My retirement quandaries

[Meadbh]

I see a consistent theme throughout the OP's questions. How does one prepare, psychologically, for retirement when one is already FI?

My first thought is that it would be counterproductive to retire immediately just because the financial numbers work, if the OP enjoys his job. But it is important to plan for the future. Either the OP will retire some day, or he will die first. Possible scenarios include becoming tired of work, developing a health problem, having a family crisis, or being made redundant. Priorities will change. It is better to make the decision to retire following mindful preparation, than to be unprepared and have that decision made by other people.

There are some great strategies in Ernie Zelinski's books "Retire happy, wild and free" and "The joy of not working".

Ernie Zelinski - International Bestselling Author, Innovator, Speaker, and Unconventional Career Expert - Home

[PaddyMac]

I understand a lot of what the OP said because I had some of the same concerns (particularly the loss of identity tied to work).

I think what comes through most strongly is that you need to find out what you are retiring "to" as you already know what you retiring "from". You need to find things that interest you, and perhaps volunteering or teaching feels more like work than fun.

As a computer geek, I tried some art classes a few years back and became hooked. There are so many aspects to art besides painting, so I would start by just taking some classes at your local community college. Try pottery, drawing, wood working, whatever sounds interesting. It's only a few hours a week for a few weeks, and if it's a dud, at least you can say that you tried it. You will also meet lots of new people. Artists do not work 9-5 nor do they "retire", so you won't find the usual megacorp mentality. (Actually, taking art classes is what led me to want to retire early; most of the women I met were older than me and didn't have to work for one reason or another.)

[ER Eddie]

I want to respond to at least some of the thoughtful posts in this thread, which I appreciate. Apologies for giving brief responses, especially to the people who were generous enough to reply in depth, but I'm in the middle of a you-know-what day, and I need to get back to it. But I wanted to reply to a few comments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by target2019 My spouse has worked alongside several highly-regarded MDs in her career. Your self-description reminds me of that. IOW, the job is so rewarding, it is hard to turn away. One fellow went into the office well past the time he was told to give up surgery. He has international recognition, so always plenty of paperwork. But one day the partners had his plants put in the hallway, and changed the lock on his door. An extreme situation, but highlights what might be in store.

lol, I hope it doesn't come to that! And I'm not quite that attached to my work.

To clarify, there have been times on my job, and not too long ago, either, when I was really fed up, and I could think of nothing BUT early retirement. It's part of why I joined this community, as a matter of fact. Things have changed a lot for the better in the last few years, though.

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Originally Posted by marko The one question I will comment on is #7. I think most folks here, myself included, worried a bit about 'what to do with all the free time'. I also think that most folks here who worried about that, myself included, will say this: "That's the last thing to worry about! In a year or two you'll wonder how you had time to go to work".

Yes, I've been reading here for a while, and I see that theme repeatedly: "I don't have enough time to do everything I'd like to do." That's encouraging.

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Originally Posted by Marita40 ereddie, I'm 60, not yet retired, and could have written your post. You laid out the issues that are swirling in my head, but not yet written down, quite well.

Thanks; I'm glad. I think it helped me, too, to just write it out. It can feel confusing, because there are so many issues intertwined. It helps me to get it out on paper (or electronic post, anyhow). It helps me sort them out a little.

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Originally Posted by phil1ben it came down to would I rather spend my time left working (I owned my own firm) or playing.

I like that way of putting it. My job is not play, that's for sure. It's interesting and challenging, but it's also pretty serious.

That's part of why I "fart around" a lot during off hours. Which is not as bad as it sounds, really. Somewhere in one of Tom Hodgkinson's books (How to be Idle, How to be Free) are some good thoughts on the virtues of "just mucking about."

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Originally Posted by travelover I've been retired 10 years. From reading your post, it appears that you are happy working, but feel like you should retire because you are financially able to retire. My suggestion would be to keep on working until you don't enjoy it anymore.

Well, it's not so much that I believe I "should" retire because I'm financially able. I understand that FI doesn't dictate retirement. I do want to retire, for reasons other than FI. It's just that, as I have planned for that retirement, I am coming up against obstacles or reservations in my own mind.

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Originally Posted by samsterdog Good luck with your decision. My thoughts in-line. Cheers.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Lots to think about.

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Originally Posted by bingybear I would not use the "work until you don't enjoy it anymore", but "I'd really like to spend time pursuing something else." If you really have little reason to retire other than you have the money.. don't.

