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Old 10-05-2017, 09:05 PM   #21
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I've seen discussion of this case here and elsewhere, and it is NOT a trespass case. Trespassing doesn't get to SCOTUS. It is about probable cause for arrest.

As the Supreme's questioning indicated, they are rather suspicious of the officers' decision to mass-arrest party-goers (i.e., rather than an order to disperse, legally followed by arrest if they fail to do so).

It got to SCOTUS because the police lost in court for false arrest.
You are right, it is not a trespass case. The decision will have implications far beyond trespassing. Anyone will be allowed to go into any home, if someone tells them it's OK and implies that they have permission. It won't have to be a bunch of people in a house, maybe just one.

So if the crowd disperses after partying for several hours and there are no arrests, what is the incentive to NOT do it again, or at all.

If there is not probable cause to arrest, then that opens the doors to go into any vacant house and have a fun time. Worse case, you get asked to leave. No one saw you do damage, or steal, so no one has to pay.

If there can be no arrests in a vacant house, it may follow onto other activities.

If a friend says you can use a car, even if it's not his, you likely cannot get arrested. You thought it was his to allow you to drive. He had the keys in the ignition and said take it.

Of if a friend says "Go ahead and go in the house and take the TV", you will not get arrested for that either.

This is a big can of worms...
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Old 10-05-2017, 09:48 PM   #22
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You are right, it is not a trespass case. The decision will have implications far beyond trespassing. Anyone will be allowed to go into any home, if someone tells them it's OK and implies that they have permission. It won't have to be a bunch of people in a house, maybe just one.

So if the crowd disperses after partying for several hours and there are no arrests, what is the incentive to NOT do it again, or at all.

If there is not probable cause to arrest, then that opens the doors to go into any vacant house and have a fun time. Worse case, you get asked to leave. No one saw you do damage, or steal, so no one has to pay.

If there can be no arrests in a vacant house, it may follow onto other activities.

If a friend says you can use a car, even if it's not his, you likely cannot get arrested. You thought it was his to allow you to drive. He had the keys in the ignition and said take it.

Of if a friend says "Go ahead and go in the house and take the TV", you will not get arrested for that either.

This is a big can of worms...
Its actually not a can of worms at all. I'm not sure how you could infer that from reading what is being decided here.

If you are thinking that it might become possible for someone to force their way into one of your vacant properties, and when discovered by police they could simply say "I was invited" and be set free you are mistaken.

If someone breaks in and stays a few weeks, then call a plumber when the sink backs up are you thinking the plumber should be arrested if the cops show up during his service call?
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:09 PM   #23
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Its actually not a can of worms at all. I'm not sure how you could infer that from reading what is being decided here.

If you are thinking that it might become possible for someone to force their way into one of your vacant properties, and when discovered by police they could simply say "I was invited" and be set free you are mistaken.

If someone breaks in and stays a few weeks, then call a plumber when the sink backs up are you thinking the plumber should be arrested if the cops show up during his service call?
That is exactly what may happen. And even if you are gone for an evening, it could happen. It doesn't have to be a rental and it doesn't have to be a long time.

Someone, or a group, says they are invited by someone else. The someone else may exist, or not. They willingly leave when the cops show up and say they are sorry. No arrests. The damage was there before they got there, and there never was a TV on the wall.

How is that different than this SCOTUS case?. In the current case, the cops arrested everyone. The charges were all dropped.

With the current district court ruling, no one can even be arrested.

Property crime rarely gets solved as it is, this is a "get out of jail free card" for lots of riff-raff.
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:25 PM   #24
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No.. it's not a get out of jail free card. This decision has exactly nothing to do with what happens if someone breaks into your house. People say they were charged with crimes they did not commit, and the decision is about whether the officers involved had probable cause to make the charge. The people charged didnt break into a house, neither side is disputing that.
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:30 PM   #25
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Also.. with the current district court ruling, Peaches can be arrested if the owner were to bring charges, as she was the person that unlawfully entered the property. The case isnt about that, however, its about charges brought against the others she invited.
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Old 10-06-2017, 02:50 AM   #26
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No.. it's not a get out of jail free card. This decision has exactly nothing to do with what happens if someone breaks into your house. People say they were charged with crimes they did not commit, and the decision is about whether the officers involved had probable cause to make the charge. The people charged didnt break into a house, neither side is disputing that.

Also.. with the current district court ruling, Peaches can be arrested if the owner were to bring charges, as she was the person that unlawfully entered the property. The case isn't about that, however, its about charges brought against the others she invited.
And what is the difference between someone (or a group) that breaks into your house, and someone that says they were invited by someone else? And that someone may not even exist, except in the virtual world.

Did you know that sometimes criminal lie? And smart defense lawyers are pretty smart? And cops will often take the easy way out, and another Ferguson effect could result with break-ins?
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:39 AM   #27
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Isn't a parallel the situation where you are unknowingly in possession of stolen property? AFAIK, the officials confiscate the property, but you are not charged with a crime.

Hard to prove if guests are at a place on a 'wink-wink-nod-nod', 'somebody' invited me, or they really thought it was a legit place to have a party.

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Old 10-06-2017, 08:45 AM   #28
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Wasn't there somewhat similar situation with a case about a year ago where this live in nanny got fired but refused to leave saying she can't be evicted because that's a her place of residence? I think eventually, she got shamed to leave with all the publicity but was a big headache for the home owners.
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:48 AM   #29
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Wasn't there somewhat similar situation with a case about a year ago where this live in nanny got fired but refused to leave saying she can't be evicted because that's a her place of residence? I think eventually, she got shamed to leave with all the publicity but was a big headache for the home owners.
That went to the Supreme Court?

