Retirement Paradise is Panama

[nomo-aloha]

Panama sounds interesting and I may want to go visit on an extended stay. However I just have a difficult time convincing myself to invest in real estate outsied of the US. Anyone else have similar concerns?

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I've always shared your concerns in investing outside of the US. In the meantime, I've watched friends make fortunes in Costa Rica. I missed that ship..but have no real regrets because I wouldn't have slept well.

I think Panama is a different story. I mentioned earlier in this thread how pro-American everyone was. The cops do random stops and as soon as we said "tourista, norte americano" they would wave us on.

I don't know the exact number of us that pulled out of there when they got the canal back...but it was thousands and definately significant. They want us back.

The biggest thing contributing to my level of comfort is their banking industry. As I mentioned earlier, they do not want anything, like stealing land from americans, to disrupt what they have going on in that sector. I don't know exactly what's up down there...but something is going on. There are gorgeous highrises all over the place and many more slated to start.

Their pensionado thing is great and the tax breaks are unparralled. 20 years in some instances where your residence is tax free. However...if I am not mistaken, I think the taxes then become rather high (at least by Hawaii standards) I should probably not make that comment because I am not positive. But check it out.

I understand there has been some shady land deals up there in that Bocas del toro area. like anywhere else..i imagine you have to be smart. I would get a good realtor..I used Diana Bishop of panamarealtor.com , great lady and very hospitiable. She's a Canal brat..or whatever. American born and raised in Panama. I have 100% faith in her and IF I decide to buy...I will look no further.

Hope this helped.

 

[nomo-aloha]

PS...I should elaborate on why I trust Diana so much. I was looking at a place in Punta Patilla. 10,000 sq. ft. condo called Belagio, insanely huge and stunning. The servants had their own area of 2000 sq. ft. (including main kitchen) as well as their own elevator. They wanted $600,000 unfinished. I would have spent about $ 750,000 total when complete.

A heck of a lotta' money..yes, but that condo in Honolulu would be about 7 million. In fact, we don't even have anything like that in Honolulu.

Long story short....we became buddies and she talked me out of it. Thought I should wait and look at some smaller properties for less money that would offer a better return if I chose to sell.
I then unexpectedl had to come back to Hawaii. She lost out on a huge commision by being a nice person. I spent over two weeks with her (and often times her husband) They were realtor, tour guide and friends. I gave her $1000 bucks the day I left even though they protested.

Thank goodness I didn't buy the Balagio...she really saved my hyde.

 

[macdaddy]

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I've always shared your concerns in investing outside of the US. In the meantime, I've watched friends make fortunes in Costa Rica. I missed that ship..but have no real regrets because I wouldn't have slept well.

I think Panama is a different story. I mentioned earlier in this thread how pro-American everyone was. The cops do random stops and as soon as we said "tourista, norte americano" they would wave us on.

I don't know the exact number of us that pulled out of there when they got the canal back...but it was thousands and definately significant. They want us back.

The biggest thing contributing to my level of comfort is their banking industry. As I mentioned earlier, they do not want anything, like stealing land from americans, to disrupt what they have going on in that sector. I don't know exactly what's up down there...but something is going on. There are gorgeous highrises all over the place and many more slated to start.

Their pensionado thing is great and the tax breaks are unparralled. 20 years in some instances where your residence is tax free. However...if I am not mistaken, I think the taxes then become rather high (at least by Hawaii standards) I should probably not make that comment because I am not positive. But check it out.

I understand there has been some shady land deals up there in that Bocas del toro area. like anywhere else..i imagine you have to be smart. I would get a good realtor..I used Diana Bishop of panamarealtor.com , great lady and very hospitiable. She's a Canal brat..or whatever. American born and raised in Panama. I have 100% faith in her and IF I decide to buy...I will look no further.

Hope this helped.

Plenty of people have made fortunes in real estate in the US/worldwide over the same period. The RE bubble (low interest rates) rippled around the world. I think property in Costa Rica has been run up by speculators and won't sustain current levels. The whole appeal of that lifestyle is that someone can retire down there to a 50k condo/townhouse that would cost 300k in Florida. But now the 50k condo/townhouse is 200k...

