Pocket Neighborhoods

[Geoffrey]

Does anyone have any experience with "pocket neighborhoods?"

Cozy pocket neighborhoods have sprawl on the move - USATODAY.com

The idea, pioneered by a Washingtion State architect (Ross Chapin Architects), is to create a grouping of smaller residences, often around a shared open space (e.g., a courtyard or common garden), and is designed to promote a close knit sense of community and neighborliness.

Now this appeals to me! I want to simplify my life. I don't need a McMansion and I want to feel a sense of community, but don't want to share walls with my neighbors (condo-style). I also like the idea of having neighbors whom I can count on to watch my property when I'm away for extended periods. Has anyone lived in one of these, or know someone who has? Whadda think of this?

I'd like to see variations on this concept, i.e., pocket communities designed for people share a common interest (e.g., an interest in gardening, a pocket community designed for RV enthusiasts, etc.).

 

[RetiredGypsy]

I'd like to see variations on this concept, i.e., pocket communities designed for people share a common interest (e.g., an interest in gardening, a pocket community designed for RV enthusiasts, etc.).

A real life forum.

 

[W2R]

Sounds like 8 patio homes, each 1000 square feet, jammed up almost next to each other.

That article used so many loaded words and images, like "charming", "cozy", "cottages", that it really set off my red flags. I wonder if they are taking advantage of some seniors' desire to return to yesterday, when everyone knew the neighbors and nobody played a boom box loudly. Times have changed, unfortunately.

Although I would consider buying a patio home, I don't think I would buy one in that sort of development.

Now this appeals to me! I want to simplify my life. I don't need a McMansion and I want to feel a sense of community, but don't want to share walls with my neighbors (condo-style). I also like the idea of having neighbors whom I can count on to watch my property when I'm away for extended periods.

Who is to say that you can count on these neighbors any more than you can count on your present neighbors? I think it's a scam.

 

[haha]

Does anyone have any experience with "pocket neighborhoods?"

Cozy pocket neighborhoods have sprawl on the move - USATODAY.com

The idea, pioneered by a Washingtion State architect (Ross Chapin Architects), is to create a grouping of smaller residences, often around a shared open space (e.g., a courtyard or common garden), and is designed to promote a close knit sense of community and neighborliness.

Now this appeals to me! I want to simplify my life. I don't need a McMansion and I want to feel a sense of community, but don't want to share walls with my neighbors (condo-style). I also like the idea of having neighbors whom I can count on to watch my property when I'm away for extended periods. Has anyone lived in one of these, or know someone who has? Whadda think of this?

I'd like to see variations on this concept, i.e., pocket communities designed for people share a common interest (e.g., an interest in gardening, a pocket community designed for RV enthusiasts, etc.).

These are common in my in-city neighborhood- not new ones, but mostly dating from 50s -60s. There is one backing up onto my bedroom window. Let me tell you one downside- those places are noisey! Last weekend one of the 6 units was having a party, at 4am people were still shrieking and laughing. It's even more pronounced on the courtyard, as they are often brick with maybe a central fountain or garden, and this reflects voices, music, etc- and here there is not much air conditioning, so all summer windows are open.

I have an idea- a pocket community for people who hate other people!

But as far as a pocket community for RVs, isn't that what a trailer park is?

Ha

 

[hakuna matata]

The basic concept has been around for awhile in various forms. One is an idea called co-housing. That concept is enjoyed by a small community on Vashon Island here in Washington. I initially looked into buying/building there some 20 years ago but opted to not do it.

On the surface I do think it has lots of potential but there is also some downside. It really depends upon what you want out of life and out of a community. The co-housing idea works I think because it tends to draw like minded individuals who wish to share that lifestyle of community. So many of the conflicts that might occur in a for sale neighborhood don't occur.

The reality of the situation though is that we likely will see more and more of these types of endeavors as land prices clash with affordability of home ownership. On one hand I think that is a good thing as it will create more vibrant neighborhoods rather then the souless suburbs, but I do think it will take a mental adjustment by the consumer in order to achieve it. Time will tell but I do think it is the wave of the future in more urban cities.

