Questions on relocating to SE Asia

[Ozziedreamer]

I know that some of you on this forum have, or are considering relocating to SE Asia (Thailand, Phillipines, etc) upon retirement.

I have a couple of questions, as I am also considering relocation to a cheaper country in retirement, and SE Asia is relatively close to my home country.

1. Did you sell your house before moving, or have you kept your house and rented it out? Selling one's house seems very final, on the other hand selling means you dont need to maintain it, so I can see pros/cons to both. I imagine selling also means one can retire earlier?

2. How long did it take to plan and make the move, from the initial thought seeded that this is what you want to do, to actually achieving it.

3. Is anyone doing the 6 months living in SE Asia and 6 months living in their home country (or similar ratio of time)? I assume this means keeping a home in your home country. How long did this delay retirement, by doing it this way? Is this better than just living full time in SE Asia, to maintain contact with family/friends?

4. For those that sold up and relocated permanently to SE Asia, how many working years do you estimate you cut from your working life by doing this, ie by how many years did you bring forward retirement.

5. Lastly, for those that have made the move, do you have any regrets or would you have done anything differently if you could have your time again prior to the move? Also, which country did you find to be the best for you in SE Asia?

Thanking you in advance

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

1. Did you sell your house before moving, or have you kept your house and rented it out?

2. How long did it take to plan and make the move, from the initial thought seeded that this is what you want to do, to actually achieving it.

1. Wasn't a home owner.

2. Hard to say. Researched on and off for about 3 years between thinking it was something I could do and deciding I wanted to do it. Then it was 4 1/2 years before pulling the plug because I got involved in something that made delaying ER appealing. Once I knew where I was going and why, it took a year to leave the country. That was a busy year because I was w*rking full time.

3. Is anyone doing the 6 months living in SE Asia and 6 months living in their home country (or similar ratio of time)? ... Is this better than just living full time in SE Asia, to maintain contact with family/friends?

4. For those that sold up and relocated permanently to SE Asia, how many working years do you estimate you cut from your working life by doing this, ie by how many years did you bring forward retirement.

3. Never met anyone in the Philippines who did this, but it's common among Europeans in Thailand. They come here to get away from the winter.

4. No idea how many years earlier I retired because although I'd planned for decades to be financially able to retire in the US I never really thought about what that would mean. I was a computer programmer which meant I got paid well for something I'd do as a hobby. I figured I'd retire when I needed the time more than I needed the money and the intellectual stimulation. But never thought about when that would be.

5. Lastly, for those that have made the move, do you have any regrets or would you have done anything differently if you could have your time again prior to the move? Also, which country did you find to be the best for you in SE Asia?

No regrets.

Things I would have done differently. 1) Open a brokerage account. I haven't purchased individual stocks in over 20 years but now that I don't have a physical US address I can't open an account if I wanted to. 2) Newer shoes. Left the US with two pairs of broken in shoes and one pair of Teva sandals. The shoes and sandals in both the Philippines and Thailand are either fakes, poorly made, poorly designed or all three. I have B width feet so nothing fits.

>which country did you find to be the best for you in SE Asia?

That's a big can of worms. I know it's not the Philippines and it might be Thailand. Very briefly considered Malaysia but their retirement visa requirements are unacceptable. Their racial preference laws are driving out the ethnic Chinese and Indian businessmen. Government positions, licenses, contracts and university admissions are filled first by ethnic Malays, regardless of the availability of more qualified people. Both are harming the economy.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

I spent most of yesterday reading Best Places to Live in Southeast Asia on Social Security or pension. Living in Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam. Best places to retire. and watch retirecheapjc's YouTube channel. He seems to me a fairly well adjusted expat. I was very happy especially after seeing his video of a $275/month condo that looks very decent.

‪Chiang Mai -635 Sq. Ft Cheap Affordable Apt. Overlooking Mountains $275‬‏ - YouTube

However, then I spent most of this afternoon reading Private Dancer, and I'm not as enthusiastic about being an expat because the characters all seem to be living lives of self destruction. I guess it really comes down to the choices the expat makes. In the West, the temptations aren't as readily available, so a lot of weakness of will is covered by the lack of temptations.