+1@ swguy. This case is about probable cause, not trespassing, and is not likely to lead to the type of chaos or lawlessness that Senator fears.
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:59 AM   #30
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That went to the Supreme Court?

+1@ swguy. This case is about probable cause, not trespassing, and is not likely to lead to the type of chaos or lawlessness that Senator fears.
Didn't go to supreme court. That's why I said somewhat similar to give some wiggle room .

One similarity, of course is, my place, I want to be the king of the castle.
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:10 AM   #31
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I don't know how this case will turn out, but if anyone hears of a similar place, let me know.
You have a PM.

Just kidding. I live in the area and I have seen flyers placed on dozens of cars, especially in parking lots of legitimate "gentlemen's clubs" for "afterhours parties". It's unintended consequences from elimination of most of the legitimate clubs in the area. What I don't understand is if neighbors complain and the police show up and say "you're disturbing the peace......cut it out, leave, or be arrested", who would stick around to be arrested? It's a waste of law enforcement and judicial resources.
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:17 AM   #32
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This case is about probable cause, not trespassing, and is not likely to lead to the type of chaos or lawlessness that Senator fears.
I do not disagree. And if a bunch of unknown people are having a party in your house while you spent a week away traveling, there will be no probable cause to arrest any of them.

That could be the fallout.
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:37 AM   #33
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That went to the Supreme Court?

+1@ swguy. This case is about probable cause, not trespassing, and is not likely to lead to the type of chaos or lawlessness that Senator fears.
This. And even more important is that of qualified immunity of the officers. The trespassing aspect of it will have zero bearing on future trespassing issues.

As for the comment on "thousands of dollars" on a battery back-up alarm...um, there is Simplisafe...much, MUCH cheaper than the "old school" systems.
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:50 AM   #34
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This. And even more important is that of qualified immunity of the officers. The trespassing aspect of it will have zero bearing on future trespassing issues.
Imagine if the officers are held personally liable for the 'false' arrests. I suspect that they will have much less incentive to pursue property crimes such as a bunch, or even one, person in the wrong house.
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:27 AM   #35
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Solution: Always set the alarm before you leave. With most alarms, unless it's disarmed, it makes a racket, and keeps making a racket (whooping). The trespassers don't know if the cops will come automatically or if the neighbors will call the cops. The perps would have to figure out how to disable it. Most alarms have battery backup inside a steel box hidden and bolted to a wall somewhere, so flipping a breaker isn't going to do it. You'd have to find the box, force the box open or tear it off the wall. It doesn't sound like these perps were that kind of people, lol!

If the house of the court case had an alarm, we wouldn't be having this discussion. What they should do is throw the case out and scold the house owners for being idiots.
Unless if it's in St Paul...

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St. Paul Police said they lowered burglary alarms from an immediate response to a sort of "get-there-when-you-can" call because a spike in false alarms cost the city about $2.6 million in 2016.
False Alarms Lead St. Paul Police to Move Burglary Calls Down Priority List | KSTP.com
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:16 AM   #36
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False Alarms Lead St. Paul Police to Move Burglary Calls Down Priority List | KSTP.com[/url]
We have had neighbours with poorly installed security systems that trigger when a strong wind rattles the windows and doors. The alarm goes off and the police don't come.

Same reason given. We decided to go with a system that flashed lights and annunciated that "A silent alarm has been triggered" repeatedly.
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:05 PM   #37
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If I (or anyone) comes home to someone, or multiple people in my home without MY invitation, I am afraid that I will be the one going to jail, because they could very well be leaving in bags.

Home invasion is no joke.
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Old 10-06-2017, 01:58 PM   #38
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If I (or anyone) comes home to someone, or multiple people in my home without MY invitation, I am afraid that I will be the one going to jail, because they could very well be leaving in bags.

Home invasion is no joke.
+1

I have several hole makers myself.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:46 PM   #39
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That is exactly what may happen. And even if you are gone for an evening, it could happen. It doesn't have to be a rental and it doesn't have to be a long time.

Someone, or a group, says they are invited by someone else. The someone else may exist, or not. They willingly leave when the cops show up and say they are sorry. No arrests. The damage was there before they got there, and there never was a TV on the wall.

How is that different than this SCOTUS case?. In the current case, the cops arrested everyone. The charges were all dropped.

With the current district court ruling, no one can even be arrested.

Property crime rarely gets solved as it is, this is a "get out of jail free card" for lots of riff-raff.


I think you are confusing a criminal violation with a civil one....

No matter what is decided in this case there is nothing stopping you from suing all the people for any damages to your property, including missing TV.... just file your case against every person that you have a name in one case.... let the judge sort out who will pay....

One will hope that the cops are taking names etc. of the people as that is not at issue in this case as far as I can tell...

You are right that property crime is not solved... but that is because they never got any person in the property...
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:55 PM   #40
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Someone, or a group, says they are invited by someone else. The someone else may exist, or not. They willingly leave when the cops show up and say they are sorry. No arrests. The damage was there before they got there, and there never was a TV on the wall.

How is that different than this SCOTUS case?. In the current case, the cops arrested everyone. The charges were all dropped.
That is not what happened in the case. The people proved , before they were arrested, that the person who invited them was real. It was not until the police got in touch with the person, who then admitted that yes she did invite them but did not have permission to use the house, were arrests made.

If you are using something that is not yours, and cops show up, they are not going to let you walk away unless they can get in touch with whomever you claim gave you permission. They will try to quickly find out if it was made it up and act accordingly.
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