 

[Andre1969]

sounds like a nice idea in concept, as long as you're a sociable person and get along with your neighbors. Me, I like looking out the back window and seeing nothing but the woods that border my lawn and stretch back as far as the eye can see...and knowing that, from the back window, I can't even see to the end of the property!

If people want smaller homes, it might not be a bad idea to dust off some of those old Sears and Roebuck floorplans. I know of about 6 or 7 of them that are scattered throughout my neighborhood, a narrow-lot bungalow style that's something like 24x36 feet. They're actually not a bad little setup, if you don't need a lot of space. Livingroom/dining combination that's about 11x23 feet, with a kitchen in back that's 11x11 and has a pantry off of it. Two bedrooms, with some variation, but usually one is around 11x10 and the other's around 11x13. And only one bathroom, which might be a turnoff to a lot of people.

 

[Andre1969]

Something else I just noticed...it is just me, or does that neighborhood look kinda like the village from "The Prisoner"?

 

[samclem]

I don't know if this architectural feature would be sufficient, in itself, to foster a sense of community. But, it would likely select for people who want to get to know their neighbors (otherwise known as needy, klingy, nosy-neighbor types), so that would work.

It seems a little artificial. The closest neighborhood I lived in was when I lived on a USAF base. It was arranged just like any other housing tract. But everyone had a lot in common, and that was a lot more important in forming a true community than any lot lines or shared common areas.

The most important thing we could do to build communities is to physically get people out of their homes and cars--walking or biking to the store, etc. That's how people meet each other naturally.

 

[Geoffrey]

I like the concept because the homes are not built around cars and streets. The scale is more amenable to people. This is something I appreciated about many of the neighborhoods in Japan . . . they were built on a human scale, encouraging people to mingle, to use their bicycles, to become a community. I like the idea of shifting the focus from boundry lines (fences) to communal space. When people live in little castles with moats around them they become disconnected and isolated. This may work for some, but I don't think it's really healthy. I also like the idea of smaller, but upscale, cottage-size homes rather than McMansions. These also tend to be "green" developments . . . another plus.

 

[Andre1969]

Unfortunately with some of these neighborhoods, when it comes to cars, some units get the short end of the stick. Here's an overhead shot of one of these pocket neighborhoods:
http://www.rosschapin.com/Home/images/TSCAerial2.jpg
I don't think I'd want to live in those units that back to the parking lot. Unless they're VERY well insulated! My old condo used to overlook the parking lot, and you could always hear people carrying on conversations down there, staring their cars, letting them idle, slamming doors, etc.

On the plus side though, it looks like for even the most isolated units aren't TOO far of a walk from the parking lot. I guess, like any community, it's not perfect. It has its pluses and minuses.

 

[Texas Proud]

Unfortunately with some of these neighborhoods, when it comes to cars, some units get the short end of the stick. Here's an overhead shot of one of these pocket neighborhoods:
http://www.rosschapin.com/Home/images/TSCAerial2.jpg
I don't think I'd want to live in those units that back to the parking lot. Unless they're VERY well insulated! My old condo used to overlook the parking lot, and you could always hear people carrying on conversations down there, staring their cars, letting them idle, slamming doors, etc.

On the plus side though, it looks like for even the most isolated units aren't TOO far of a walk from the parking lot. I guess, like any community, it's not perfect. It has its pluses and minuses.

Looks to me like they are trying to save on land costs... not make it 'cozy'... I, for one, would not want to live there...