And there is simply a LOT of land that can be developed - not just in CR but all up and down the coast. The last time I was down there I saw speculation as far as the northern parts of Nicaragua. Ridiculous.

Also there is not the same access to health care there (or in Panama) as in the US. Someone may uneventfully reside south of the border until they are mid 70s. After that, *I* at least would want to be near a US medical center. Costa Rica (et al) certainly has wonderful, talented doctors, but they don't have the same access to infrastructure (imaging equipment, cath labs, etc) or the same access to medical devices that someone in a moderately sized US city does.

 

[Sheryl]

BTW...I love your signature. It has my mind (and heart) racing.

Dorothy Parker - she's a gold mine of great quotes. I liked this one because I fear I'll be burning some bridges when I ER...

 

[Nords]

I liked this one because I fear I'll be burning some bridges when I ER...

How 'bout:

"Living well is the best revenge."
George Herbert
English clergyman & metaphysical poet (1593 - 1633)

 

[Arif]

The bay is a cess pool. It stinks like the streets of Bangkok. If you were to look at one of these (random) condos on a day that the wind was lite, you may not realise that you would be gagging soon after moving in. Definately a problem Panama needs to solve...and I am sure they will.

You're 100% right about the bay. It has gotten the attention of the government and are currently in phase 2 of the project to get funding to build a water treatment facility to handle the waste that is dumped into the bay.
I went to Casco Viejo with my wife yesterday and it is one of the most beautiful architecture (?) that I've ever seen. A lot of investors are buying up the 100 year old buildings and turning them into apartments, condos, restaraunts you name it. It is so amazing that some of the poorest people in Panama live right next door to the President of the country.  Also the only place I've seen where even poor people have ocean views from their living rooms.

I used Diana Bishop of panamarealtor.com , great lady and very hospitiable. She's a Canal brat..or whatever. American born and raised in Panama. I have 100% faith in her and IF I decide to buy...I will look no further.

The company she started "Panamarealtor.com" is one of the few companies I would use to buy real estate. We went with her to look at water front property and got a wonderful education on the going prices per meter, areas to avoid, and what to look out for. She is trying to operate like a realtor does in the US and doesn't raise the prices of her listings like the other agents do. I've even seen her selling the same property as Century 21 for over 250k LESS!!

Nomo--that's not even fair compairing Hawaii beaches to Panama. There's no comparison. Oahu has the most beautiful beaches in the world.

BTW-I'll post some pictures tonight of Casco Viejo and the skyline.

 

[nomo-aloha]

You're 100% right about the bay. It has gotten the attention of the government and are currently in phase 2 of the project to get funding to build a water treatment facility to handle the waste that is dumped into the bay.
I went to Casco Viejo with my wife yesterday and it is one of the most beautiful architecture (?) that I've ever seen. A lot of investors are buying up the 100 year old buildings and turning them into apartments, condos, restaraunts you name it. It is so amazing that some of the poorest people in Panama live right next door to the President of the country.  Also the only place I've seen where even poor people have ocean views from their living rooms.


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Hi Arif...I reallly enjoyed Casco Viejo, the splendid scenery made me look like I actually knew how to take photgraphs, lol. I was interested in a couple of those 'condos' (for a lack of better description) on a street reminescent of Nawlins' Bourbon street. The prolem with the area..at least for me, is because they are re-doing everything...I anticipate "neighborhood construction" going on until I die! Also, it looked like parking could be a real issue down there. There is a restaurant, I think on the same street as Ruben Blades' home called..."Cantina marbella" or something like that. Some of the best food I've ever had. No menu...you just get served whatever the chef found freshest that day. I would eat there 3 times per week ($20 per) if I lived in Panama.

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The company she started "Panamarealtor.com" is one of the few companies I would use to buy real estate. We went with her to look at water front property and got a wonderful education on the going prices per meter, areas to avoid, and what to look out for. She is trying to operate like a realtor does in the US and doesn't raise the prices of her listings like the other agents do. I've even seen her selling the same property as Century 21 for over 250k LESS!!
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I seems an on-going problem for realtors down there, is that there is no MLS. She mentioned that a seller will tell one company they want XXXX dollars, then later tell another company they will settle for XXX dollars and vice versa. Every once in a while you meet a genuinely nice and decent person. She is just that.