 

[haha]

I spent most of yesterday reading Best Places to Live in Southeast Asia on Social Security or pension. Living in Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam. Best places to retire. and watch retirecheapjc's YouTube channel. He seems to me a fairly well adjusted expat. I was very happy especially after seeing his video of a $275/month condo that looks very decent.

‪Chiang Mai -635 Sq. Ft Cheap Affordable Apt. Overlooking Mountains $275‬‏ - YouTube

However, then I spent most of this afternoon reading Private Dancer, and I'm not as enthusiastic about being an expat because the characters all seem to be living lives of self destruction. I guess it really comes down to the choices the expat makes. In the West, the temptations aren't as readily available, so a lot of weakness of will is covered by the lack of temptations.

There are some very successful expats who post here. When I was younger and working in Latin America, or later traveling there long enough to get to know people I saw some of what I considered to be train wrecks. The most successful expats I saw were Mennonites, who could just as easily have been farming on Mars. They were looking for a farming and economic opportunity, not a lifestyle experience.

Ha

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

There are some very successful expats who post here. When I was younger and working in Latin America, or later traveling there long enough to get to know people I saw some of what I considered to be train wrecks. The most successful expats I saw were Mennonites, who could just as easily have been farming on Mars. They were looking for a farming and economic opportunity, not a lifestyle experience.

Ha

Well, how about in order of importance 1) the economic opportunity of being able to fully retire in one's 40s instead of in one's 50s, 2) more social opportunity with friends, 3) more social opportunities, wink, wink.

I find my current semi ER/business building experience to be one of extreme isolation. New city, new work, some headaches, and few new friends with whom to socialize until the weekend because everyone else is busy working 9 to 5 doesn't exactly make for an exciting life. I also can't afford to be eating out all that often until the business is up to a certain point in the next 2 months. This is what I find the most boring part of being a semi ER in the US.

As for 3), taking a page from Patrice O'neal, I'm of the school that believes one must always retain the ability or at least the illusion of the ability to fish even if one has no intention of taking anything out of the tackle box and putting any bait on the hook. It's just part of the male-female dynamic. If your woman knows you have lost the ability and the opportunity to fish, then she's going to treat you with the same amount of respect as she accords an out-of-work fisherman with a broken down boat.

 

[haha]

As for 3), taking a page from Patrice O'neal, I'm of the school that believes one must always retain the ability or at least the illusion of the ability to fish even if one has no intention of taking anything out of the tackle box and putting any bait on the hook. It's just part of the male-female dynamic. If your woman knows you have lost the ability and the opportunity to fish, then she's going to treat you with the same amount of respect as she accords an out-of-work fisherman with a broken down boat.

I believe this is correct, though you would get a lot of disagreement from men and women on this board.

A friend of mine was doing anthropological field work on some South Pacific Island, can't rememnber which. She worked with an agency who employed a good looking young local man. She was surprised that he got no play from the local girls, though she thought he was the thing. In talking to local women, they all said, he has no boat. When you people pick up and leave, what can he do for me?

Ha

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

I see and I agree with your point, but I think I may have been a bit vague with my references. The ability to fish refers to the ability to attract other women.

By moving to a lower-cost area, one automatically moves up the economic ladder to the equivalent of a successful boat captain with half a dozen working boats, so the economic fishing part is done. The biggest challenge I think will be to not let that get to one's head. As I read on Hua Hin expat forum linked to by ItDontMeanAThing, I am under the impression that a few characters seem to be suffering from extreme megalomania brought about by the sudden and rapid movement up the economic ladder.

 

[haha]

I see and I agree with your point, but I think I may have been a bit vague with my references. The ability to fish refers to the ability to attract other women.

I guess I don't understand. If you are seeking women who are attracted to USD, all you need is three things, 1)USD 2)Continued good exchange rates between the USD and wherever you are spending them and 3) Continued relative low cost of living where you are spending your money.

But overall, I can think of more sustaining things than access to inexpensive dates.

