More on Overseas Medical Care...

[REWahoo]

India luring Westerners with low-cost surgeries

10:26 PM CST on Tuesday, November 15, 2005

By JIM LANDERS / The Dallas Morning News

NEW DELHI – After his third heart attack, 60-year-old Carlo Gislimberti faced a terrible choice.

Unable to get health insurance since 1992, the New Mexico restaurateur could get surgery in Albuquerque for $120,000. Or he could "wait on fortune's limb" for five years until he was eligible for Medicare.

Doctors told him he had only months to act.

"Either I'd die of a heart attack or of the financial burden," Mr. Gislimberti said. "You think there's no way out."

<snip>

But he found a less expensive and immediate alternative in India. In contrast to the squalor along urban alleyways here, specialty hospitals offer advanced surgeries in conditions touted as equal to or better than those at hospitals in America, and at a fraction of the cost.

<snip>

...he had a triple bypass. The unclogged arteries freed him to breathe easily for the first time in years.

His wife, Siobhan Gislimberti, paid the $15,000 bill with her American Express card.


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/111605dnbusmedtours.112ac4ae.html

 

[Nords]

His wife, Siobhan Gislimberti, paid the $15,000 bill with her American Express card.

Priceless.

Or should that be, "Don't leave home without it"?

 

[ESRBob]

I think this is a great example of the choices that are opening up in the new flat world, and in this case, can benefit ERs.

I'm sure many of us have had the experience of defending early retirement to someone, point by point, but when it comes to health insurance or long term healthcare costs, they feel, "aha! we've got you" -- that they've found some flaw in the plan.

Getting a triple bypass in India for 15k in a state-of-the-art clinic, by a highly skilled Indian surgeon (after all, how many of the physicians in our major medical centers are foreign -- probably about 60%?) is one more answer to the question of how we're going to survive in the long run without a GM-caliber highly-secure corporate healthcare insurance plan to see us through our graying years.

 

[Eagle43]

This is great.  Wonder if they do cosmetic surgery.  DW keeps hinting she wants to go to Costa Rica for such, and I am afraid of something going wrong.  Maybe India would be a better location.

 

[uncledrz]

I agree that medical care in the United States is expensive in relation to other parts of the world.

I do question, however, the quality of the care available to the fly in and surgery crowd. It is hard enough to find a good doctor/dentist/medical center in a new state much less another country. I don't know, at this stage with the information available, if I would feel comfortable going to India to have surgery which could be done in the States. As more information (education/hospital standards/facilities/experience, etc) become available I might change on this.

Uncledrz

 

[Texas Proud]

This is great.  Wonder if they do cosmetic surgery.  DW keeps hinting she wants to go to Costa Rica for such, and I am afraid of something going wrong.  Maybe India would be a better location. 

The answer is yes... and the vacation is 'free' when you consider the savings...

 

[Texas Proud]

I agree that medical care in the United States is expensive in relation to other parts of the world. 

I do question, however, the quality of the care available to the fly in and surgery crowd.  It is hard enough to find a good doctor/dentist/medical center in a new state much less another country.  I don't know, at this stage with the information available, if I would feel comfortable going to India to have surgery which could be done in the States.  As more information (education/hospital standards/facilities/experience, etc) become available I might change on this.

Uncledrz

Uncle,

The program that I saw on this on one of those 'news magazine' shows talked to many doctors... most of them were at the top of their field and had worked in major hospitals in the U.S... they just wanted to go back to their own country and live... they make very good money for their country and you still get a good doctor..

What they did not say is how many doctors are 'bad'... just like here there has to be some there..

 

[astromeria]

I expect the prices will go up as more Americans go for the foreign option. Get yer bypass now--hurry! hurry!

 

[pbrane]

"This is great.  Wonder if they do cosmetic surgery.  DW keeps hinting she wants to go to Costa Rica for such, and I am afraid of something going wrong.  Maybe India would be a better location."


I think a lot of people go to Thailand for cosmetic surgery. Venezuela and Argentina might be worth researching too.

 

[Eagle43]

This belongs in this thread...