Please tell he the gringo (with girl touble) from Hawaii says aloha and I am not finished with her services. I would appreciate that very much if you would.

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Nomo--that's not even fair compairing Hawaii beaches to Panama. There's no comparison. Oahu has the most beautiful beaches in the world.

BTW-I'll post some pictures tonight of Casco Viejo and the skyline.

Sounds great! BTW.. Have they started building the new condos out on the causeway yet? The drawings (and location) look very promising.....but probably a bit too pricey (?).

 

[Arif]

Sounds great! BTW.. Have they started building the new condos out on the causeway yet? The drawings (and location) look very promising.....but probably a bit too pricey (?).

Not yet. I've seen the drawings and that is going to be a very nice property when it is done. I don't know anything about the developers but if it turns out the way the plans look then they will sell those things with no problem.
I've heard that the vacancy rate amoung condos in the city is at 40%! Not sure how true that is but they are also planning on building another 153 buildings within the next 3-5. I don't know a whole lot about condo prices here but it kind of makes me think that eventually bargains will show up when investors can no longer service the debt with no rent coming in. Then you have to worry about everyone paying their assoc. fees on top of their mortgages.

 

[pbrane]

Hi:

I appreciate the Panama discussion. I've recently been comparing condo prices/values in Panama City to those in Thailand (or, at least trying to). I'm looking in the under US$100k range, and it seems like you get a lot more square footage in Panama for the same price. The downside is that they're all in Panama City (closest decent beaches at least an hour drive away (is that correct?). whereas in Thailand, you can find 'em right on the beach (but smaller units). Life's alll about trade-offs, eh?

 

[haha]

Hi:

I appreciate the Panama discussion. I've recently been comparing condo prices/values in Panama City to those in Thailand (or, at least trying to).  I'm looking in the under US$100k range, and it seems like you get a lot more square footage in Panama for the same price. The downside is that they're all in Panama City (closest decent beaches at least an hour drive away (is that correct?).  whereas in Thailand, you can find 'em right on the beach (but smaller units). Life's alll about trade-offs, eh?

If what you like is beach, take the Thai beachfront. There is really no comparison. For beach life it would d be better to live in an efficiency at the beach, than a mansion an hour away.

Ha

 

[nomo-aloha]

Not yet. I've seen the drawings and that is going to be a very nice property when it is done. I don't know anything about the developers but if it turns out the way the plans look  then they will sell those things with no problem.
I've heard that the vacancy rate amoung condos in the city is at 40%! Not sure how true that is but they are also planning on building another 153 buildings within the next 3-5. I don't know a whole lot about condo prices here but it kind of makes me think that eventually bargains will show up when investors can no longer service the debt with no rent coming in. Then you have to worry about everyone paying their assoc. fees on top of their mortgages.

Good morning, Arif..

I'm thinking about that causeway project. Am I wrong or are those condos basically all around 500sq. ft? (50 meters?). It seems to me that was a sticking point but I honestly cannot recall.

Another thing that concerned me about that area is that it is so prized. I think if there ever were to be any governmental shenanigans, that area would be involved.

Certainly weekend traffic also a factor.... but my oh my, what a splendid view and location. Stunning.

Another thing that had me conerned about PYC, as you mention, is the number of available rentals. It all seems so very attractive when they are asking $1000 per month for a $100,000 unit....but it don't mean much if you can't fill the unit. To compound my concern is all those new highrises going in that you mention. This is why I stated that I couldn't really get a graspon what exactly was happening down there. Columbian drug money laundering? Why build another zillion units if you are curretly 40% unoccupied? I am also keeping a close eye on things down there. Even if not the best investment in the world, because of the massive inventory...I would still like to get some Paitilla unit to call home...at a much reduced price.

Good luck down there!

 

[Arif]

I'm thinking about that causeway project. Am I wrong or are those condos basically all around 500sq. ft? (50 meters?). It seems to me that was a sticking point but I honestly cannot recall.

For everyone that's wondering what we are talking about here's a link to the property:
http://www.compreoalquile.com/web/consultas?propid=2326&cid=936584
Click above the picture on the word "SIGUIENTE" to see additional renderings.

