What to do if you want to retire abroad

[martyp]

To the person who mentioned Thailand, I can relate. The flights from Singapore to Thailand were also cheap and plentiful. However, the requirement to leave the country and return every few months to satisfy the retirement visa is perhaps something a future 80+ year old person like myself would prefer not to do. Also, health care for people in their 70's and 80's is not possible, I suspect that you are in your 50's or 60's, and you certainly can do that at that age. I would, also.

Rob

Just a slight correction on your comment about Thailand . . .

For those retiring in Thailand on a non-immigrant O visa you do not have to leave and return every 90 days. That is one option that some people chose however you can also choose to extend your visa one year at a time without ever leaving the country. You just have to meet the financial requirements.

You also are not required to have health insurance if you remain here on a non-O visa and extensions. You also don’t need health insurance if you are married to a Thai if that is where your life takes you.

I am here on a non-immigrant OA visa and I am on my 4th extension. I am required to have health insurance. My Thai insurance premium is less than my US insurance was though I have about a $1500 deductible. You can buy a lot of medical care for $1500 here and I can easily afford this. I will admit that if you are over 70 years old when you first buy insurance then that could be a problem.

 

[Bryan Barnfellow]

My wife and I are in our 12th year of moving to Europe (Switzerland) from the USA (Maine). We are both more comfortable with the European lifestyle, culture and mindset. Some things have taken time to get used to -- taxes are low but there are user fees on many things; healthcare is universally required of all residents, however you pay for it yourself all of your life (sort of like Obamacare for everyone, generally your employer doesn't pay for it); most retail is closed on Sundays (which has turned out to be a blessing...everyone goes out into nature, do things on the lakes, tan on beaches, visits with family, or window shops in town). Finally, no checks in the banking system. You pay invoices by bank transfer from your account to the biller's account. I love this system...takes seconds online or a few minutes at the local post office. Cash and credit card in retail situations of course.

It's an intensely private country...your business is largely your own (unless it's not legal). For example, the government (very weak federal in a system of strong cantons) wanted to eliminate the 1,000 Swiss franc currency note but there was overwhelming opposition. The Swiss feel that they should be able to conduct some large cash business transactions without the government having access to an electronic record of it. Again, not illegal stuff, just MYOB transactions. I have held some of these notes in my hand. It is a weird feeling!

We plan to stay indefinitely. We love our location in a small city on an alpine lake, easy access to travel throughout Europe by train, car, or air, and the general friendliness of everyone here. I have not encountered rudeness, as a rule. We have to be careful about spending because this is one of the most expensive countries in the world and the Swiss franc is about 30% overvalued. Ninety percent of our income derives from US-based investments, so I am a keen observer of exchange rate trends. I would never consider investing anywhere else...it's the best system in the world in terms of law, transparency and access to information. The Swiss brokerages are medieval by comparison in some senses.

What I miss in the US is the convenience of shopping, the easy going casualness of my fellow Americans, the diversity in race, and the cold, snowy winters of Maine! We live in southern Switzerland (just to the south of the Alps, on the border with northern Italy) where it snows once/twice a year, palm trees are everywhere, and a lot of plants flower through the winter. As someone who spent a decade in Maine, I find this a bit bewildering. "What, no mud season?" But extremely enjoyable now that I am in my mid-sixties.

We have permanent residence right now and plan to seek citizenship, while keeping our US passports as well. We have many reasons to travel back to the US (friends, family, Walmart for cheaper over the counter medications--one can pay 10 Swiss francs for 10 ibuprofen tablets).

-BB

 

[Out of Steam]

Oh, I've never thought it was anywhere near that bad. And for most of my life I lived within an hour and a half bicycle ride of the Washington Monument.

I admit to having been very shaken by the experience of January 6th, which came remarkably close to succeeding. It also appears that there will be few repercussions for the plotters. I still believe that the US is in a powder keg situation, and am working on getting a second passport I am eligible for through my immigrant parents.

