Personal Liability Concerns/Fears Over Everyday Activities

[luckydude]

Personal Liability Concerns/Fears Over "Discretionary" Everyday Activities

We live in a very litigious society, and stories of everyday people getting sued for all sorts of reasons have made me much more concerned and even fearful of personal liability from everyday activities in recent years.

For example, I now refuse to loan any power tools to my neighbor. I stopped letting my riding buddies borrow my mountain bikes. I used to volunteer as instructor at a local martial arts school, but I stopped doing that before Covid. I was asked to lead informal weekend rides on local trails for a local community group, but I declined, citing concerns about liability.

DW laughs at me and thinks that I'm overreacting. We have a large umbrella insurance policy so that's not an issue. None of our neighbors know our financial situation so we definitely don't have a target on our back. But I just don't even want to give anyone any reason to come after me legally.

Do any FI/RE folks share similar concerns/fears?

Edit---just want to clarify that my concerns are around "discretionary activities" where liability risks can be eliminated without impact to quality of life. I understand that everyday activities like driving, having contractors over, etc., carry unavoidable risks and with proper due diligence/insurance, I don't worry about them.

 

[RobbieB]

No, not me. I got the umbrella for that. Not going to worry about it. And certainly not let it run my life.

 

[Freedom56]

We keep surveillance cameras around our property to look for intruders. We do pick up many trespasser's on our property such as cats, racoons, squirrels, crows, owls, people leaving "Watchtower" pamphlets, and kids selling cookies. I don't worry about them suing us.

 

[COcheesehead]

Isn’t that what insurance is for?

 

[luckydude]

Isn’t that what insurance is for?

Sure. But it's the hassle of dealing with even being sued.

Also, what if I lose the suit and judgement is great than my umbrella insurance amount; now my assets are liable. The scenario is improbable but not impossible depending on the nature of liability (e.g. someone borrows my bike, rides it, my front rim breaks and he goes over the bar and breaks his neck---he can come after the wheel manufacturer as well as me).

I know I'm probably being a bit paranoid, but I do think about things like that. So, to mitigate against that scenario, I don't let anyone borrow my bikes anymore.

 

[skyking1]

no. I grew up in a different time and place. I still act like I did back then and don't concern myself with these things.

 

[RobbieB]

Yes, you do. I don't.

 

[COcheesehead]

Sure. But it's the hassle of dealing with even being sued.

Also, what if I lose the suit and judgement is great than my umbrella insurance amount; now my assets are liable. The scenario is improbable but not impossible depending on the nature of liability (e.g. someone borrows my bike, rides it, my front rim breaks and he goes over the bar and breaks his neck---he can come after the wheel manufacturer as well as me).

I know I'm probably being a bit paranoid, but I do think about things like that. So, to mitigate against that scenario, I don't let anyone borrow my bikes anymore.

I think you suffer from some sort of anxiety issue. This type of behavior is just not normal.

 

[luckydude]

I think you suffer from some sort of anxiety issue. This type of behavior is just not normal.

Exactly what DW said

 

[skipro33]

We had our home burn to the ground due to an arson Wildlands fire set by an LEO with lots of personal assets. We never got a dime. Her and DH's funds were in a trust, not in their name, so until funds transfer from the trust IRA to their personal bank, it's all untouchable. Social Security also untouchable. Pensin untouchable. All real estate, and they owned 7 homes, untouchable because it was all handed over to the lawyer as collateral for payment.
OJ Simpson played golf in Florida after millions in civil awards from civil lawsuit. How? Because it was in his trust and the trust paid the bills, not him personally, so technically he didn't own the assets and civil cases are against people's assets, not their trust funds.
I wouldn't worry as long as your estate planner attorney structures your assets in a like manner.

 

[HarveyS]

I think you are over-reacting. Why stop at power tools and mountain bikes? Have you given up driving - that's probably, statistically, your highest risk. Do you have a dog? Maybe second highest risk, statistically. Have you stopped having friends visit your home? What about contractors? Do you call and verify their insurance is up to date before each day they are on your property? Stop worrying.

 

[luckydude]

I think you are over-reacting. Why stop at power tools and mountain bikes? Have you given up driving - that's probably, statistically, your highest risk. Do you have a dog? Maybe second highest risk, statistically. Have you stopped having friends visit your home? What about contractors? Do you call and verify their insurance is up to date before each day they are on your property? Stop worrying.

You're right that there are lots of daily activities where risks are unavoidable, things like driving, contractors, family gatherings, etc. I don't worry about them because they are part of everyday life, and as long as I do my due diligence (e.g. having car insurance, making sure contractors are bonded, etc.), I am fine living with these risks.