It doesn't mention anything about the size of the condos but at $155k you bet they are going to be small so they cram as many units in that building as they can. That being said, the project looks really nice in the drawings.

Another thing that concerned me about that area is that it is so prized. I think if there ever were to be any governmental shenanigans, that area would be involved.

I really don't worry about the gov't seizing land or anything that "radical". That would unravel all the work they've been doing to promote Panama as both a vacation and retirement location.

Columbian drug money laundering?

A lot of locals think so.

I'm concentrating my efforts on beachfront property that seems undervalued in places like Punta Chime. It's got terrible roads but it's closer to the city. If the gov't ever decides to fix the roads out there prices would easily double. The current sitting president owns land out there so that might push things along. If not, I'll just own beachfront lots which is not such a bad thing 

 

[nomo-aloha]

Hi:

I appreciate the Panama discussion. I've recently been comparing condo prices/values in Panama City to those in Thailand (or, at least trying to).  I'm looking in the under US$100k range, and it seems like you get a lot more square footage in Panama for the same price. The downside is that they're all in Panama City (closest decent beaches at least an hour drive away (is that correct?).  whereas in Thailand, you can find 'em right on the beach (but smaller units). Life's alll about trade-offs, eh?

Indeed,

Your dilemma has haunted me (as well) since I returned from Panama (PYC). I pretty much thought I had things all figured out prior to that trip.

While Pattaya...(coincidently also referred to as PYC) is a tad seedy and filled with many undesireables...oft times including myself, Jomptien is a pretty nice option.

I like this area because of it's proximity to BKK (2 hours) and the fact that you can drive to BKK. Were you thinking of an area like this or maybe Hua Hin or Cha am? Samui, maybe?

I love the Kingdom. I really do. The place is exotic x 10. But I do not like the heat nor do I like the distance from the US. If american sports is important to you, as it is to me, Thailand also lacks that coverage when compared to Panama. Time zones ar also a factor. I know this sounds trivial, but I am a hardcore Seahawk fan and we are finally poised to make some noise, lol.

Anyway...if the heat, a lack of american television and the extreme distance is no problem for you, I think Thailand is definately a better value. I am not aware of many fantastic deals left in Samui or Phuket (maybe Rawai?) and Pattaya is not for everyone. You want ocean so that leaves out Chiang Mai....which is too bad. I think there is still real good value up that way, the climate is better and it's easier to make your monthly march across the border (if you need your visa stamped).

In all honesty....I would feel safer in Thailand than Panama. I don't know why....but after the many "adventures" I've experienced in life....I just have a gut feeling. My gut has been wrong before, but I have been going to Thailand for about 15 years and have had a total of ZERO problems while there.

However...if buying property (condo) I would feel more comfortable in Panama. PM Thaksin is a major crook
and the royal family seems to be turning a blind eye to this fact. (NEVER say a bad word about his majesty...NEVER. I am looking over my shoulder as I type, lol).

Thailand has not impressed me as a place that wants us there. Lots of smiles in the "land of smiles", but they want our money, then they want us to leave. I can respect that and will continue to look for other destinations.

Hope this helps.

 

[nomo-aloha]

For everyone that's wondering what we are talking about here's a link to the property:
http://www.compreoalquile.com/web/consultas?propid=2326&cid=936584
Click above the picture on the word "SIGUIENTE" to see additional renderings.

It doesn't mention anything about the size of the condos but at $155k you bet they are going to be small so they cram as many units in that building as they can. That being said, the project looks really nice in the drawings.

I really don't worry about the gov't seizing land or anything that "radical". That would unravel all the work they've been doing to promote Panama as both a vacation and retirement location. 
A lot of locals think so.

I'm concentrating my efforts on beachfront property that seems undervalued in places like Punta Chime. It's got terrible roads but it's closer to the city. If the gov't ever decides to fix the roads out there prices would easily double. The current sitting president owns land out there so that might push things along. If not, I'll just own beachfront lots which is not such a bad thing 

Do you currently live in Panama? I am also interested in those lots at Punta Chime....wasn't that area relatively close to PYC? We did not make the trek down that road, but the pics look great. Is power and water available? How much can a guy get a smallish (10,000 sq. ft.) lot for on the water?

Is the property with the views towards (?) that island? I'm sorry but the name escapes me.