Ha

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

I guess I don't understand. If you are seeking women who are attracted to USD, all you need is three things, 1)USD 2)Continued good exchange rates between the USD and wherever you are spending them and 3) Continued relative low cost of living where you are spending your money.

But overall, I can think of more sustaining things than access to inexpensive dates.

Ha

I can see that this thread is going to degenerate into another soon-to-be-closed thread if we continue down this path of discussion. Let's just put it this way, when the other side has most of the power, engaging in battle is not fun, and that is how I see the dating and gender situation in the States.

Now, by seeking a better situation for yourself doesn't mean going crazy on buying a ton of "inexpensive dates" as you put it. Hence, I reference the megalomania part in my post. You just need the cheap dates to be present to equal the play field a bit. It does not mean you need to partake in any of it.

 

[haha]

I can see that this thread is going to degenerate into another soon-to-be-closed thread if we continue down this path of discussion. Let's just put it this way, when the other side has most of the power, engaging in battle is not fun, and that is how I see the dating and gender situation in the States.

Now, by seeking a better situation for yourself doesn't mean going crazy on buying a ton of "inexpensive dates" as you put it. Hence, I reference the megalomania part in my post. You just need the cheap dates to be present to equal the play field a bit. It does not mean you need to partake in any of it.

I am not putting you down, at all. I just don't understand what your issue is. I thought I did, but I didn't I guess.

I don't understand the problem with what you describe as megalomania. Deal with that when and if it visits you. I think you will find that will not be a problem.

Ha

 

[Onward]

In talking to local women, they all said, he has no boat.

Is this some kind of comment on his dinghy?

If you are seeking women who are attracted to USD

Heck, you don't have to go overseas for that!

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

Congratulations for chasing the OP away with the thread hijack.

 

[kramer]

My advice is don't move for just one main reason (saving money). You won't be happy in the long run.

You don't say how many times you have visited and to which countries? It is impossible to tell whether you will like it in a particular place until you have spent a fair amount of time there. The same is true for being an expat in a developing country, in general.

It has taken me several years living abroad to figure out what I really like. I really had no clue whether I would like it (in the long run) when I ERed and planned for the very real possibility that I would not like it.

Also, if in the long run you end up maintaining a year-around home in your home country, you will not be saving money by living in SE Asia. Living half time in two places raises costs in both places.

Another piece of advice is to take the long term visa situation seriously before you commit too much to a country. Make sure you can actually live there if you really ending up liking it. Also, owning property seems to be important to many people, so if that is an issue for you, make sure that you can own property in your target country.

Kramer

 

[Ozziedreamer]

Hi All

Thanks for the time taken in replying, in particular to ItDontMeanAThing and Kramer for your detailed responses.

The thread did get a little sidetracked, but I am afraid that this perception is well and truly alive - if I tell people I am thinking of retiring to SE Asia, immediately people think as a single guy that all I am interested in is the availability of women, when in fact for me the real motivators are low cost of living, slow relaxed pace, ability to just wear shorts and T shirt every day, hot weather (hate the cold stuff), scenery (temples, ancient ruins, greenery in places), etc. But yes, the immediate perception of availability of young Asian women is still there, and one that I think those that have gone before me have just had to deal with - not saying that one cant have a girlfriend, but it shouldnt be the primary driver.

So on this note, agree with Kramer that one should not move for just one main reason (saving money) - I have listed some of my reasons above - it is also only a relatively short trip back home, compared to say flying to Europe or US from Oz - to visit family/friends.

For Kramer, I have been to both Indonesia and Thailand, and intend to visit Vietnam as well. I have heard from numerous sources that for the Phillipines, the security (or lack thereof) and poverty can be a bit overwhelming - but may still visit to take a look.

I certainly wont be making any rash decisions - still am a few years from being able to "up sticks" if you like.