My concerns are with "discretionary" things where I have more control over managing/eliminating unnecessary risks. These risks can be easily eliminated without impact to my quality of life. So for example, lending bikes or power tools, refereeing a sparring session, etc, are "things" I can easily do without.

Thankfully I don't sit around worry about these thing too much (although I did a lot of risk management during my corporate career so I have a fairly active imagination) , but I figure if there are specific actions I can take to eliminate these risks without impact to my quality of life, I'll happily do them.

 

[luckydude]

We had our home burn to the ground due to an arson Wildlands fire set by an LEO with lots of personal assets. We never got a dime. Her and DH's funds were in a trust, not in their name, so until funds transfer from the trust IRA to their personal bank, it's all untouchable. Social Security also untouchable. Pensin untouchable. All real estate, and they owned 7 homes, untouchable because it was all handed over to the lawyer as collateral for payment.
OJ Simpson played golf in Florida after millions in civil awards from civil lawsuit. How? Because it was in his trust and the trust paid the bills, not him personally, so technically he didn't own the assets and civil cases are against people's assets, not their trust funds.
I wouldn't worry as long as your estate planner attorney structures your assets in a like manner.

Wow, sorry to hear about the loss of your home. That's awful.

Good thought about asset structuring for the purpose of asset protection. DW and I are still trying to figure out the best way to structure some of our assets as part of estate planning, and obviously asset protection would be a big part of that.

 

[MarieIG]

Wow, sorry to hear about the loss of your home. That's awful.

Good thought about asset structuring for the purpose of asset protection. DW and I are still trying to figure out the best way to structure some of our assets as part of estate planning, and obviously asset protection would be a big part of that.

There are a number of videos re: asset protection on youtube, mostly done by lawyers. I have been watching some videos on estate planning and asset protection myself.

 

[MarieIG]

You're right that there are lots of daily activities where risks are unavoidable, things like driving, contractors, family gatherings, etc. I don't worry about them because they are part of everyday life, and as long as I do my due diligence (e.g. having car insurance, making sure contractors are bonded, etc.), I am fine living with these risks.

My concerns are with "discretionary" things where I have more control over managing/eliminating unnecessary risks. These risks can be easily eliminated without impact to my quality of life. So for example, lending bikes or power tools, refereeing a sparring session, etc, are "things" I can easily do without.

Thankfully I don't sit around worry about these thing too much (although I did a lot of risk management during my corporate career so I have a fairly active imagination) , but I figure if there are specific actions I can take to eliminate these risks without impact to my quality of life, I'll happily do them.

There is no elimination of risk, but certainly it is reasonably to take simple steps to reduce it.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I'm with others. Not too concerned about it but have an umbrella policy just in case. If I get sued, I will let the insurance company deal with the headache.

Should add that I live in Hawaii and the case law is such that judges are much more likely to look for actual negligence and to expect plaintiffs to show that. For example, if I lend my neighbor my chain saw and he cuts off his leg, the judge is more likely to ask the neighbor why he borrowed the chainsaw if he did not know how to use it safely. I know other states are different

I'm comfortable with my liability situation and am helpful to neighbors without losing sleep at night. If you would be worried about getting sued than I would support your decision to sleep well at night. But domestic tranquility is very important as well so if your wife thinks you are being paranoid then the two of you should probably have a conversation so you at least understand each other.

 

[MarieIG]

We live in a very litigious society, and stories of everyday people getting sued for all sorts of reasons have made me much more concerned and even fearful of personal liability from everyday activities in recent years.

For example, I now refuse to loan any power tools to my neighbor. I stopped letting my riding buddies borrow my mountain bikes. I used to volunteer as instructor at a local martial arts school, but I stopped doing that before Covid. I was asked to lead informal weekend rides on local trails for a local community group, but I declined, citing concerns about liability.

DW laughs at me and thinks that I'm overreacting. We have a large umbrella insurance policy so that's not an issue. None of our neighbors know our financial situation so we definitely don't have a target on our back. But I just don't even want to give anyone any reason to come after me legally.

Do any FI/RE folks share similar concerns/fears?

Edit---just want to clarify that my concerns are around "discretionary activities" where liability risks can be eliminated without impact to quality of life. I understand that everyday activities like driving, having contractors over, etc., carry unavoidable risks and with proper due diligence/insurance, I don't worry about them.

I don't own power tools, but back in the day, yes I did see litigation involving power tools and martial arts.

As to driving well, I aim to reduce the risk by never drinking and driving; driving within the speed limit; keeping space between my vehicle and the vehicle in front of mine, and now that I'm retired, avoiding driving in bad weather.

Dogs - use your common sense. I am currently the, ahem, caretaker of a grand-doggie, and if someone comes to the door, I don't open the door, I speak to the person out of the window, to avoid potential issues.