I think my OP must have come across as if I have no reasons for retiring except I'm financially able to. That's not the case. I didn't go in depth into that, because I knew I was already posting quite a lot. So it may have come across more "con" and less "pro" retirement than I actually feel.

There are many reasons for me to want to retire. Off the top of my head:

- opportunity to take classes
- opportunity to deepen my spiritual life
- opportunity to broaden and deepen my social life
- adventure of reinventing myself
- freedom -- not "having to" go to work, being able to do what I want, when I want
- autonomy (very important to me), not having to be under someone else's authority
- doing something new (I like my job but I've been doing it almost 20 years, and there are times it feels like "here we go again")
- opportunity to learn new things, develop new hobbies and interests
- opportunity to be more involved in giving/charitable causes
- more time to take care of my health
- more time to enjoy nature, go on long trips

There is more, but that's what occurs to me at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradaz2488 ... after retirement I realized that I was making the decision more complicated then it really has to be. For me, it is the FREEDOM to do what I want when I want. I do not require a "purpose" in life to be happy. If this make me lazy then so be it... I'm happy .... I do tell people if you honestly "like" your job and it does not impact your health or home life then do not quit and keep banking money until it is the right time. For me, a day of doing nothing is better than a good day at w*rk, which was very rare during my last 3 years at a MegaCorp. If you already reached the FI level then the next step is to really understand what makes you happy and make it happen... Life too short not to be happy. Sorry if I make it sound so simple.. I'm a simple kind of guy..

That's okay, I like keeping it simple. I do have a way of over-complicating things sometimes. There are some aspects of your situation that don't fit mine (e.g., it's important for me to feel like I'm engaged in meaningful activity at least some of the time, and I don't find my work toxic), but your overall point is well taken.

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Originally Posted by Midpack Like others have said, these are individual choices, there aren't any universal right answers. But I do have some thoughts. I retired at 57, 5+ years ago. And I'm a lot like you - need some purpose in life, make lists, somewhat of an introvert, etc. FWIW:

Thanks for your in-depth responses, Midpack. Appreciate you taking the time. Lots of good observations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImaCheesehead I am curious- why does your employer pay you a full time salary for 25 hours of work per week?

I'm salary, so I get paid for getting the job done rather than a particular amount of hours. I've been able to get it done in 25 hours, most of the time. I'm fortunate enough to be able to come and go as I please.

The 25 hours is just at-work time, though. I'm not counting time spent commuting, preparing for work, or reading about work-related subjects at home. I also have days (infrequent) when work stresses me out, and I'm up till 3 a.m. churning. So it's really more than 25.

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Originally Posted by jollystomper I have seen enough friends and colleagues die to realize that dying on the job is something I'd like to avoid, if possible. ... at this point in our lives, time is more valuable than money... and time we have left is more unknown than the money we have. So more and more I want to focus on time, and choosing how I wish to spend it, because of that.

That's a good frame of reference. I do think about mortality a lot. I have always been like that. A couple years ago, I had a medical crisis and almost died; the life/death issue was not so theoretical at that point. You're right, no one knows how much time we have left. That's one of the things pushing me towards retirement.

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Originally Posted by W2R it doesn't sound to me like you are ready to retire yet, since I guess your thoughts of retirement seem to just lead you to thoughts of missing work, and show no interest in doing anything else.

Hopefully, I've clarified that above. I do have an interest in retiring and doing other things. I guess I didn't emphasize that enough in my OP.

It's true that I'm to ready to retire right now. But I do foresee myself retiring in the next 1 to 4 years. I'm trying to prepare for that -- to build a "vision for retirement," so to speak -- but I'm having some questions come up. That's what I was trying to say.

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Originally Posted by travelover In my experience, any number of questions per thread over one is too many. Most of us don't have the patience to slog through a series of questions.

Yes. I was hoping people could just pick out and respond to the individual questions that stirred their interest, rather than feeling as if they had to respond to the whole set.

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Originally Posted by TimSF [COLOR=Magenta]What a great post! You're obviously giving this a great deal of thought and that is a good thing. The others are correct - this is an individual dilemma only you can answer - but, in the spirit of taking your questions at face value, I will give you my perspective.

Thanks, Tim. And thanks for the thoughtful responses. I appreciate them.

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Originally Posted by Meadbh I see a consistent theme throughout the OP's questions. How does one prepare, psychologically, for retirement when one is already FI?

