Moved into CCRC today

Well, Harllee, this thread has motivated me to submit a preliminary application today to a CCRC. It's only to determine, roughly, whether I would qualify financially. Before I do the deep dive into whether it makes financial sense for me, or the deeper dive into whether it would be the right thing emotionally and physically, it makes sense to see if it's out of the question (I think I would qualify, but not positive).

I have a timeframe of 3-5 years, so one big fear would be if the Perfect Unit became available before then. This CCRC allows you to be pretty specific about what you want, within their stable of offerings.
 
ChrisC said:
I can assure you we have financial resources to cover $30-40K per month of skilled nursing care at home for at least 20 years without impoverishing ourselves. It helps to have pensions and social security (COLA protected) that throw off $17.5K monhly income, a sizeable investment and retirement portfolio, in which we could draw down, and the cost of a significant portion would be medically deductible.
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With that level of guaranteed income plus a "sizable investment and retirement portfolio", and given the oft cited rule of thumb regarding LTCI (buy it if your net worth is btwn $200k-$2M), why did you even buy LTCI? Simply for endowment purposes?
 
Koolau said:
Just curious. Do folks here have info on pricing for CCRCs. We've so far looked into assisted living places and their prices seem to start around $4K/month for an efficiency with 2 people up to $7K/month for a stand alone "house" on the grounds. IIRC the fee covers all meals.
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I visited one of the "Covia" CCRCs in Sonoma County, California in 2019, and got a price sheet for the type-A care, which included all meals and on-site memory care, if needed. Lots of activities. Beautiful campus. No shared hallways between units, which I liked.

Non-refundable entrance fee ranged from $129k for a 490 square foot studio condo with a carport, up-to $1.2M for a 1800 sq ft house with 2 beds, 2 baths and 2 car garage. Add $31k-$33k to those prices for a 2nd person.

The monthly fee also depended on the size of your unit: $4100-7500/mo with an additional $3500/mo for a 2nd person. If second person dies, then the monthly fee goes down. Monthly prices go up annually, depending on inflation. They quoted those increase as 3-4.9%/year. Nobody gets kicked out if they run out of money. They have an endowment that covers them.

Back then, it cost $1500 to get on the waitlist and there was a 2-3 year wait. You needed to be at least 62 years old to move in.

I visited shortly before the pandemic and big fires in Sonoma/Napa Counties. I hear they had to evacuate the campus twice for fires, but they did not burn down. The 2nd evacuation was a bit sketchy because they were not able to go to their sister campus, due to covid. Instead, everyone was evacuated to the fairgrounds. Since then, I've seen them advertise a lot. Maybe the wait list is down to zero now.

I was interested in moving to this place, but have had second thoughts because of fire risk. At least in California, many of these CCRCs are on the edge of towns, where it's beautiful, but there is a fire risk.
 
Huston55 said:
With that level of guaranteed income plus a "sizable investment and retirement portfolio", and given the oft cited rule of thumb regarding LTCI (buy it if your net worth is btwn $200k-$2M), why did you even buy LTCI? Simply for endowment purposes?
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I can assure you that we have many times of the $200k-$2M range that you mentioned as the rule of thumb. Kiplinger said $1.5M to $3M of investible assets. https://www.kiplinger.com/retiremen...e Insurance (LTC,compared to what you receive.

We have seen the mindset of people who have alot of money but without LTCI and refused to pay for care because they are from the Depression era or that they want to leave all of their money to their heirs. Instead of using their money to improve their quality of life, they neglect their own care. People with LTCI are more likely to start the benefits when they need it because they have paid into it and don't cost them much more to use the LTCI services.
 
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I get it that some people don't want to move into a CCRC for whatever reason and that it fine. There are not enough CCRCs anyway. But I would like to keep my thread on track and report on my first hand experiences at my CCRC. For those of you who want to discuss why you don't want to go to a CCRC, why don't you start your own thread?
 
Huston55 said:
Alex-

Try reviewing this post from the E-R.org stickies/FAQs. It applies to CCRCs in general but, has a NorCal orientation, which should be even more applicable to you. It is a good starting point.

Best!

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f47/ccrc-reference-material-faqs-86124.html
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Huston55, thank you so much for the link. I plan to study it carefully.
Meantime, it is very unlikely I would be interested in anything located in Northern California. The cost is a primary reason, along with a few others.
 
slowsaver said:
I visited one of the "Covia" CCRCs in Sonoma County, California in 2019, and got a price sheet for the type-A care, which included all meals and on-site memory care, if needed. Lots of activities. Beautiful campus. No shared hallways between units, which I liked.