 

[Geoffrey]

On one level, I'm a little surprised at the generally negative responses to the "pocket neighborhood" concept. However, given the results of the recent net worth survey, perhaps I should not be too surprised that many here prefer a little more room. Although I could afford more traditional housing myself, I am attracted to the concept of breaking down the barriers that we tend to create with our housing developments (especially fencing) and the focus on cars rather than people. I've experienced the honeycombed, narrow streets common in Japan and the smaller scale that the Japanese embrace. In my view, this breathes life back into the community -- life that seems to have been sucked out of many housing developments in the U.S. I would not want to live in a "pocket community" if the focus was simply on saving money . . . but, I am attracted where the focus is on high-end, human oriented design, rather than "bigger is better." Of course, if you simply don't like/want neighbors, pocket neighborhoods wouldn't be for you.

 

[Midpack]

You're not alone. I have been a big fan of Ross Chapin's pocket neighborhoods (coincidentally received his new book in the mail today) and Susan Susanka's Not So Big House concepts for many years. I would much rather have a nicely appointed, well thought out small home than the maximum sqft per dollar box with builders grade materials McMansions any day. I would also prefer a smaller yard just easier to take care of, my days accepting acres of mowing and maintaining elaborate landscape have passed.

Pocket neighborhoods have had a lot of success in the NW. I have looked at Ross Chapin homes in person. They are not patio homes, nor are they specifically geared for seniors. They are gorgeous, but they are incredibly expensive per sqft. I have to agree you take your chances in a community with a high density of houses, in terms of noisy neighbors or folks who don't take pride in maintaining their home/property. However, I suspect the very high prices are less likely to result in problem neighbors.

So I'd live in a Ross Chapin neighborhood, but I would never afford it, so I'll be looking for a less expensive version of the concept.

 

[RunningBum]

I'm a bit surprised too, since I read about people downsizing to condos, apartments, and townhomes. I don't see how the downsides would be any worse than those places, and with no shared walls, it should be a bit better. If the cost is quite a bit higher, that would be another downside, and reading Midpack's post, that appears to be the case. I wouldn't pay a big premium to live in such a place.

It's not for me, because I like my privacy, and I don't like the noise from close neighbors. Like apartments, one bad apple can ruin it for you, whether they are loud or nosy or perhaps even dangerous. Also, that stroll from your car through the grounds to your house might be pleasant on a nice day, but not in a cold rain when you have a week of groceries to haul in.

 

[M Paquette]

The pocket neighborhood is a good idea as far as it goes. What I'd really be looking for would be close by services. A neighborhood grocery, for example, and maybe a nice coffee shop or bookstore. I'd like to see the neighborhood integrated with the neighborhood-at-large. If one of these neighborhoods was within ten blocks of Powell's Books, I'd be there, cash in hand.

One of the problems these pocket neighborhoods have is that cities treat them as condo/townhome developments, and zone them out of areas with single family homes. Dodging that often requires building out in the suburban wilderness. (See Danielson Grove and Conover Commons)

 

[hakuna matata]

Geoffrey you live here in Washington right? If you are interested in a community like this, you might want to travel to Poulsbo on the Kitsap side. They have a neighborhood there that is similar I think to what you are seeking called Poulsbo Place. I believe there is a second phase being built now.

Here is a paper I found on it (pdf). Go to pages 10-12 which has some images of the original Poulsbo Place. Actually overall it is a good paper and you might enjoy it. Good luck!

http://www.mrsc.org/artdocmisc/M58RightSize.pdf

 

[Geoffrey]

Hakuna Matata, you are partially correct . . . I am a Washington state resident, but I am presently working on temporary assignment in New Orleans (after returning to the U.S. from Japan). I will definitely check these communities out when I return to Washington state later this year. There are tradeoffs with any lifestyle and "pocket neighborhoods" appear to be no exception However, they appeal to me much more than typical condo arrangements. To me, these new developments respond to the same dilemma faced by small car buyers for many years -- small equals "low quality." These small houses appear to offer high quality and, equally important, the developers appear to have focused their attention on what makes a neighborhood really tick.

 

[obgyn65]

My thoughts exactly !

Something else I just noticed...it is just me, or does that neighborhood look kinda like the village from "The Prisoner"?