Good call. That's how I see it, too.

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... There are some great strategies in Ernie Zelinski's books "Retire happy, wild and free" and "The joy of not working".

Read them both. Very fun and inspiring books.

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Originally Posted by PaddyMac I think what comes through most strongly is that you need to find out what you are retiring "to" as you already know what you retiring "from". You need to find things that interest you, and perhaps volunteering or teaching feels more like work than fun.

Yup, that indeed is the issue. A vision for what retirement will look like. I've been asking myself these questions for a couple years now, off and on, and I've done plenty of reading and pondering. Sometimes I think I have to get it all figured out, but then I'll remember I can't really do that, and it's going to be a process.

Thank you everyone for your ideas and input!

[TGL405]

You had mentioned an interest in "teaching" in your post. Do have an opportunity to do any mentoring at your current job? That may be a way to find a certain amount of fulfillment or satisfaction while you are still working. I'm sure there are many things others can learn from you.

I'm not retired yet but getting closer and have found alot of satisfaction from mentoring some of the younger folks who still have long careers ahead of them.

[kcowan]

I think you need to take the attitude that everything will be different because it can be.

- you will develop new friends
- you will pursue different hobbies and leisure activities
- you will probably move to a better environment without ties to work (commute, weather)
- you will have more time for some of the things you want to do
- you will eat better
- you will exercise more

These are some of the choices you will have. You may take some or none.

[Rustic23]

REWahoo 1!

[retire2020]

How about working three/four months a year?.....May be one month each quarter. This can give you best of both world.
I just retired on 12/1/2016. I was in pre-sales technical sales and thinking about working last month of each quarter to help close my former MegaCorp deals when it's the busiest time. I do not know if I'll get an opportunity like that but I'll sure inquire about it if my former boss or recruiter calls. But all that after May of this year - taking full six months to celebrate!

[TNBound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jollystomper Now the biggest thing driving me towards retirement is time... just wanting to have the ability to completely control what I do and when I decide to do things. Also, I have seen enough friends and colleagues die to realize that dying on the job is something I'd like to avoid, if possible. DW and I are both very healthy and active, and enjoy each others company... and we know at our ages (DW is 59), none of this is guaranteed to last. So the time element of spending as much time together as we can as a priority So right now, the the major plus for me working is the amount I am paid for what I do. But at this point in our lives, time is more valuable than money... and time we have left is more unknown than the money we have. So more and more I want to focus on time, and choosing how I wish to spend it, because of that.

This sums it up almost to the letter for me. Friday was my last day at work! Woohoo!! I had a great paying job, but guess you could say I'd gotten uncomfortably numb doing it. So for me, I no longer could justify spending any more precious days sitting at a desk doing administrative work I no longer enjoyed or found value in. OP that part of it made my decision easier.

I understand much of how you feel though, but for me I honestly can't wait to have the time to follow my heart in growing my spiritual and humanitarian side. There are lots of things to do that can give you a sense of purpose. So between that, having a small garden for the first time, enjoying nature and a variety of physical activities, I'm ready to re-center and find the things that are really important to me without the time constraints of a job! Good luck to you!

[ER Eddie]

Cool, thanks for your input. I'm still sorting things through. Some of my main takeaways from this thread are:

• Two main factors in determining when to pull the plug: 1) how much do you like or enjoy your work, and 2) what else do you want to do, that work gets in the way of? It's the balance of those two.
• The time isn't right now. But I'll know when it is.
• Developing a social life when retired may be more challenging than I expected. Most people my age will be working.
• If you're not doing the things you imagine doing in retirement (and you could), isn't that a sign that you're not all that interested in them in the first place?
• Test drive activities. e.g., volunteering may not be all that fulfilling (ymmv).
• Maybe do something different entirely (e.g., artistic), rather than some variation on what you've been doing all your career.
• Have a good attitude about it; have confidence that it'll work out.
• Be grateful that you have both financial independence and a job you like.
• A lot of the small-scale jobs I have considered wouldn't provide the social aspect, so I may need to look elsewhere, perhaps teaching.
• If you're doing what you feel like doing, that's not "farting away time." That's using it how you want to.
• Maybe make a pro/con list.