Regarding Kramer's point about maintaining a year-around home in your home country, I think this may be prohibitive for US persons, as I understand annual property taxes are quite high in the US. For me, a paid off house will only cost me about $1000 in council rates and about $500 in water per year. Insurance on the home would be another $500 per year. Obviously with no one in it during the time I am overseas, electricity is minimal. I would rent overseas. There is the extra cost in travel to and from every year, as well as potentially registration in keeping one's car back home (again would not buy a car overseas, just use local transport such as taxis, motorbikes). There is also the concern re security of ones vacant home whilst overseas for six months. But certainly would all need to be evaluated carefully closer to the time.

Thanks everyone for the good advice. And BTW, am also enjoying reading the Hua Hin blog from time to time - I think this blog is by ItDontMeanAThing.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Ozzie, sorry for sidetracking your discussion, but every one of these overseas thread seems to get side tracked this way. It's not surprising considering most of the people who can ditch everything and relocate are probably middle aged+ single men, so topic of the Asian women invariably gets brought up even if we try mightily to avoid it.

OK, in all seriousness, I did want to ask you when you bought your house as a primary residence, did you consider what kind of cap rate you could get if you rented it out? Most folks when buying their primary residence look at the house, the location, the amenities, the distance to work, and the school district, but they rarely consider if it would make sense as a rental. If this is the case for you, then I'd seriously consider selling the property. If you still foresee coming back to visit, as a single person, you can crash at your friends' and relatives' houses if you are a reasonable house guest.

I have a bunch of rental properties, and I'm using one of the cheapest condos as my residence now, but if I intend to travel for 6 months or more, I'll rent out the condo. If I need to come back to manage the properties, I'll just live at my sister's place 70 miles away. Keeping the place empty will eat up far too much money.

 

[sailor]

Ozzie,
not exactly answering your questions, but just scratching my head about "grass is greener"
I thought that except for the temples and green stuff there are places in OZ which would fit at least some of your requirements?
My casual observation was that "warmer" places in Australia seemed to have more relaxed lifestyles than southern cities.
Darwin or Cairns weather would allow you to wear shorts and T-shirt year around.
What about Whitsunday Region, like Airlie Beach? Too much vacations/party going on?
I curious where is Australia is your house? (if you are willing to share)

sailor,
who wants to spend some major time visiting Australia if he ever ERs

 

[DangerMouse]

Darwin and Cairns are both tropical locations so when it is wet season it can be difficult living. Actually wet season in Darwin is probably a good time to be employed so you can go to work all day and sit in an air conditioned office with the electricity bill being paid by someone else. Also swimming is very much restricted at both locations for 6 months of the year due to stingers. Nothing would get me to get into the water in Darwin at any time due to the crocodile issues.

Airlie Beach not quite so tropical, however I think it is very much part of the backpacker trail so not sure how happening it would be for a typical member of this board unless you were into sailing big time.

 

[Ozziedreamer]

Ozzie, sorry for sidetracking your discussion, but every one of these overseas thread seems to get side tracked this way. It's not surprising considering most of the people who can ditch everything and relocate are probably middle aged+ single men, so topic of the Asian women invariably gets brought up even if we try mightily to avoid it.

OK, in all seriousness, I did want to ask you when you bought your house as a primary residence, did you consider what kind of cap rate you could get if you rented it out? Most folks when buying their primary residence look at the house, the location, the amenities, the distance to work, and the school district, but they rarely consider if it would make sense as a rental. If this is the case for you, then I'd seriously consider selling the property. If you still foresee coming back to visit, as a single person, you can crash at your friends' and relatives' houses if you are a reasonable house guest.

I have a bunch of rental properties, and I'm using one of the cheapest condos as my residence now, but if I intend to travel for 6 months or more, I'll rent out the condo. If I need to come back to manage the properties, I'll just live at my sister's place 70 miles away. Keeping the place empty will eat up far too much money.

Good points. I could rent my house out. Hanging on to the house also means I would benefit from any capital gains in the longer term. On the other hand, selling and putting the money in the bank means I would only pay 10% tax on interest if I declare myself a non resident for tax purposes. Will need to speak to a tax specialist closer to the time.