 

[Andre1969]

On one level, I'm a little surprised at the generally negative responses to the "pocket neighborhood" concept.

I think I'd definitely prefer one of these "pocket" houses to your typical condo, apartment, or townhouse. And my old condo was 1254 square feet, so it was comparable, more or less, to these things.

But, I guess I just prefer to have a little more distance from my neighbors. Well, okay, a LOT more distance! I gotta admit, I've gotten spoiled by living on 4 1/4 acres. The house really isn't much, a 95 year old former dry-goods store that's been added onto haphazardly, and maybe 1500 square feet at best. Now, as I get older, my tastes may change. But at this point in life, if I do ever move, I figure I need at LEAST an acre. Preferably two. I'm actually not THAT pressed about the house, as long as it's liveable, and not ready to fall down!

But, I can see the appeal of these pocket neighborhoods, for some people.

Something else I just thought of, though...while these "pocket" neighborhoods might help ease the urban sprawl a bit, aren't they actually making congestion worse, by squeezing 8 or 9 homes into the same amount of space that otherwise might only have only 2 or 3?

 

[Ronstar]

I work for a civil engineering, land surveying, and urban planning firm. We have been involved in several "pocket neighborhood" developments in the Chicago suburbs. Almost all have been geared for the 55+ crowd, without incorporating any commercial uses in the "pockets". It seems like the conventional younger buyers around here have not yet embraced the idea - they still want their big house with their own yards to play in. Judging from what I hear from younger parents, child safety is a major concern. Child safety seems best provided by the standard residential subdivisions with individually owned lots.

The "pocket" concept rarely fits in a standard category in a zoning ordinance, so they are generally planned as "planned unit developments", where the final planning and design parameters need to be established early in the approval process. Dwelling density, street access, and open space issues are generally the stumbling blocks in gaining approvals. Once planned, designed, approved, and built properly, they can be a great place to live. I would like to see more of these developments around here, incorporating more small commercial uses in with the residential.

Here's an aerial view of one of the "pocket" developments we worked on. The residents love the no maintenance aspect of the development - everything outside of the house walls is maintained by the HOA.

 

[rescueme]

But, I guess I just prefer to have a little more distance from my neighbors. Well, okay, a LOT more distance!

Amen; DW/me feel the same.

Even though we only have a bit over an acre, I could never return to those days of in-town living, along with hearing the neighbor's through the wall.

And if it get's too much to handle? That's why they have lawn/snow service folks. As for now, I enjoy the outside "w*rk"; nothing like getting on the lawn tractor and mowing the "back 40"...

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

Pocket Neighborhoods are the same as pattern #37 - House Cluster in A Pattern Language, published in 1977

The linked photos in previous posts make it look like the designers did little more than implement this pattern. There are practioners who clearly see how other patterns from the book will help turn a common space into a community space, for example: Pocket Neighborhoods ? Creating Small Scale Community in a Large Scale World

Other patterns that would help turn the common grass into a community place are #121 - Path Shape, #124 - Activity Pockets, #241 - Seat Spots and #105 South Facing Outdoors.

The book is amazing. Long before I finished the book I'd concluded that most of conventional design for towns, neighborhoods, streets, parks, homes, rooms and parts of rooms is by people who are ignorant of what features can encourage community or friendly interaction. Either that or they're intentionally designing to encourage isolation.

My favorite pattern is the only one I recognized before ever hearing of the book. If public outdoor stairs have both room to sit and places to sit along the edges such that they don't interfere with foot traffic, people will congregate. It's pattern #125 - Stair Seats.

 

[Andre1969]

Amen; DW/me feel the same.

Even though we only have a bit over an acre, I could never return to those days of in-town living, along with hearing the neighbor's through the wall.

And if it get's too much to handle? That's why they have lawn/snow service folks. As for now, I enjoy the outside "w*rk"; nothing like getting on the lawn tractor and mowing the "back 40"...