 

[ncbill]

Getting health insurance was the one aspect of retiring overseas when you are in your 70's or 80's that made me hesitate. I know you can do it, but it's expensive and probably won't cover any pre-exisiting conditions. When I lived in Singapore until the age of 67, I was teaching part-time, and my insurance was about $4000/year, but had a very high deductible and did not cover pre-existing conditions. I know the same is true in Thailand, but even though the healthcare is inexpensive in Thailand, health care costs can mount up. Someone living there now certainly knows more than I do, but I suspect they are in their 50's or 60's, and health insurance is much easier to acquire.

I inquired about the retirement visa in Panama and Portugal, because those countries allow you to get into their respective government healthcare systems after a few years.

Rob

The reality is most expats just pay out of pocket given how much cheaper healthcare is outside the U.S., though I know in Mexico many also buy into the public health system as catastrophic e.g. "hit by a bus" insurance since it costs only a few hundred bucks/year.

You can always keep paying for Part B so you have coverage back in the U.S. for serious medical procedures...one expat in Mexico I followed online came back for an organ transplant via Medicare, then returned to Mexico.

Frankly, in your 70s/80s you need to start thinking about quality of life over quantity...had a relative recently die who had discontinued their chemo because it was putting them into the ICU for over a week with internal bleeding after every round of treatment.

 

[Leo1277]

I admit to having been very shaken by the experience of January 6th, which came remarkably close to succeeding. It also appears that there will be few repercussions for the plotters. I still believe that the US is in a powder keg situation, and am working on getting a second passport I am eligible for through my immigrant parents.

Yep, same here. We have our "mental evacuation kit" ready, with three possible locations in different corners of the world to go to, with immediate use hotels, medium term rentals, and health care all figured out. One bottleneck is flights, and in January because of Covid, it would have been somewhat hard to get out; but even then you could go to Europe with an intermediate stop in the Yucatan in Mexico and no quarantine, a friend did that.

 

[JDARNELL]

I admit to having been very shaken by the experience of January 6th, which came remarkably close to succeeding. It also appears that there will be few repercussions for the plotters. I still believe that the US is in a powder keg situation, and am working on getting a second passport I am eligible for through my immigrant parents.

Interesting perspective. I viewed it as how bad it could have gone and people showed restraint. Thankful no one went down that path which tells me people held back and I hope they never get there. What was and is concerning to me is the push pull between the people and the institutions that have morphed into wanting to control everything. Ground truth and common sense seems to be missing at this point.

 

[neihn]

Getting health insurance was the one aspect of retiring overseas when you are in your 70's or 80's that made me hesitate. I know you can do it, but it's expensive and probably won't cover any pre-exisiting conditions. When I lived in Singapore until the age of 67, I was teaching part-time, and my insurance was about $4000/year, but had a very high deductible and did not cover pre-existing conditions. I know the same is true in Thailand, but even though the healthcare is inexpensive in Thailand, health care costs can mount up. Someone living there now certainly knows more than I do, but I suspect they are in their 50's or 60's, and health insurance is much easier to acquire.

I inquired about the retirement visa in Panama and Portugal, because those countries allow you to get into their respective government healthcare systems after a few years.

Rob

I am afraid that you don't really know how much insurance and health care cost here in the US for people in late 50 > 65.

I paid $800/month for a high deductible ins plan ($6,600 max out of pocket, that means insurance only pays after I pay up to 6.6k).

Few years ago, I stayed in the hospital for 2 nights, got billed 10k per night - No major operation, they only scoped my stomach and looked for ulcer. A doctor woke me up around 2:00am, and asked a few questions - the itemized cost for his visit is $800

I would self insure if I live in Singapore, Thailand or Vietnam.

 

[MichaelB]

<mod note> There have been multiple complaints about some posts. Can we please keep the thread conversations focused on locations and destinations for retirement abroad and not on current events in the US?

 

[truenorth418]

What to do if you are sick of the US and want to retire abroad

For those interested in exploring expatriation there is a company called Nomad Capitalist and their founder Andrew Henderson posts daily videos and podcasts about a wide array of expat issues. Their free content used to be about nomadism but recently the emphasis is more on relocation, taxes, citizenship, etc. Their motto is “Go where you’re treated best”. I think that idea makes a lot sense. Of course, everyone has a different idea of what that looks like. Anyway you may want to check out their online content if you’re really interested in doing this.