I felt Coronado was very nice but a bit too far from PYC for my needs (entertainment, airport). Would you describe the beach of Punta Chime as comparable to Coronado? Just how bad is the drive don that road? I've heard varying stories. 4 wheel only and a half hour of rock-n-roll?

Thanks alot for your advice/opinion. I consider it invaluable. I know this is petty....but with satellite, can you get American sports..ESPN, football and such? I had no time for television during my stay at El Panama (great pool!) but would desire this petty luxury if I were to be there full time.

Thanks once again.

 

[Arif]

Do you currently live in Panama? I am also interested in those lots at Punta Chime....wasn't that area relatively close to PYC? We did not make the trek down that road, but the pics look great. Is power and water available? How much can a guy get a smallish (10,000 sq. ft.) lot for on the water?

Is the property with the views towards (?) that island? I'm sorry but the name escapes me.

I felt Coronado was very nice but a bit too far from PYC for my needs (entertainment, airport). Would you describe the beach of Punta Chime as comparable to Coronado? Just how bad is the drive don that road? I've heard varying stories. 4 wheel only and a half hour of rock-n-roll?

Thanks alot for your advice/opinion. I consider it invaluable. I know this is petty....but with satellite, can you get American sports..ESPN, football and such? I had no time for television during my stay at El Panama (great pool!) but would desire this petty luxury if I were to be there full time.

Yeah we moved down here last December and just love it. All utilities are available in Punta Chime which basically a long finger sticking out from the ocean. You can get lots in Punta Chime for about $50/sq mtr. Depending on where you settle along that finger determines how far you are from PC. Looking at my map, if you travel all the way to the tip, that distance is actually farther to PC than Coronado.

We use regular cable although they do have satelite (Direct TV)here. When we moved here my Redskins had just made it to the playoffs (although brief) and I watched all the games at home on cable. BTW- Even though they have direct tv they don't have tivo or a replay service which I really miss.

 

[pbrane]

Thanks for the generous comments...

I agree with everything said (even though I don't have 1st-hand info on either place.. I've been doing a lot of reading). Panama seems more inviting to retirees, especially norteamericanos; probably better internet and tv than Thailand; easier to own land (and probably better value anyway); but beaches fairly remote; not as cheap overall(?) Then Thailand has cheap food, oozing culture, "nice" women, massage, acupuncture, good doc's and dentists etc.

I guess I'll just have to try them both (hey hey HEY).

By the way, if you guys are referring to Punta Chame, I just read that it's good for windsurfing, which means it might be too windy for my taste...

Thanks again,
-pb

 

[nomo-aloha]

Yeah we moved down here last December and just love it. All utilities are available in Punta Chime which basically a long finger sticking out from the ocean. You can get lots in Punta Chime for about $50/sq mtr. Depending on where you settle along that finger determines how far you are from PC. Looking at my map, if you travel all the way to the tip, that distance is actually farther to PC than Coronado.

We use regular cable although they do have satelite (Direct TV)here. When we moved here my Redskins had just made it to the playoffs (although brief) and I watched all the games at home on cable. BTW- Even though they have direct tv they don't have tivo or a replay service which I really miss.

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So Arif, Are you actually living at the Punta Chime site right now..or are you elsewhere in Panama?

So, a 1000 meter lot is about 10,000 sq. ft (if i'm not mistaken) @$50 per....so, $50,000 will get a beachfront lot?

I imagine the lots vary in price...how nice of a lot, and how close to PYC will $75,000 buy? Do the lots view the islands or ships headed to the canal?

I hate to pester you but, how much do you figure it costs to build @ Punta Chime...considering the road and all. I'm not thinking of 5 star...but something nice and @ about 150 sq. meters in size. Have you had any experience with construction there? One concern I would have would be...How competent and available the labor pool would be with so much building going on in PYC.

Do you need 4WD to get to these sites and does the road get so bad that it may become inaccessable?

Again I apologise for the many questions, but I wasted alot of time looking at condos while there...perhaps I should have been paying more attention to the beach.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

[Arif]

So Arif, Are you actually living at the Punta Chime site right now..or are you elsewhere in Panama?

No, we live on the outskirts of Panama City.