Most of my land is woods and wetlands, so out of that 4 1/4 acres, I'd guess the part I actually have to mow is about an acre. So, it's really not TOO much work. And, as I get older, I can always let parts of it revert to nature, so I have less to mow!

And the funny thing is, even with 4 1/4 acres, sometimes the neighbors feel like they're too close. The house to the left of me is probably about 300 feet from my house. Yet, when the occupants sit out on their back deck and start getting loud (not fighting, just partying and having a good time, I swear it sounds like that 300 feet isn't enough! And, when they first moved in, one of them let me know, nicely, that I might want to watch what I do in front of my bedroom window. Somehow, from her driveway, 300 feet away, she said she could see me changing! And I'm thinking seeing with what? Binoculars?! But, at least she let me know. I had gotten lazy about it I guess, because that house seems so far away, and there used to just be a single older guy who was hardly ever home...geeze, I hope I wasn't giving HIM a cheap thrill all these years!

 

[Geoffrey]

From the responses, I gather that some people prefer a large buffer between themselves and their neighbors while some prefer closer contact . Obviously, pocket neighborhoods are not the answer for those that prefer isolation. However, for those who crave a stronger sense of community and neighborliness, but still want to enjoy the benefits of a single family home, a pocket neighborhood may be the solution. When I was younger I dreamed of living on a 5 or 10 acre parcel and gave little thought to the benefits of having neighbors. Now that I am older, I have begun to think more about the social advantages of having neighobrs nearby and the security benefits of having someone close by to watch my house when I am away. Also, I also don't want to bite off more than I can chew with respect to the maintenance that comes with a larger home. Finally, I am interested in simplifying my life so that I can better focus on what is really important without the distraction of the inevitable clutter that comes with "living large." The "pocket neighborhood" concept seems to address these priorities better than any other available lifestyle I have considered. I've looked at condos, mobile homes, traditional single family housing, and mini-farms in the country. None of them seem to achieve the right balance between privacy and neighborliness that I feel is ideal. Personnally, I'd like to see the pocket neighborhood concept catch on in the U.S. I realize it's not for everyone, but I suspect pocket neighborhoods would work better for most than the typical condo complex, or the typical housing development where their garage door is their "face to the world" and where neighbors quickly surround their property with a 6 foot fence, effectively isolating themselves from others. I think this emerging concept will work well for many retirees.

 

[Texas Proud]

I work for a civil engineering, land surveying, and urban planning firm. We have been involved in several "pocket neighborhood" developments in the Chicago suburbs. Almost all have been geared for the 55+ crowd, without incorporating any commercial uses in the "pockets". It seems like the conventional younger buyers around here have not yet embraced the idea - they still want their big house with their own yards to play in. Judging from what I hear from younger parents, child safety is a major concern. Child safety seems best provided by the standard residential subdivisions with individually owned lots.

The "pocket" concept rarely fits in a standard category in a zoning ordinance, so they are generally planned as "planned unit developments", where the final planning and design parameters need to be established early in the approval process. Dwelling density, street access, and open space issues are generally the stumbling blocks in gaining approvals. Once planned, designed, approved, and built properly, they can be a great place to live. I would like to see more of these developments around here, incorporating more small commercial uses in with the residential.

Here's an aerial view of one of the "pocket" developments we worked on. The residents love the no maintenance aspect of the development - everything outside of the house walls is maintained by the HOA.

To me, this looks more like a normal neighborhood with patio homes... the only common area looks like it is in the middle of the cul-de-sac....


Me, I like my back yard... we have a hot tub... my wife plants LOTS of flowers... there is a bit of room for the kids... we grill on the back and have tables and chairs outside... the original picture did not have any private area that I saw... this picture has very little area at all...


As for living in a condo etc.... I lived in NY for a bit and did not hear the neighbors unless I really tried... a good built building can get rid of a lot of this problem... not a quick thrown up apartment...



Also, I do not have any problem with this design as long as it is an option... if you like it, great... if not, buy something else...