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/52/Healthcare_overseas.html

Begins with Thailand...
Quote
It’s been two years since you’ve had a physical exam. You need to have your vision checked and your teeth cleaned. But you are one of 44,000,000 U.S. citizens without health insurance.
Who ya gonna call?

Your local travel agency for an airplane ticket to Thailand - or a handful of other developing countries with top-rate medical care at rock-bottom prices.
Unquote... plenty more to the article...

 

[Honkie]

Guess this would be a good spot for a true life comparison.

Yesterday I had a crown fitted to a rear molar. Last week, I had an initial visit for for preparatory work (about 30 mins), then a 45 minute visit for other bits of stuff and cleaning plus taking the impression for the crown. Then yesterday I had the crown finally fitted in place, took around 15 minutes.

Each appointment was made less than a week before, I was seen by the dentist on time for each appointment, no waiting.

Total Cost: US$500.

The dentist is in private practice here in Hong Kong.

How does this compare with other locations??

Cheers

Honkie

 

[vic]

How does this compare with other locations??

~ $900 for one crown a few weeks ago here is the USA.

 

[ESRBob]

$1100 or $1200 for a gold crown here (NY Suburbs) on the same schedule. $120 to glue it back in if it pops out when I am flossing. Fits great, though.

 

[brewer12345]

Uncle,

The program that I saw on this on one of those 'news magazine' shows talked to many doctors... most of them were at the top of their field and had worked in major hospitals in the U.S...  they just wanted to go back to their own country and live...  they make very good money for their country and you still get a good doctor..

What they did not say is how many doctors are 'bad'... just like here there has to be some there..

Heck, I go to an Indian doctor here in the states, and I think she is excellent.

 

[justin]

Just paid for DW's root canal - $1000; crown - $1075. Right before she got dental insurance...

 

[Honkie]

Just paid for DW's root canal - $1000; crown - $1075. Right before she got dental insurance...

Interesing, so from the couple of examples it seems we are paying approximatly half the price.

Our dentist is Chinese, but studied and qualified in the UK. Most of the medical professionals here either trained at Hong Kong U, or in the UK, Ireland or Australia witha few in the US and Canada.
We can actually get all this treatment FREE in the local public health system, but with our company insurance paying we go to this dentist in the building across the street from the office. If the dental insurance is ever lost I would have no problems with the public system - before the insurance, I had a root canal done for free, government clinic, great lady dentist, no waiting, no charge and no problems with it for 6 years.

Cheers
Honkie

 

[Billy]

Honkie

How does this compare with other locations??

My BIL got X-rays, 2 gold crowns with posts inserted last month here in Chiang Mai. $610 USD

Texas Proud

What they did not say is how many doctors are 'bad'... just like here there has to be some there..

We believe all doctors should get ratings (like the Michelin Guide to Restaurants) or post their 'scores' like sports teams. Why would you want to go to a heart surgeon who is 0-10? Unless you believe he is due for a win..   

All kidding aside. Unless you hear something from another patient, no one is going to tell you how a doctor rates... and this is valuable information to any consumer.

Heck they do restaurant ratings on TV, consumer reports in magazines, book reviews, movie reviews -- and this isn't life threatening information like info on a doctor would be... What's with the secrecy? Anybody know?

Uncledrz

I do question, however, the quality of the care available to the fly in and surgery crowd.  It is hard enough to find a good doctor/dentist/medical center in a new state much less another country.  I don't know, at this stage with the information available, if I would feel comfortable going to India to have surgery which could be done in the States.  As more information (education/hospital standards/facilities/experience, etc) become available I might change on this.

The doctors I have seen here in Asia are all computer connected. I enter at the registration desk, and they send the info immediately via computer to the doctor. The nurse running the computer at the particular doctor I am visiting knows my name, why I am there, and my physical chart follows in moments. No mysteries, no long waits. Efficient, informative, clean, friendly.  8)

Check out our Medical Link on our website, as well as Preferred Links: Medical Options. the US is great, just not the only player in the game...

Akaisha
Author, The Adventurer's Guide to Early Retirement
www.RetireEarlyLifestyle.com

 

[Lancelot]

My first trip to the dentist (Thailand) cost me $16.25; $7.50 to have my teeth cleaned and $8.75 to have a filling replaced, in a small Thai dental clinic.