Don’t forget the US is different than other countries in that they tax your income no matter where you “live” in the world. Are you willing to renounce your US citizenship to avoid US taxes - and pay the related exit taxes all at once? I ran the numbers on exit taxes for myself - and it would be very expensive for me at this time. So for now I keep limited ties to the US but travel overseas extensively, not spending enough time in any other country to get caught up in their tax systems.

I want to enjoy life for as long as I am healthy and able to do so. I don’t want a lot of complications and drama (and that means avoiding politics, which is not easy to do these days.)

 

[Rob]

My original comments concerned about my returning to the States for retirement after spending 40+ years overseas. I returned at the age of 67, and now almost 74.

I did not want this to get too political, but references to the recent disturbances caused the comments to veer off what was intended.

Getting health care overseas when you are in your 70's and 80's can be prohibitive. I am thankful for the benefits of Medicare at my age. I read with interest about the one gentleman in Thailand in his upper 70's that had heart surgery, and it was relatively inexpensive compared to the US.

I'm going to be more of a snowbird and see where it goes from there. The winters in western Washington can be pretty wet, and in the past I've gone to Lake Chapala and Ensenada in Mexico, Costa Rica, and Tucson. I only stayed a few weeks each time, and I think I'll stay a lot longer next time. El Paso is my next destination as a snowbird, and I'm going to extend that for a few months.

Rob

 

[kevink]

Some excellent perspectives in this thread; thanks to all who've participated as well as the OP.

We spent a cumulative ~5 years living in Mexico as expats, driven largely by health insurance and health care costs pre-Obamacare. Have been back in the U.S. for a couple of years - in part because rents and overcrowding in popular expat havens in Mexico over the past 4 years due to Americans fleeing the U.S. made those places more expensive than many sunny, low-cost locales in the U.S. (and that's a close to "politics" as I intend to get here, heeding the moderator's cautions).

At various times when living down there we had private health insurance, paid into the Mexican system (IMSS/Seguro Popular) and self-insured. As others have mentioned, we mostly just happily paid out-of-pocket for routine and minor emergency care. 40 pesos (about two dollars) to see the Spanish-only speaking doctor attached to almost every pharmacy, up to 300 pesos to see an English-speaking GP or specialist doc in gringo-haven places like Lake Chapala or San Miguel de Allende. I sliced up my hand on a broken dish one day requiring a dozen stitches and that cost me 150 pesos at the local Red Cross (with about a 2 minute wait to see the doctor).

At the worst-case-scenario extreme I know uninsured expats who've had to pay for quadruple-bypass surgery and follow-up or breast cancer treatments including surgery and chemo in top private hospitals without insurance who've had to pay as much as 30-40K out of pocket. A big number for sure but that's what worst-case self-insurance dice rolling looks like.

Private health insurance premiums become prohibitively high after about age 70 down there. Much of the problem is that the pool is so small. Many expats sign up for IMSS and/or Seguro Popular as a catastrophic insurance backup but unless you speak fluent Spanish and/or have a bilingual doctor "on retainer" that's an unrealistic option in most parts of the country. The health care system is just too overburdened and poorly funded (as shown by the country's disastrous response to COVID). Bottom line: if you can't afford to self-insure you don't belong down there long-term.

Many expats do keep their Medicare but there, too, one has to have a place to stay in the U.S., friends or family to help out and an ongoing relationship with a doctor or clinic in order to make emergency care a viable option - along with a plan to deal with emergencies (e.g. an auto accident or heart attack) that would have to be addressed on the spot in Mexico.

Just as an FYI for those who may be interested, long-term care places have been a booming business in all of the popular expat havens in Mexico for years and I expect that trend to continue. At Lake Chapala alone there are at least 10 places where one can pay $1200-1400 a month for room and board with nursing care and physicians on staff, all while enjoying the lake's near-perfect climate. Beats the heck out of paying 4-5 times that price to be in a dreary nursing home. in the U.S., IMHO.