Contractors, of course I want to verify their insurance, and that I'm an additional insured on the policy; and that there is a defense and indemnification provision, to the fullest extent allowed by law . . .

Any although I have said I was not volunteering, I did do some initial research into a potential field (involving helping seniors) but could not find a local agency which provided malpractice insurance so that was a pass.

BTW, unless you're living in a box on the sidewalk you're a potential target; and any snarky or condescending posters will be nowhere to be seen if you are sued.

 

[Jerry1]

I know I'm probably being a bit paranoid,

A friend of mine used to say, “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.”

But seriously, find a way to get comfortable with knowing your insurance is there to handle these things. It also makes sense to do some structuring of your assets to make sure you won’t be homeless and broke if the worst happens. After that, live your life consistent with your heart. i.g. If it makes you feel good to loan out a bike to a friend, then do so.

 

[Amethyst]

Unlike some others, I don't think OP's fears are unreasonable. While I might lend my electric yard tools, I never let another person (one who isn't on my insurance) drive my car. Too many things can happen, no matter how much we all want to believe our driving skills are of the best.

As a landlord, I had to deal with a nuisance suit by a tenant who evidently had some deal with a shyster, so the shyster did the work for nothing. It was a pack of completely trumped-up nonsense, aimed at getting money and "face" from us (tenant felt my husband had somehow insulted him). We won, but it was truly a waste of time, some money, and anxiety - drove us out of landlording for good.

 

[razztazz]

I' pretty much the same way. It doesn't have the same impact on my life because I'm just not "in" to many things. No motorcycles, no martial arts etc. But I see this kind of stuff the same way you do.

 

[gauss]

Exactly what DW said

I use to worry a lot about various things. Never medically diagnosed with anxiety, but may have qualified if I sought it (it did run in the family).

Anyway, a couple of simple strategies have helped me significantly.

1) Figure out what the worst possible outcome is and how statistically likely this is to happen. In your case, you need to know how much of your assets are exempt from lawsuits. (Hint, all of your retirement accounts probably). It is through education like this that the fear may dissapate.

2) Keep the old quote attributed to Mark Twain around -- "I've lived through some terrible things in my life -- some of them actually even happened!" think about it.

-gauss

 

[athena53]

My career was in property-casualty insurance so I'm trained to think "What could go wrong here?". I have a $3 million umbrella policy and most of my assets are in a trust or IRAs.

I practice "normal" risk mitigation- have never loaned my car to anyone but DS, DDIL and the guy I'm dating (he drives on our road trips), all of whom are careful drivers. I don't own any power tools. I'm on the HOA and the church vestry but both have insurance that covers my activities. I did freak out when the HOA Treasurer let the insurance lapse for 3 months in 2021. This year I was all over him to make sure it was renewed. The coverage was claims-made and fortunately no one made any noises about a lawsuit during those 3 months.

So, no, I don't lose a lot of sleep over liability.

 

[Midpack]

I don’t worry about it and we have umbrella insurance for that reason, but I can see both sides. I’m sure we hear about nuisance suits WAY disproportionately, because readers like to talk about it…

 

[euro]

We live in a very litigious society, and stories of everyday people getting sued for all sorts of reasons have made me much more concerned and even fearful of personal liability from everyday activities in recent years.

For example, I now refuse to loan any power tools to my neighbor. I stopped letting my riding buddies borrow my mountain bikes. I used to volunteer as instructor at a local martial arts school, but I stopped doing that before Covid. I was asked to lead informal weekend rides on local trails for a local community group, but I declined, citing concerns about liability.

DW laughs at me and thinks that I'm overreacting. We have a large umbrella insurance policy so that's not an issue. None of our neighbors know our financial situation so we definitely don't have a target on our back. But I just don't even want to give anyone any reason to come after me legally.

Do any FI/RE folks share similar concerns/fears?

Edit---just want to clarify that my concerns are around "discretionary activities" where liability risks can be eliminated without impact to quality of life. I understand that everyday activities like driving, having contractors over, etc., carry unavoidable risks and with proper due diligence/insurance, I don't worry about them.

Yes, you are overreacting. The activities that you list provide extremely low liability risk, especially if you carry an umbrella policy. Plus, I would argue that you probably would not have done those activities if they didn’t provide you with some measure of enjoyment, so dropping them DOES affect your quality of life. Relax!!!

 

[pacergal]

OP--
I am with you on some things--loaning out power tools, equipment or bikes.
I don't loan our cars out.
As for teaching martial arts, thats what you are there for--to make sure they do things correctly to avoid injury. I would think the school would have insurance to cover instructors. I wouldn't teach if they did not. Same with the bike tours, does the company have group insurance to cover injuries?
We do have umbrella insurance, to help if a lawsuit would happen for some reason.
Do whatever makes you feel comfortable.