So, a 1000 meter lot is about 10,000 sq. ft (if i'm not mistaken) @$50 per....so, $50,000 will get a beachfront lot?

Yep, although the smallest lot I've seen advertised there was about 2000 meters for $100k. For comparison Gorgona is closer to Coronado with better roads and goes for $100/ sq mtr.

I hate to pester you but, how much do you figure it costs to build @ Punta Chime...considering the road and all. I'm not thinking of 5 star...but something nice and @ about 150 sq. meters in size. Have you had any experience with construction there? One concern I would have would be...How competent and available the labor pool would be with so much building going on in PYC.

From what I've heard it costs around $600 per sq mtr to build a decent home. But this price is bare bones and doesn't include amenities or must haves such as appliances, AC, cabinets, etc. Not much experience with the building process since we've only been here since December. We have talked with HSBC about financing and have that pretty much nailed down. Our plan is to find already existing construction that we like and ask whoever built it to also build our home. Hopefully that will take some of the "issues" out of building our home. I've been told a typical home here takes about 8-10 months to build.

Do you need 4WD to get to these sites and does the road get so bad that it may become inaccessable?

Everytime we've been out there we've been in a 4x4. During the rainy season that might be an issue. Hopefully they'll pave it and the ride won't be so bad. Still have more research to do so we are just taking our time to find the perfect lot for us.

 

[Chan]

This is my first post on this site. I found the ER site yesterday.and have spent a good amount of time since, reading the various topics (and there are a lot). I'd like to introduce a place where an enjoyable retirement is still possible, and you may not need a much as many of the posts on the site indicate people think they need
to enjoy life.
    We live in a small town about twenty minutes from Panama City. Panama.
From our new home (May 04) we can set on the patio, and watch ships in the Bay of Panama, or the lights of our city, or beautiful mountains.  The home cost us $65, 000 in a brand new subdivision. Lesser sized new homes in subdivisions can be purchased for $30,000.  The interest rate, if one needed a loan is 3:5%.
No taxes on new homes for 20 years.


How about school there? My son is now 10 years old. I want him to go to a school with IB ? Is there any international school there? What's the fee like?


   To get your residence visa as a Pensionado (retiree) You must be able to prove a monthly income of $600 and $150 for each dependent. The most common form of proof  is your US Social Security payment statement. You can have the US Social Security check sent to a Panama bank, but many of us just
keep our US Bank account, and do the US banking stuff over the internet, then
keep a local bank  for our Panama banking needs.  Can Americans live on $750
a month. There are guys who post that they do.  My guess is a minimun of a $1000 or $1200 would be a more realistic figure. The official retirement type sites down here say one will spend about 35% less, than in the states. My own figures show that we can live for less than half what we spent in the states and we live better here.
   Once one gets their residence visa with the Pensionado status, you simply show your Pensionado card to get 25% off  your electric bill, your basic telephone line, your water bill. Your food portion of any meals, hotels airline tickets and many other items. There is no extra discount in grocery, furniture,
etc stores, but whatever you can find in America is in some store in Panama City.
   Most of us use hospitals and doctors in Panama City for most medical, the
doctors are outstanding and lots of them have trained in the states. Many also speak English.  Spanish is the official language, but English is understood and spoken by many.  The official money is the US dollar, remember this is a country that has had a lot of Americans living here since the early 1900's.
  In our small town, we have a group of ex-pats that meet every Thursday evening at a local restaurant to enjoy the $3.99 ribs and just chat. Not only will you find Americans there, but also Canadians, and  Australians. Go up to Boquete which has a cooler climate, and you'll find people from many European countries as well. All here for one reason, Panama is a retirement Paradise.
   Come visit and see if you don't agree.  There are over 20,000 of us already here, so the first thing I would caution is don't pay anybody  for just plain info about Panama. You will, of course, end up paying lawyers to file residence paperwork, real estate tranactions, etc. But there are alot of sites on the Internet that make it sound like you need to pay them for info about things
in Panama. You Don't. I'm not going to post them here now, but there is alot of sites to go to get more info. Just let me know if anyone needs them.
DW wanted me to mention her $10 a day maid. And the fact that ER is not only
possible, but lets you start doing  the things you really want to do, not what your boss tells you to. Our recomendation-retire early-If not today-Soon.