Better health care infrastructure in Costa Rica and Panama from what I hear from friends living in those places and of course those who have the option living in EU countries and either paying into their systems or affordable private insurance are the most fortunate of all, though there again the need for fluency in the local language and successful adaptation and acceptance by the culture are formidable challenges that often aren't fully thought through by prospective expats.

 

[kcowan]

A good friend has parents who have lived in Mexico for 25 years of self-insurance (from Washington State). They self-insure and have been relatively healthy.

But now their kids are worried going forward. And the parents are adamant about staying. They no longer qualify for Mexican government insurance ( application must be before age 70/75). They do go back to,the kids place for three months every summer.

Another couple survived the wife having cancer and total costs were $5000. But they have moved north just in case.

I am self-insuring for 7 months while here because travel insurance was going to be C$25000! The cost of "living".

 

[oiseux]

snip
The Swiss feel that they should be able to conduct some large cash business transactions without the government having access to an electronic record of it.

snip

I'm about 11 years removed from my (corporate) ex-pat days in Switzerland, but I still remember having to go to the Mercedes dealer with the entire down payment in a big pile of cash. It was just crazy!



For the others on health care, in France, for long term residents you become part of the national health care system after 90 days (and must then formally apply). Retirees receiving a public/private pension/SS do not get charged. People then often purchase low cost top-up insurance to cover the gaps. However, to get the visa in the first place does require a health check up.



AARO (Association of Americans Resident Overseas) does offer ex-pat health insurance (but with conditions/approval regarding pre-existing conditions) and the premiums are listed on the website (for planning purposes). There are lower cost programs available; a friend in the Philippines has one of these as well.

 

[FIREarly]

For me, Australia in retirement is a relatively low tax environment, with excellent health care and access to free universal health care. My base in Australia is sub tropical climate so no cold winters etc.

Wow, very good information!

Your input is valuable and makes sense. From one video watched a while ago, Australia also is very safe. The video asked random people about the last gun violence they remember in Australia and most of them could not remember it or it was a LONG time ago. Also, great to hear about them having very good universal health care.

The main "gripe" on retiring in Australia is that it might not be safe to leave. Did you ever see the show Lost? That was all based around a plane leaving Australia for the USA. Well, maybe we'd have to travel the "long way" to the USA, hahaha.

I've read/watched videos on how great Portugal is for retirement (costs/healthcare/location to many other great countries) and did not do much more research due to having multiple years until then.

Pre-step, increase retirement/investment accounts/win lotto (joking about one of them!)

 

[Delawaredave5]

I've traveled all over the world and done a lot of international business working for an international company. Have a lot of friends all over the world.

Don't think I know anyone that is US citizen and permanently moved/retired overseas. Yet dozens, maybe hundreds people I know that came to US for school and stayed, or transferred here with Megacorp and stayed, or are trying to get here.

Everyone needs to come to their own conclusions. Maybe I only know boring people.

Have a couple buddies that did an "international sampler" - subletting an apartment for 2-3 months in different countries.

When travel gets back to normal, I'd like to do a half-dozen of these sublets.

But I can't see moving permanently - especially with kids, grandkids here. If you have to for cost reasons - to retire 10 years earlier than you would in USA - I get that.

 

[Davaldez21]

Hi all-
I received a private message from a contributor to this forum asking whether I had stayed in Singapore or returned the States. As a background, I lived in Singapore for 25 years, but only worked there for 19 years. The rest of the time I kept my residence in Singapore, but experienced Egypt, Jordan and Vietnam, working in those countries, also. In 2013, I decided at the age of 67 to return to the States and retire. I live 1 minute from the Canadian border in a little town in Washington state, which up until the beginning of the pandemic was almost like a part of greater Vancouver. Things will certainly get back to where they were before. Vancouver captures that Singapore vibe.