[FreeBear]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jollystomper Now the biggest thing driving me towards retirement is time... just wanting to have the ability to completely control what I do and when I decide to do things. Also, I have seen enough friends and colleagues die to realize that dying on the job is something I'd like to avoid, if possible. DW and I are both very healthy and active, and enjoy each others company... and we know at our ages (DW is 59), none of this is guaranteed to last. So the time element of spending as much time together as we can as a priority, without having to schedule it around work and vacations, is becoming more important. That also applies to socializing out of work - I am by nature an introvert, but I have gotten more involved in things outside of work and have built up a fairly good social network. I have also the benefit of being from a large family that is still very close and friendly. So right now, the the major plus for me working is the amount I am paid for what I do. But at this point in our lives, time is more valuable than money... and time we have left is more unknown than the money we have. So more and more I want to focus on time, and choosing how I wish to spend it, because of that.

Well said!!

Two years into FIRE, our expenses continue to drop slowly and the initial worries about money are subsiding in part because of the realization that we'll probably run out of health and time before we run out of money. It's a bit bittersweet how time seems to move so quickly in FIRE. Two years already well-lived, but gone so quickly. In contrast, time often slowed to a snail's pace at w*rk.

[ER Eddie]

Just a postscript to this thread. I talked a lot in the OP about the engagement, interest, and meaning I find in my work, and how this is a major motivator for me to continue.

Well, I decided to track my actual level of enjoyment/engagement. I ranked it day by day on 0 to 5 scale, with 0 being none at all, 3 being moderate, and 5 being very much (enjoyment/engagement). My ratings were always a 1 (a little) or 2 (somewhat).

So it turns out, I like my job considerably less than I thought I did (ha). Truth is, I go to work mainly for the money and benefits, and because the job is pretty easy right now. The other factors (meaning, engagement, interest, etc.) are nice bonuses, but they are secondary or tertiary factors. They aren't the big deal I thought they were.

Funny how something can sound so persuasive as an idea in my head, but when I look at my actual experience, it can be very different.

[sengsational]

There are lots of happiness studies that suggest when people are engaged (even if it's something they "don't like"), they tend to self-report as happier. For instance, they had one study where the study participants carried a device that would beep at random times and they'd enter how happy they were and what they were doing. Some people were surprised to see that their results showed them less happy "doing something they wanted", like loafing on the couch, versus solving a problem at work.

After reading this thread from the top, I realize how lucky I was to have the SuperMegacorp buy the Megacorp. My fulfilling and fun job changed rapidly enough for me to have a good reason to bail. It's like the difference between the lucky SOB who keels-over from a heart attack as opposed to having a degenerative disease that gets a bit worse each day; a long an painful march toward the inevitable.

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sengsational There are lots of happiness studies that suggest when people are engaged (even if it's something they "don't like"), they tend to self-report as happier... Some people were surprised to see that their results showed them less happy "doing something they wanted", like loafing on the couch, versus solving a problem at work...

When one is busy putting out a fire, he does not feel hot.

[ER Eddie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sengsational There are lots of happiness studies that suggest when people are engaged (even if it's something they "don't like"), they tend to self-report as happier. For instance, they had one study where the study participants carried a device that would beep at random times and they'd enter how happy they were and what they were doing. Some people were surprised to see that their results showed them less happy "doing something they wanted", like loafing on the couch, versus solving a problem at work.

Yes, I remember reading about those studies in Flow -- or at least, that's what you're reminding me of. They called it the experience sampling method. Iirc, they found that even though people thought of work as less pleasurable, the actual experience ratings showed they were often quite engaged/interested (a type of happiness) while at work. Conversely, even though they preferred activities like watching TV, their actual level of engagement, interest, etc. was actually quite low at those points.

I did not do my ratings quite like that (being beeped at random intervals), but I got as close as I could, by paying attention to my actual experience day to day. In my case, I found the opposite. My actual experience was less enjoyable/engaging than I had been thinking of it.

Quote:

After reading this thread from the top, I realize how lucky I was to have the SuperMegacorp buy the Megacorp. My fulfilling and fun job changed rapidly enough for me to have a good reason to bail. It's like the difference between the lucky SOB who keels-over from a heart attack as opposed to having a degenerative disease that gets a bit worse each day; a long an painful march toward the inevitable.

The frog in the gradually boiling water, yes. In my case, the water has cooled a lot over the past few years. That makes the decision to leave more difficult.

But yeah, in a way, it would be easier if things at work would suddenly just go to hell in a handbasket. Then I wouldn't have to weigh pros and cons and try to figure out the right timing. The decision would be made for me.