 

[Ozziedreamer]

Ozzie,
not exactly answering your questions, but just scratching my head about "grass is greener"
I thought that except for the temples and green stuff there are places in OZ which would fit at least some of your requirements?
My casual observation was that "warmer" places in Australia seemed to have more relaxed lifestyles than southern cities.
Darwin or Cairns weather would allow you to wear shorts and T-shirt year around.
What about Whitsunday Region, like Airlie Beach? Too much vacations/party going on?
I curious where is Australia is your house? (if you are willing to share)

sailor,
who wants to spend some major time visiting Australia if he ever ERs

fair comments, and I may have been somewhat remiss in including all of my motivations, but these are just some of the things I could do in retirement in say Thailand which I will never be able to do if I retire early in Australia, no matter where I live in Australia, based on the cost here in Australia:

• eat out every day (never have to cook again) including local street food
• have someone do my laundry (never have to do my laundry again)
• go out to have a drink any night of the week I choose, and not break the budget
• have a maid come and clean my house every other day
• have a shave and one of those warm towel treatments on ones face at the barbers every other day
• have a thai / foot / head massage every day
• play golf every second day
• and if I so choose, and again not the primary driver, have a 20 or 30 something girlfriend in my 50's (which only a multi millionaire or rock star can think of doing in Aust)

thanks for everyone for the info.

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

... but these are just some of the things I could do in retirement in say Thailand which I will never be able to do if I retire early in Australia, no matter where I live in Australia, based on the cost here in Australia:

I call such things my Living Like A Prince lifestyle. Not my main reason to take the expat route, but I do enjoy that aspect.

• eat out every day (never have to cook again) including local street food

Never met an expat in the Phils that considered this a positive. Knew some, myself included, who thought that omnipresent bad food was one of the major reasons to leave the country.

 

[Lancelot]

• eat out every day (never have to cook again) including local street food
• have someone do my laundry (never have to do my laundry again)
• have a maid come and clean my house every other day
• have a shave and one of those warm towel treatments on ones face at the barbers every other day

The eating out gets old- for me at least.


I only have a one room "apartment" so I don't mind cleaning it but I hear what you are saying.

I spend about $2 weekly for laundry.

Shaves are cheap

 

[KingB]

After a reconnaissance trip, the omnipresent bad food was my second, big reason NOT to retire there in the first place.

...Omnipresent crime was the first reason.

-- Peter
.

What do you mean by bad food? Is it spoiled/rotten? Or taste is not to your expectation?

Were you victimized by crime? Crime is present in big cities - like here in Chicago, but perhaps not as bad as in Phil.

 

[Nords]

You don't have to eat balut every day to get your protein, but I've been quite happy here on Filipino food... both from neighborhood potlucks and from restaurants.

I've felt the same way about Vietnamese, Thai, Chinese (and all its varieties), Indonesian, Korean, and Japanese cuisine.

Same for Tex-Mex, European, and other world cuisines.

But I won't eat haggis again.

...Many men, probably most, who relocated here in the past, did so because it was cheap.
It was, but they didn't consider the other factors that affect one's enjoyment of daily life.
Reality can hit hard in this part of the world.
And, if one starts here with very little money, then he has no surplus to try again somewhere better.
He's locked in, with nowhere to go, and no money to go elsewhere.
Happens a lot.
Sad to see.

I heard that summarized by an expat in Bangkok as:
"I'm 58 years old, fat, bald, a smoker, and drunk. Where else could I live like this?!?"

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

What do you mean by bad food? Is it spoiled/rotten? Or taste is not to your expectation?

Prior to leaving the US, one of the things I misjudged about criteria for living in another country was underestimated the importance food would have on my quality of life. Living in the Phils has given me a new appreciation of how too much bad food can motivate prisoners to riot.

My opinions about food are based on living in Cebu and Dumaguete. Both towns had large markets aimed at the expat population. Most of the views expressed below are generalizations. There were a handful of Filipino cuisine food items that I loved, but there was too few of them.

Bad Raw Ingredients. Whatever genetic and ranching methods that make meat tough are the norm. Small variety of vegetables available. Veggies of their freshness can be found in California markets, but only in the dumpster. The various prepared flavorings that are not dried spices have way too much salt, sugar and MSG for any but a native Filipino's taste.