I guess you could say that my life has been quite the opposite of most retirees here, especially if you retire early. I've spent most of my life overseas, and the novelty of living and retiring in the States is still with me. If you retire at the age of 60, I totally understand your desire to retire overseas, especially if you want to check some things off your bucket list and you're still healthy. However, health care and the feeling of "home" really can only be achieved by being in your own country, but that's only my opinion.

In Singapore, I was a PR (permanent resident), which is similar to a US green card. It allowed me to stay there and live. However, I got my PR through my work (science teacher) rather than through family connections, and so even if you have PR, it's only permanent if you continue to work. The cost of living in Singapore is the highest in the world, and getting health care insurance in your 70's is near impossible.

I actually applied for and got the Malaysian retirement visa (MM2H), and I planned on living in southern Malaysia and travel back and forth to Singapore. What deterred me was the lack of good health insurance and the fact that I was determined to have a dog in retirement, which is a very unpopular idea in Malaysia. Also, the requirement of keeping a deposit of $150,000 in a Malaysian bank was something that did not appeal to me. I decided to give the US a chance for retirement, and so here I am. As a side note about MM2H, for the past year the program has been frozen. It will open soon, but the Malaysian government will up the requirements to keep only "high quality" retirees. Read into that as you will.

Do I have any regrets about being "home"? None! I DO get very annoyed and really frustrated about the awful politics and gridlock, but I also was annoyed at same thing overseas. It's my country after all. Also, I can't think of anything better than Medicare, and that's a feeling of security. Just my opinion.

What I miss, however, is the cultural stimulation I received living overseas for 40 years (other countries, also). I need to travel more, but my Labrador makes it difficult. I am looking into the possibility of living part of the year in a US city that captures the Mexican culture, is very safe, and the cost of living is perhaps the lowest in the US for a big city. That place is El Paso. I want to experience that. Like I said, it's extremely safe there, and being able to walk across the border reminds me of living in Singapore and taking walks across the Causeway to Malaysia. I also am intrigued with Panama, and so that is a place I want to visit.

Just wanted to share with you my thoughts on leaving the US to retire. When I reads the news everyday, I get visibly upset, but I'd still be upset if I were overseas. The US influence is everywhere.

Thanks for allowing me to share

Rob

Why don’t you consider the lower RGV? I live here. Hispanic/ Mexican culture is stronger than El Paso. The area is much nicer and newer especially Hidalgo county (Mission, McAllen, Edinburg metro). It has South Padre Island, good size towns with all the amenities, nice, relaxing rural towns like Bayview. It is very subtropical, usually winters don’t hit freezing. We had our worst winter since the 1980s and hit our citrus crop, temps went into the 20s for a couple of nights but that was a big anomaly. There are tourist towns that are safe right across border like Progreso. There are a lot of ‘winter Texans’ here mostly from the Midwest so you won’t feel ‘alone’. Only downside are scorching summers but El Paso is worse and closer to beach here it gets more tolerable

 

[braumeister]

Don't think I know anyone that is US citizen and permanently moved/retired overseas.

Actually, we have a number of them right here. So now you do.

 

[UKadventurer]

I'm 57 now and just took early retirement. I'm a UK citizen but haven't lived there for 35 years. I spent 22 years in the US until I got sick of it then moved to China, Mongolia and Vietnam with a short stay in the Philippines. We're stuck in Nha Trang, Vietnam right now as covid refugees but we can't stay indefinitely.

The wife and I will probably move to Turkey for cost reasons and it's a cheap and easy residence if you have a bit of money in the bank. The US is not an option (I'm not a citizen and my green card expired) and I can't stand the weather in the UK. I prefer warm countries so the Aegean coast of Turkey looks promising. My sister has lived in Turkey for 16 years and she loves it. I doubt we could afford to buy a house in the UK but we probably can in Turkey and probably will if we like it after a 1 year trial. Another possibility I considered is Portugal but it looks too expensive for property (rentals and buying) because of high demand from foreigners moving there.