Non-refundable entrance fee ranged from $129k for a 490 square foot studio condo with a carport, up-to $1.2M for a 1800 sq ft house with 2 beds, 2 baths and 2 car garage. Add $31k-$33k to those prices for a 2nd person.

The monthly fee also depended on the size of your unit: $4100-7500/mo with an additional $3500/mo for a 2nd person. If second person dies, then the monthly fee goes down. Monthly prices go up annually, depending on inflation. They quoted those increase as 3-4.9%/year. Nobody gets kicked out if they run out of money. They have an endowment that covers them.

Back then, it cost $1500 to get on the waitlist and there was a 2-3 year wait. You needed to be at least 62 years old to move in.

I visited shortly before the pandemic and big fires in Sonoma/Napa Counties. I hear they had to evacuate the campus twice for fires, but they did not burn down. The 2nd evacuation was a bit sketchy because they were not able to go to their sister campus, due to covid. Instead, everyone was evacuated to the fairgrounds. Since then, I've seen them advertise a lot. Maybe the wait list is down to zero now.

I was interested in moving to this place, but have had second thoughts because of fire risk. At least in California, many of these CCRCs are on the edge of towns, where it's beautiful, but there is a fire risk.
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Thanks for this info. It seems to fit into what we have learned so far.
 
braumeister said:
Well, I went about it differently. To me it was more important to first look at where I might be happy and only then eliminate the ones with contracts or fees that didn't work well for me.
  1. identified parts of the country where I would be comfortable spending my final years. Climate, access to cities, transportation, etc.
  2. found CCRCs in those areas that looked attractive based on their websites.
  3. contacted those and got their brochures, housing types, fee structure, contract types, etc. Easy to do and they are always happy to send you everything they have.
  4. researched their financial situation. Also easy to do and occasionally eye-opening.
  5. narrowed my choices down to a few, visited them, and talked with both staff and residents. That was enjoyable and extremely useful.
  6. put myself on the wait lists for my top choices.
I'm currently on the list at four different, widely separated places, and believe I would be happy at any of them.

But I understand that we all go about such decisions in our own way. This is just how I looked at it.
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Heh, heh, somehow this doesn't surprise me, braumeister.:) Do all the research and then cover all the bases.

Many could learn from this.
 
Huston55 said:
With that level of guaranteed income plus a "sizable investment and retirement portfolio", and given the oft cited rule of thumb regarding LTCI (buy it if your net worth is btwn $200k-$2M), why did you even buy LTCI? Simply for endowment purposes?
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A number of reasons, but suffice it to say I bought my policy at age 48 in 2002 from the Federal Long Term Care Insurance Program when the program first became available to Federal employees and it seemed like a good deal to me of then modest income, net worth, and salary, in case my wife or I became seriously disabled back then with 3 children; the premiums were very manageable; and the policies appeared to be carefully tailored for LTC. I buy insurance to transfer risk and convenience of outsourcing payment and

I continue to evaluate whether we should continue our LTCi. Thus far, I’ve gotten my money’s worth in peace of mind and transactionally it’s leveraging about $2k in annual premiums for $550k in LTC coverage for me, with modest inflation adjustments. I don’t feel I’m flushing money down the toilet with LTCi, despite some of the horror stories you occasionally hear about claims denials.
 
harllee said:
For those of you who want to discuss why you don't want to go to a CCRC, why don't you start your own thread?
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+1 Well said harllee! There seem to be several of us very interested in your experiences there. Please keep it coming.
 
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Resale shop--There is a resale shop in the CCRC that accepts donations from residents of everything except clothes and books (book donations should go to the CCRC library). It is run by residents and the proceeds go help fund the CCRC Trust fund which pays costs for residents who run out of money and it also funds scholarships for staff education. Last year the shop made about $50,000. It is a charity so donations are tax deductible. We decided we have an extra TV and a few other items we do not need that we are donating. I want a patio umbrella but they don't have one of those right now. The shop is open 2 days a week and it seems to be a hub of activity.
 
harllee said:
Resale shop--There is a resale shop in the CCRC that accepts donations from residents of everything except clothes and books (book donations should go to the CCRC library). It is run by residents and the proceeds go help fund the CCRC Trust fund which pays costs for residents who run out of money and it also funds scholarships for staff education. Last year the shop made about $50,000. It is a charity so donations are tax deductible. We decided we have an extra TV and a few other items we do not need that we are donating. I want a patio umbrella but they don't have one of those right now. The shop is open 2 days a week and it seems to be a hub of activity.
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What a great idea. I bet it's also a hub of social activity. "I'll meet you at the Resale shop."
 
Koolau said:
Just running a back-of-the-envelope comparison of our living costs vs the figures you supplied.