A buddy of mine had three fillings replaced in Pattaya for $10/filling.

A guy living in my building took his wife to the local hospital for a routine cleaning (most Thai hospitals have a dental clinic too) and it set him back $20.

I had a complete physical in the same hospital (blood/urine tests, chest exray, EKG, consultation with the doc) for $95.

Lance

 

[haha]

Heck they do restaurant ratings on TV, consumer reports in magazines, book reviews, movie reviews -- and this isn't life threatening information like info on a doctor would be... What's with the secrecy? Anybody know?

They have a cozy system. There is plenty of very high priced work for everybody.
Obviously, some are very much better than others. The "others" have a strong interest in keeping that hidden, after all they have a lot of loans to amortize!

I would imagine if some surgeon started advertising, "Come to me for your bypass, St Simpoleton's across town kills 1 out of three patients, while we rarely lose anybody" pretty soon the medical society would find a way to get his license pulled.

Ha

 

[Nords]

We believe all doctors should get ratings (like the Michelin Guide to Restaurants) or post their 'scores' like sports teams. Why would you want to go to a heart surgeon who is 0-10? Unless you believe he is due for a win..   

All kidding aside. Unless you hear something from another patient, no one is going to tell you how a doctor rates... and this is valuable information to any consumer.

What's with the secrecy? Anybody know?

I think it's because 50% of the doctors in America graduated in the lower half of their medical school. Notice that their diplomas never include GPAs or class standing?

But seriously, a surgeon's book "Complications" is a real eye-opener. There aren't any medical police who'll swoop in and suspend a surgeon before they make yet another fatal mistake. Hospital review boards are very slow to act (liability concerns) and will only grudgingly get moving for the most egregious mistakes (or malpractice verdicts). I bet the field is even less regulated than Billy's article on full-service brokers!

The doctors I have seen here in Asia are all computer connected. I enter at the registration desk, and they send the info immediately via computer to the doctor. The nurse running the computer at the particular doctor I am visiting knows my name, why I am there, and my physical chart follows in moments. No mysteries, no long waits. Efficient, informative, clean, friendly. 8)

I wonder how secure these wonderful networks are? I imagine that story on CNN would shortly be followed by another story on how hackers are searching medical databases to send spam to Viagra recipients...

 

[Arif]

When we went on vacation to Panama 2 years ago my son's (he was 2) eyes started bothering him. He cried and he wouldn't open his eyes. We took him to the local Children's hospital and was immediately seen by a doctor who examined him and prescribed eye drops. As I was getting ready to pull out my Tricare card the clerk gave me a bill for $5. I slowly put my card away and pulled out $5. Not sure how much that would of cost without insurance in the US but I am 100% sure it would be a little more than $5.

 

[Billy]

HA said:

I would imagine if some surgeon started advertising, "Come to me for your bypass, St Simpoleton's across town kills 1 out of three patients, while we rarely lose anybody" pretty soon the medical society would find a way to get his license pulled.

I understand your point there, Ha. I believe the way to approach this 'advertizing' would be not to tear someone else's record down, but rather take the  novel approach of saying what it is that you offer that is different from the others, such as:

"Our staff is qualified in this manner or that, we offer gourmet hospital meals for the patient as well as in our cafeteria, so you don't feel you are in a hospital  (don't laugh, the hospitals here in Thailand have hired famous chefs!  ) we have a workout room so while you are waiting you can work off your stress (the wording needs some work here!  8)  ). We offer WiFi, counseling services for the bereaved, courses on medicine intreractions, how to read your bill when we send it to you, we will explain the medical codes used...        offer wellness programs (does your current doctor/hospital do so?)

Or offer to have a doctor explain to you why he/she should be your doctor. He/She should be applying for your services, not us begging to be let in. Even the idea of having soothing music or a fountain in waiting rooms seems out-of-the-box in some US care facilities...      You don't need fabulous art, but a real plant or several would be nice.   

My whole point is that we as the consumer feel 'so lucky even to have gotten in to see the doctor' that we have lost perspective. In all honesty, I am not joking here.

