Need some advices - move to Asia

[Gates007ca]

Hello all,

I have been reading this forum for a while and must admit I have been shy to post any comments and replies of my own. However, I have always been impressed and benefit from the wisdom of many posters of this forum.

The reason I am posting this time is that I have come to a delimma in life that can definitely benefit from your collective advices and wisdom.

First of all, a little bit about myself. I am Canadian, mid-30s and dream of ER ever since I started working many moons ago. Career wise, I have progressed over the years to managerial level in an international accounting firm but does not see my career will significantly further ahead in the immediate future. In terms of skillset, I have a graduate degree in management and a CPA. I have been working on financial consulting assignments for large corporations in Canada and USA. I am of Asian descent and my native language is Cantonese but have been in Canada for over 20 years. Suffice to say I am fairly "Canadianize/Americanize"... All my immediate family members are in Asia, however, and I am still single, with no mortgage and kids. I have saved up closed to 100k in RRSP (retirement fund) and have about 70k in non-retirement fund. Both of them are roughly 80% stocks and 20% Bonds/money market. As you can see these are important background information to consider my delimma...

I have recently came back from a vacation in Hong Kong (where my parents live). My dad is in his 70s and his health is deteriorating. My mom is a little healthier. I have always been somewhat relectent to move back to Asia because I found the lifestyle to be too hectic and I always have a decent job in Canada. I see moving back is a big risk and I am not a risk taker and not very big on changes... I usually see a million of reasons NOT to go (too crowded, too much risk to find a new job, will be too busy....etc.) However, this time, seeing my dad's health is deteriorating has really changed my mind somewhat. Besides, the economy appears to be improving and there seems to be a lot of opportunities in China as many have suggested to me (although I do not speak Mandarin).

My delimma is the following:

If I stay in Canada and given the level of income I have, I can retire in 20 years to a reasonable (but not luxurious) lifestyle. My job is pretty stable and I consider myself to be relatively marketable in Canada with my academic and work experience. However, if I stay, I felt I am not doing enough for my parents, ie. to be closer to them when they need me. (In Canada, from a ER perspective, I would see it as average return and low risk)

If I move to Asia, a lot of people have told me there are big opportunities in the next few years and I may be able to capitalize them (possible 2x to 3x of my current salaries) and be able to retire more quickly (i.e. in 10 years). The risks are significantly higher (i.e. nothing may pan out and I may have to delay my ER plan i.e. to 25 years). I would categorize this as high return and high risks. However, on a human factor, I will be able to spend more time with my family and be a good son.

Given that I am not a risk taker, I am not overly incline to move to Asia but my heart appears to be telling me otherwise (logic vs. emotion). I am starting to rationalize that going to Asia may not be that risky given my work experience in Canada is somewhat in demand in Asia as well and I can always bunk up with my folks (for a short time) while I start up there.

The other option is to ask for an international transfer within my current firm. However, I have just recently joined this company so any move will not be likely immediate, if it happens at all.

What are your thoughts? Your comments are much appreciated.

Gates.

 

[Hyperborea]

You've got two issues wrapped up together here and you need to think about them separately.  Don't live your life to retire early.  Do you want to go back to Hong Kong and be with your parents?  If so, then figure out how to make it work financially.

If you don't feel the need to go back and be with your parents do you want to go back for possible "big opportunities"?  You're still young enough and with apparently no major attachments so that you could make the move if you wanted to.

 

[Gates007ca]

I guess like most of the posters here, I want to retire early so that I can do what I truly enjoy (or I think I enjoy). For me, this is travelling, dancing and reading. I am doing some of them now but not nearly the amount I'd like to. So the immediate goal in life for me is to retire early.

Hyperborea: Can you elaborate on "Don't live your life to retire early."? Sometimes I really feel I am living my life solely to retire early, which may or may not be healthy. (i.e. I spend below my means, I save a lot, etc.) Your comments are appreciated.

As to wrapping 2 issues together... you are right, although I don't think I can get mind to think of them independently, largely they both impact my decision to move back. For example, Spend move time with parents but less opportunities (and possibly lengthen my ER time horizon) = less inclination to move back and vice versa.

I guess I need some of your collective thoughts on the following:

1. Given everything you read / know about the current economic trends, do you think moving to Asia (and then look for a job once I am there) constitute a big risks to retiring early?

2. I think some of the posters are more seasoned, more experienced and older, so when you think back with your relationship with your parents, do you regret not been able to spend more time with them? Where I am coming from is that I like some hindsight from someone who may have a similar situation and can give me some guidance if they were in my shoes.

3. I guess some tactical advices on the following
a. How I can mitigate my percieved risks to move to asia
b. What are some of the factors you would consider in this kind of decisions
c. What are some of the steps I should start to effect the move, if such decision is made?

Again, your kind advices are appreciated.

Gates.

 

[Gates007ca]

Jarhead - thanks for your kind words and very much appreciated. I do have a sister in Asia and she is married with 1 daugther. She is also expecting a baby boy in May. My sister lives fairly close to my parents. My sister is a good kid (much more so than I am and is already spending a lot of time with my parents). Fortunately too my brother-in-law is also very accomodating and he enjoys very good relationship with my parents.