I've lived abroad for so long that the concept of "home" is a strange one. I feel at home wherever I live. I don't miss England in the slightest, I feel foreign there, I've only got one major relative left there - most have moved abroad. Having said that, as I age and if my health fails, we might have to move there just to be able to afford the high costs (in other countries) of insurance or cash treatments. I've been self-insured most of my time in Asia. Luckily, I haven't had any serious issues. I can't count on that luck continuing.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

We have been retired for 12 years now in Hungary with no regrets. No plans to ever return to the US. We live very well on our pensions and pay cash for excellent health care which comes to less than the aggregate Part B payments so we don't contribute to Medicare at all. It is required to keep my military medical and we refused it. We saved up a large cash reserve which has not only never been touched but has doubled since retirement. We cannot even spend our pensions so we over-planned for retirement which was a nice surprise. Is Hungary perfect? No, but no country is. No one cares where we come from or what we are doing. There is no property or death taxes and the cost of living is average and now apparently less expensive than in the US by a large margin despite 5 times higher utility costs. Once you adapt it is no big deal. The plus is we are in the exact center of Europe and many places are short (5 hours or less) drives away. I have a yacht on the largest lake in Europe and an e-mountain bike for the vast amounts of forests and parks nearby. So, no complaints at all. Language sucks but slowly they are learning English.

 

[FIREd]

I currently live on the border between France and Switzerland. With the border being wide open (especially for border residents), I get the best of both countries. The cost of living in France is quite low. I know that France has a bad reputation for high taxes but i think that it’s overblown. Even with a 20% VAT, prices are still way lower than in the US or Switzerland.

 

[brett]

We spent our first seven months of retirement travelling internationally.

Since then it has been two trips per year, 8-10 weeks each to various overseas locations. Would we move from Canada for a few years. I would, DW no. SO this is our compromise.

During our winters head to warm places on our bucket list. It has been five winters in Thailand/Vietnam/Malaysia, two in Central and South America, one in the US, and the last one in Mexico. In the spring or the fall our preference is for Southern Europe. At the top of our current list is Morocco in spring or fall and winter in Africa.

We have a SIL who has lived and worked all over the world since leaving Canada. Europe, Russia, SE Asia. BIL the same. They decided on Valencia as a retirement location a few years ago and love it. They have integrated...speak Spanish fluently etc. They still keep ties to Canada via an investment property.

No matter where we travel or for how long it is always good to come home. For many reasons. Despite our politics, it makes us very appreciative of where we live and what our life is like. I sometimes think that those who have not had the opportunity to travel to other parts of the world do not truly understand what we have and how fortunate we are.

 

[Rob]

I really enjoy reading the comments of those of you now living overseas, whether it be in Hungary,France, Mexico, or Thailand. It does seem to be the trend that you did this after you retired in the States, or Canada.

I don't see any participants here that spent their whole adult life overseas and then returned to the States when they are in their upper 60's. That sort of describes me. I guess my time since 2013, when I returned here, is still kind of new to me. I'll always look at the US as a place I really don't quite understand, because I have all these other experiences in my mind.

As mentioned, I live on the border with Canada. I can literally walk there if the border were open now. That convenience allows me to mix with an international population in Vancouver. Before the border closed, I regularly took takeout dinners from one of the best Korean restaurants in greater Vancouver. From my house to the restaurant and back was about 30 minutes. That simple activity satisfied my desire to live an international lifestyle. However, the last 14 months have been terrible for obvious reasons.

My desire to live overseas now in my mid-70's is still there, but it's a risky thing to do. You tend to be more cautious when you are in your 70's or 80's. Also, I was so removed from my siblings all these years, that the ability to be in the US and see them whenever I want is something I treasure more as a senior citizen. There is no question that if I had retired much earlier, I would have gone the overseas retirement route.

I still might retire overseas, but the only time I have ever had a dog is now. The idea of flying with him in cargo just makes me quite anxious. For the time being, I'll continue to enjoy being in the US and make escapes to places like El Paso and Vancouver to expose myself to other cultures within the US. I will also continue my 7th year of voting, which after not voting in the US for 35-40 years is a real change for me.

It is nice to get these thoughts out like this. Thank you.

Rob