Assume you live 20 more years: Then your $350K becomes $1,500/month added to your $7000. Opportunity cost (I'll say 5% to be conservative) on $350 is about $1500/month. Add it up and that's about $10K/month.

I just wanted to compare that to us if we stayed in place and paid for help (medical - visiting nurse, etc.)

Our condo might sell for as much as 700K (I can't even believe I'm saying that. :facepalm:)

Opportunity cost at 5% would be about $3000/month.

HOA dues: Round up to $1000/month

Internal maintenance - negligible - less than $100/mo

Utilities - negligible.

Food (because a CCRC feeds you for your fees, I think) $700/mo

Total: $4700 (let's round to $5000/month)

So, that would give us $5K/month to hire "visiting nurses" or some such to stop by with shots or therapy or vitals, etc. I think that could be done.

Now, as far as amenities: Probably no comparison to what a CCRC has (I've seen the inside of the best CCRC on our Island. It is fabulous and has all kinds of things to do.) Would I pay $5K/month for those amenities. Probably not. If I were there anyway, would I use them and appreciate them. Absolutely.

But my point is we really like it where we are and would like to age in place as long as possible. We're rolling the dice that neither of us has to go to a "facility" (nursing or whatever.) IF we do, we do have pretty good LTCI (at least 3 years - maybe 4.) And our LTCI has provision for home care (of course, it's pretty restrictive - meaning hard to qualify, I'm sure.)

I throw all this out NOT as any criticism for those seeking to live in a CCRC. As I said, I've visited a couple and they look wonderful. My impression of the staff is that they are caring and capable. The food is wonderful. I would say they are like living in a first class hotel - with even more amenities.

SO, please don't take my comparison the wrong way. I'm just trying (for myself) to figure the odds and costs and perhaps some internal* things. Let me know if I'm off base on costs or otherwise in my thinking.

*internal things: I guess I think that when I move into a CCRC or even an Assisted Living place, that's sorta like saying "This is it. The last stop before the grave yard." I know that's silly, but I'm trying to be honest here. I think it plays with my head when I think about giving up our wonderful condo and moving to "the final destination" so to speak.:blush:

Again, please assume best motives on my part and no criticism. I applaud those who have found a CCRC that meets their needs and they can afford. I hope you all have a joyous time in your new homes.:flowers:
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Thanks for your financial calculations & perspective on "internal things," K. These hit very close to home.
 
Koolau said:
Just running a back-of-the-envelope comparison of our living costs vs the figures you supplied.

Assume you live 20 more years: Then your $350K becomes $1,500/month added to your $7000. Opportunity cost (I'll say 5% to be conservative) on $350 is about $1500/month. Add it up and that's about $10K/month.

I just wanted to compare that to us if we stayed in place and paid for help (medical - visiting nurse, etc.)

Our condo might sell for as much as 700K (I can't even believe I'm saying that. :facepalm:)

Opportunity cost at 5% would be about $3000/month.

HOA dues: Round up to $1000/month

Internal maintenance - negligible - less than $100/mo

Utilities - negligible.

Food (because a CCRC feeds you for your fees, I think) $700/mo

Total: $4700 (let's round to $5000/month)

So, that would give us $5K/month to hire "visiting nurses" or some such to stop by with shots or therapy or vitals, etc. I think that could be done.

Now, as far as amenities: Probably no comparison to what a CCRC has (I've seen the inside of the best CCRC on our Island. It is fabulous and has all kinds of things to do.) Would I pay $5K/month for those amenities. Probably not. If I were there anyway, would I use them and appreciate them. Absolutely.

But my point is we really like it where we are and would like to age in place as long as possible. We're rolling the dice that neither of us has to go to a "facility" (nursing or whatever.) IF we do, we do have pretty good LTCI (at least 3 years - maybe 4.) And our LTCI has provision for home care (of course, it's pretty restrictive - meaning hard to qualify, I'm sure.)

I throw all this out NOT as any criticism for those seeking to live in a CCRC. As I said, I've visited a couple and they look wonderful. My impression of the staff is that they are caring and capable. The food is wonderful. I would say they are like living in a first class hotel - with even more amenities.

SO, please don't take my comparison the wrong way. I'm just trying (for myself) to figure the odds and costs and perhaps some internal* things. Let me know if I'm off base on costs or otherwise in my thinking.