I recently visited a chronic pain facility in a prestigious city in California. The place was barren, cold, disorganized. Not a plant to be seen, or poster on the wall, no music of any kind and the staff looked like they were the ones in chronic pain. The doctor had to shout for the patient's medical records and list of medications, which the staff took another 10 minutes to find...  I was horrified. 

This place did not instill confidence in me, let alone the friend I accompanied who needed their service. She was due for major back surgery, and I felt very uncomfortable leaving her in their 'care.'

This city is wealthy, but the place looked like a slum - gray walls, dingy, dreary. How can one believe they can get out of chronic pain when even going to this place was pain-full?

Nords:

I think it's because 50% of the doctors in America graduated in the lower half of their medical school.  Notice that their diplomas never include GPAs or class standing?

Right..... therefore the 'proof should be in the pudding.'  Our approach should be "why would I come to you for advice? What can you offer me?" We don't just let anyone fix our car, or watch our children, or do our taxes... In the medical field I believe it's all backwards. They have us begging, yet we are the ones who are paying. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Nords:

But seriously, a surgeon's book "Complications" is a real eye-opener.  There aren't any medical police who'll swoop in and suspend a surgeon before they make yet another fatal mistake.  Hospital review boards are very slow to act (liability concerns) and will only grudgingly get moving for the most egregious mistakes (or malpractice verdicts).

 

(I should read that book!) Here we are again with the doctors, hospitals and review boards -- not concerned about the patient's wellbeing, but rather how much they could be sued for. It's a money issue, not a health issue.

Nords

I wonder how secure these wonderful networks are?  I imagine that story on CNN would shortly be followed by another story on how hackers are searching medical databases to send spam to Viagra recipients...

Everything in life has a trade off. Not having the computer connected from the reception office to the doctor you are seeing in the hospital or clinic is old technology. Pure and simple. 

These files in the offices get lost and misplaced all the time. When you go from one doctor to another (say a specialist) you have the week's waiting period or more for the first one to send your records by courier or mail to the second one, plus the expense of the first one to copy your records so they don't get lost... All this adds to the administrative cost, taking your time as well, and increases insurance costs.

Why not keep your own copies of your medical records? 

I'm not afraid of the idea of hackers sending spam to Viagra recipients, but I am afraid of increasing health insurance costs, without us consumers doing anything about it...

We need dialogue and willingness to consider creative solutions in the States.

Akaisha
Author, The Adventurer's Guide to Early Retirement
www.RetireEarlyLifestyle.com

 

[dougdo]

My mother briefly considered India for her hip transplant. And as we're Canadian it wasn't about the cost but to get the specific surgical technique she wanted and get around the waiting lists. She did end up getting it done in Vancouver but still had to pay $6000 for the prosthesis she wanted which was considered a luxury item (over the usual plastic one she got).

I still wish one could get whatever one needed at home but even in the rich countries with public medicine there's always a limit to what the public system can provide. Part of the reason why the US system is so expensive is that there are still fewer limits (if you're well insured) on what you can get.

There is a line though isn't there? When a child in the developing world dies for lack of a $100 treatment and we spend $1,000,000 to extend the life of someone for 6 months who's going to die anyway. Damn hard line to draw though.

 

[Howard]

dougdo, why did you want a non metal Hip, are you under the impression that she would not need a revision?

I am very familiar with Orthopedics and Impants, I would have no problem with a metal joint??

You are in BC, there is a very good Orthopod in Campbell River, Dr Deke Botsford, a real bright star he preferred the lifestyle out West to Fame and Glory.

 

[Billy]

dougdo:

I still wish one could get whatever one needed at home but even in the rich countries with public medicine there's always a limit to what the public system can provide.

I think there has to be a limit to what the public system can provide. Otherwise taxes would go through the roof. These public systems are not free...  Even if we opened healthcare services up to the free market (which is what I would prefer) there would always be limits...  It's the nature of life.

There is a line though isn't there? When a child in the developing world dies for lack of a $100 treatment and we spend $1,000,000 to extend the life of someone for 6 months who's going to die anyway.  Damn hard line to draw though.

I agree, dougdo...  there is never just 'one' answer.

Akaisha
Author, The Adventurer's Guide to Early Retirement
www.RetireEarlyLifestyle.com