[DrRoy]

Eddie, while your post was long, and I have to confess that I do not always get through long ones, I found yours to be different. You articulated the "RE decision issues" very well and I may use the list for myself later. Like others who responded, I have considered many of the same concerns. I have 7 weeks left to RE, and while I have not figured everything out 100%, I am quite comfortable with stopping work soon.

We are similar in that my finances are in great shape, I get my work done in less than 40 hours/week, I am not all bound up in my career, and I have little social life outside of it. We differ though in that I have become less happy with what I am doing. I used to be almost entirely self directed and chose how and where to spend my time very independently. Lately, Megacorp has made a big push to expand the business, and I am now often told where to go and when, largely to new accounts, so I have lost a good bit of that element of control and generally working with customers where I know the people well. There is a lot of travel involved too and I am getting tired of it.

I do have various ideas for how I will spend my time, so I am not too worried about that part of it, although until I stop working I don't have the time to try them all out, as I have seen posted in this thread.

Compared to your situation, I think the biggest difference is my rising dissatisfaction with the job, making RE soon look more attractive now, in spite of the risks that you correctly raise. Good luck to both of us.

[Mdlerth]

Dear Eddie,

I don't know whether this is off-topic or not, but I'll put it out there on the chance it may be comforting.

I once took a business course where they told us that people dislike making decisions. Whether it's what to order from the lunch menu to whether to get married, people recoil from having to decide. For all that we claim to want choices, we hate the process. It's in our nature.

Deciding is scary; it means responsibility and consequences. It means expending effort weeding through confusing data. It means change.

Strange as it sounds, we only undertake a decision when we have no choice. Weird, huh?

As an example, my megacorp has spent the past three decades bouncing from merger to aquisition, with a fresh one coming up. All my colleagues who are retirement-eligible tell me they are waiting on the next fusion to see whether they will be forced/enticed out in the ensuing reorg.

What those nice colleagues' words say is that they are holding out for a sweet severance package. What their actions say is they are procrastinating in hopes that some bigshot executive makes their decision for them.

Applying this reasoning to your situation -- and to mine, for I am just like you and every other human on the globe -- it sounds like you're not ready. So I counsel patience. The time will arrive, circumstances will evolve, people will come and leave, and when the decision is sufficiently non-threatening, you will know.

Pax vobiscum.

[ER Eddie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdlerth I once took a business course where they told us that people dislike making decisions. Whether it's what to order from the lunch menu to whether to get married, people recoil from having to decide. For all that we claim to want choices, we hate the process. It's in our nature. Deciding is scary; it means responsibility and consequences. It means expending effort weeding through confusing data. It means change.

Yes. Reminds me of The Paradox of Choice. The basic idea is that the more choices we have, the more paralyzed and unhappy we become.

https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schw...adox_of_choice

Quote:

Applying this reasoning to your situation -- and to mine, for I am just like you and every other human on the globe -- it sounds like you're not ready. So I counsel patience. The time will arrive, circumstances will evolve, people will come and leave, and when the decision is sufficiently non-threatening, you will know. Pax vobiscum.

Thank you. Well said. I shall wait.

[Teacher Terry]

I retired completely and in 7 months I was offered a p.t. job teaching an online college course. I had never taught before and I love it. I found volunteering to be less rewarding than I thought. Mainly because you have many of the same crap as you did when you were working. I asked a friend of mine that was 10 years older how I would know when I was ready to retire and she said I would just know. She was right and I did.

[LivePassionately]

Mdlerth +1 for this post below. Never realized this distinction but this is pretty damn insightful and awesome !

Eddie - Good luck with your decision. The way you have stated each question with brutal honesty and humor is great. I have no experience with RE and in the planning stage myself as you know from my other thread. However, you seem like a deep thinker and hopefully this thread and suggestions from the good people here have been helpful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdlerth I don't know whether this is off-topic or not, but I'll put it out there on the chance it may be comforting. I once took a business course where they told us that people dislike making decisions. Whether it's what to order from the lunch menu to whether to get married, people recoil from having to decide. For all that we claim to want choices, we hate the process. It's in our nature. Deciding is scary; it means responsibility and consequences. It means expending effort weeding through confusing data. It means change. Strange as it sounds, we only undertake a decision when we have no choice. Weird, huh? Pax vobiscum.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mdlerth Pax vobiscum.

A blast from the past!

Ha