*internal things: I guess I think that when I move into a CCRC or even an Assisted Living place, that's sorta like saying "This is it. The last stop before the grave yard." I know that's silly, but I'm trying to be honest here. I think it plays with my head when I think about giving up our wonderful condo and moving to "the final destination" so to speak.:blush:

Again, please assume best motives on my part and no criticism. I applaud those who have found a CCRC that meets their needs and they can afford. I hope you all have a joyous time in your new homes.:flowers:
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Your condo must have a lot of amenities if it's $1k/ mo? Or does that include a land lease ?
 
teej1985 said:
Your condo must have a lot of amenities if it's $1k/ mo? Or does that include a land lease ?
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Sadly, no. We have a pool. We have very well kept grounds. Hot and cold water is included in that. TV/internet is included in that.

The remainder is maintaining an older building, insuring it, keeping up infrastructure.

The land is fee simple (owned by the owners of each unit on a proportional basis - no lease fees.)

SO, no. Other condos have much nicer amenities - and they charge much more for HOA dues.

It's all part of the price of Paradise.
 
Koolau said:
Sadly, no. We have a pool. We have very well kept grounds. Hot and cold water is included in that. TV/internet is included in that.

The remainder is maintaining an older building, insuring it, keeping up infrastructure.

The land is fee simple (owned by the owners of each unit on a proportional basis - no lease fees.)

SO, no. Other condos have much nicer amenities - and they charge much more for HOA dues.

It's all part of the price of Paradise.
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Interesting- on Maui, it seemed like the HOA's are not nearly that bad except for the newer resorts (say from the 2000s rathe than the 60s through 80s) with lots of short term rentals in them.
 
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teej1985 said:
Interesting- on Maui, it seemed like the HOA's are not nearly that bad except for the newer resorts (say from the 2000s rathe than the 60s through 80s) with lots of short term rentals in them.
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I guess one of our "amenities" is that we do not allow short term rentals. That makes an amazing difference in the noise level and parking issues.

The older a building, the more the HOA dues because of maintenance. Now, new buildings should be building their reserves, but it rarely happens. Then when something happens (spalling repair, painting, hot water boiler repair, elevator repair, etc.) an "assessment" must be made on all owners. I've heard of $10,000 assessments for other buildings that have inadequate reserves built in. YMMV
 
^^^^^^^

I forgot: Many of the condos you find in the resort areas (we're a bedroom community) are two rooms and about 500 SF with one bathroom. There is one bedroom and one living room (that may or may not serve as an extra bed room) plus one bathroom. Our condo building is mostly 2BR 2BA with 1000 SF. So HOA dues are based on SF within a given building.

When we were tourists, we stayed in several hotel/condo buildings in Waikiki. They were all in the 400 to 500 SF range with the 2 rooms and a bath (with kitchenette.)
 
Getting back to my original topic --we have a wonderful fitness center included in our CCRC rent. We had been members of the fitness center pre Covid and are rejoining now. Great classes, including classes geared to older folks, new machines, walking track, saltwater heated indoor pool, wonderful hot tub (we will probably wait until cooler weather for that!). You get a free one hour personal trainer session and then can sign up for more at a reasonable fee. There is also a masseuse at a reasonable fee (need that after all the unpacking). I noticed that the pool has a lift to help handicapped people get it. The fitness center has clean and bright locker rooms. NO CHILDREN ALLOWED !!! I used to be a member at the YMCA and children running wild ruined it. The fitness center is attached to the CCRC by a short breezeway and our apartment is really close to it. No excuse not to use it frequently.

In addition there are some dance classes in the CCRC multipurpose room that I have signed up for--line dancing, Scottish dancing, ballroom dancing, swing. I should be in great shape!
 
I don’t know about gyms after Covid. I’ve relegated to outside walks, brisk pace.

A treadmill would probably be easier on the body. Alas.
 
explanade said:
I don’t know about gyms after Covid. I’ve relegated to outside walks, brisk pace.

A treadmill would probably be easier on the body. Alas.
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It is so hot now where I live outdoor activities like walking or biking are out. The fitness center has a nice walking track that never seems to be crowded so it is probably a good place to exercise if you are concerned about Covid. We have been extra careful about Covid due to DH's health issues but this summer we have gone back to our dancing groups. We love dancing and really missed it so we decided to take that risk.
 
Family member was living independently and alone at age 88 (had lost her spouse 30 years prior). Health was not great, too thin and not eating well. Too much time alone. Fought like crazy to prevent family from moving her to really nice CCRC. Finally agreed. Beautiful unit overlooking a ravine with big windows, large balcony and in a modern building really nice place that seems more like a fancy hotel or resort. Fast forward 11 years she is probably healthier now than she was at 88 and has loved every day of living here. Gained the weight she needed thanks to fantastic food she no longer had to prepare, finally had social interaction with people her age, went on all the day trips and participated in everything offered. Life changing and a very positive outcome.
 
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