading.
Suppose you have sufficient batteries to store it to use through the night, that 5 kWh spreading over a 24-hour period means a meager 200W continuous load.
Lithium batteries for RV use are currently going for $500 to $1000 per kWh.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
|
|
|
07-04-2019, 09:11 AM
|
#60
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: City
Posts: 10,351
|
OP: I will admit that I have not studied every post, but generally I think you are getting good advice. My impressions (from many years in project management):
There are too many ingredients in your soup and many of them look very expensive. You would not spend $40K on a car without doing extensive research. Get one or two more package quotations if you like but take the time to get quotations on the various ingredients from specialist vendors. The AC, water heater, radient barrier, etc. do not care that there might be solar panels on the roof and neither do the specialist companies that install them.
If you do find that one of the "bundled" ingredients in your bid is significantly overpriced, drop this vendor like a hot rock. Never do business with people that you know you cannot trust.
Re "25 year warranty" who is backing this warranty? An insurance company? Only the installing company? If the latter, your warranty position is "unsecured creditor." Has the company even been in business for 25 years?
The plural of "testimonial," like the plural of "anecdote," is not "data." First of all, confirmation bias makes people want to believe that they have done a good thing. Second, those who have sunk a bunch of money into solar and gotten far less than they were promised are not talking about it or posting about it.
Finally, don't do this stuff on the back of an envelope. If you don't know how to use Excel for present value calculations, then find someone who can help you. Even if you have to pay a little bit, you will almost certainly get it back by analyzing the ingredients in your soup individually and rejecting the ones that are bad investments.
Ignore all promises of savings that the salesperson will not put in writing. If no written promises, no deal.
Using your retirement money? Ack !!!!!!!!!
Re "hear me out ... " said repeatedly -- you already know this is a bad deal as structured. You are looking for someone to tell you it isn't. Not me.
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Threads
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
» Quick Links
|
|
|