The good stuff includes pork (excluding chops), squid, fruit, and what few small fish species they have left. Some hardy veggies survive harvest, transport and storage like their versions of green beans and pumpkin-like squash.

Bad Sanitation. Stomach churning sanitation conditions at local markets, food stands and street vendors. I'll spare you the details but not the consequences. Nearly everything is cut up small and intentionally overcooked because they've learned that kills the things that cause food poisoning.

Bad Taste of Prepared Food. Nobody likes it but the Filipinos. Too much salt and MSG in all the places you'd expect to find some. Too much sugar in almost everything else. Flavorings found in no other nation's cuisine - and for good reason. During my 3 1/2 years in Vegas I walked past the best Filipino restaurant in town twice a week on my way to a dance studio. Only non-Filipino customers I ever saw were men with Filipina wives.

Prepared Food - street vendors. Was never brave enough to taste out of fear of risk to my health. No refrigeration, no provision for hand cleaning, cooking at low temperatures to save fuel and using the same surfaces & tools to handle raw meat and produce. Deep fried foods are immersed in hot oil, but the temperature is so low that the food is poached in rancid oil instead of fried. 'Frying' at low temperatures is pervasive at all levels of the restaurant business.

Prepared Food - Food Stands. More likely to have refrigeration or ice chests, hand and equipment washing facilities. Food is cooked in big batches and is ready to serve at mid morning, then it sits all day. I call the big pots of room temperature food 'bacteria farms'.

The spit roasted chicken stands have wooden chopping blocks made from a wood that is too soft for the task so the deep cuts become breeding grounds. I'm not the only foreigner who stood in line for some golden roast bird, got to the service window and physically recoiled at the stench of the chopping block.

Prepared Food - Restaurants. The best Filipino restaurants in Cebu were filled with people of means and taste. And the food was, in general, still just a refueling stop for me. Much of their food is no better than OK.

The best international cuisine restaurants run by Filipinos serve their culture's interpretation of the food, as passed through the available ingredients. It was almost always disappointing, but sometimes the alternate version was good for what it was - not what it was called.

The best international cuisine restaurants run by expats who know what they are doing, use imported ingredients are few in number, high in price and worth it.

Prepared Food - Home Cooking. Better than restaurants, still too much salt, MSG and sugar, and the odd flavor notes.

 

[KingB]

...From those two questions, I'll assume you've never been to The Philippines, other than, perhaps, to a tourist resort.
Every large city in the US will have at least one Filipino restaurant.
Go there, try the food, anything.
Eat there every meal, every day, for, say, two weeks.
Then please post here again and tell me your opinion of Filipino food.

...Before I traveled to The Philippines, I did go to several Filipino restaurants at home.
Terrible.
I thought the food couldn't be as bad in the country.
It was.
Before I went to The Philippines, I was invited to a Filipino home for a party in the family of my language teacher.
The food wasn't any better there either.

Now, that said, there are a few exceptions.
My favorite breakfast is the pork sausage with rice and fried eggs.
The name is "longanisa".
The pork wouldn't be clean, that's for sure, and every time I ate it, no matter where, the flavor was cloyingly sweet from being loaded with sugar.
The steamed buns, with BBQ pork inside are delicious.
Chinese-style buns, known as, salapao.
Again pork with lots of sugar.
Finally, they make a custard creme puff desert that is very tasty.
Sits out in the heat all day, with no refrigeration, and flies all around, but it's very tasty.

-- Peter
.

Thanks for the info.

I have been to Filipino restaurants (Chicago and Vegas) and have been invited to some Filipino gatherings and, in general, I did not find the food bad and look forward to eating their dishes. There are some exemptions similar to yours and these are the porks cooked with sugar. However, sometimes, the porks are cooked without the sugar and I like those (must be how different regions cook them). I don't know why pork is cooked with sugar at all. If I want something sweet, I will eat their custard pie (yum yum).

I wish I can eat every meal, every day, for, say, two weeks but I want to be diversified. I sometimes go for Korean food which I also like (except Kimchi).