I have been very fortunate in my life (and very much appreciative as well) that my parents are financially independent and do not require my support financially. Although I send money to them on a regular basis, the amount is more of a token of gesture than anything substantial. I think spending more time with them seems to be more meaningful than providing them with financial support. Although I am sure my parents will be happy if I send more money to them, but I do not think this can equate to spending more time with them.

I guess I am just hung up on the risks of moving to Asia (For example:

what if I do get a job for an extended period of time,

what if I get a job but substantially lower than what I get paid in Canada and

what if I am not further ahead in 5 or 10 years career wise in Asia and should have stay in Canada because it is lower risk

What if I have to delay ER for another 5 to 10 years if things did not work out in Asia and I spend more being miserable in Asia when I can play it save in Canada)

But there are a lot of other What Ifs on the other side of the balance...

(For example,

What if my dad's health continue to deteriorate (he had a angioplasty this summer and also 2 years ago)

What if I stay in Canada and stuck in a mid-level management job and is not fully utilizing my potential (in Asia, there is still a demand for foreign-educated management-level personnel so I think there is still opportunities to move up in Asia, but again this is all conjectures and only based on what my friends at similar level are telling me... no guarantee until rubber meets the road, so to speak)

You see, I have a lot of "What ifs..." that paralyzing me from taking action.

Your comment are valuable and your kind words are appreciated.

Gates.

 

[Bill J.]

I have faced a similar situation with my parents, Gates. My father passed away a few years ago, and my mother now lives alone, in her 80s, and is in declining health. She and I are both in the same country at least (USA), but she is on the other side of the country from me. I have hired people to come in to help her at home, and I visit her frequently to take care of things.

What to do? I have considered taking ER earlier than planned just to make my life simpler and to be able to spend more time with her. But ER is a "final answer" in my situation and not easily reversed.

Also have considered bringing her here to my area. My friends and relatives all suggest that I bring her here, but my mom doesn't want to move yet.

So--have you considered bringing your parents to Canada so you can take care of them? I believe traditionally elderly parents have adapted to the life of their working children--at least that's the way it has worked in my culture.

And I also believe that the reality is that you will have a much better life in Canada. I have to say that to you in all honesty, Gates.

All the best in whatever you decide to do.

 

[Jarhead*]

I guess like most of the posters here, I want to retire early so that I can do what I truly enjoy (or I think I enjoy).  For me, this is travelling, dancing and reading.  I am doing some of them now but not nearly the amount I'd like to.  So the immediate goal in life for me is to retire early.  

Hyperborea: Can you elaborate on "Don't live your life to retire early."?  Sometimes I really feel I am living my life solely to retire early, which may or may not be healthy.  (i.e. I spend below my means, I save a lot, etc.)  Your comments are appreciated.

As to wrapping 2 issues together... you are right, although I don't think I can get mind to think of them independently, largely they both impact my decision to move back.  For example, Spend move time with parents but less opportunities (and possibly lengthen my ER time horizon) = less inclination to move back and vice versa.
Wow, I guess there's no fool like an old fool.
Your original post sounded like your main concern was your parents well-being .
Your answer to Hyperborea indicates that you want nothing to stand in your way to "early retirement".
Please disregard my original post, and do your best to "grow-up.
Retiring early is usually the end result of a life spent in accomplishment and dedication, it is not intended to be
an obsession. (Or at least it shouldn't be).
Hyperborea's post was very appropriate.

 

[Gates007ca]

Actually my parents had stayed in Canada for 10 years and they find it too cold to bear. The extreme cold had my dad in arthritic pain for many years and they do not consider returning to Canada (even they consider Canada has a better healthcare system than Asia). Also they'd like to be closer to the grand daugther which I can totally understand. Given my sister expecting a second child, I suspect she will unlikely to be able to spend more time with my parents going forward and I think it gives some impetus for me to return so that someone is spending more time with them. Irrespective of that, I think my parents think I should return for my own good and I know deep down they'd like to spend more time with me regardless of other factors.

You are right, Bill, I think my life seems to be better off in Canada but I get a nagging feeling that it might be a bit selfish on my end given I know my parents have selflessly sacrifice a lot of things they want for my sister. I think if I return to Asia then the first couple of years will be HUGE adjustments for me and I think standard of living will not be good comparatively at least in the first 2 years. Afterwards I think it may be comparable to Canada after 2 years. When I return this time, the living standard seems to be okay, ie. better than what I have expected, except transportation. Everyone here drives, where as in Asia having a car is a luxury. Alot of the times I equate driving to freedom because you can go whereever you want but in Asia that is not the case... I feel a sense of lost freedom not having been able to drive (and unlike to be able to afford a car if I return).

Gates.

 

[Gates007ca]

Jarhead,

I think you may have misread me, I think before I notice my dad's declining health, I am fairly focus on ER... after this trip, I am having second thoughts about that and do want to spend more time with them... however, given that ER is still a goal I'd like to achieve, I would still like some advices to mitigate the risks (with respect to ER) if I were to move back...

I think life is full of unexpected and we should be flexible to our approaches. ER is not THE ultimate goal in my life but an intermediate check point so I would still like to achieve it. Given the unexpected event, I am seeking comments/advices on how to alter my approach and still be able to (on a relative basis) achieve this check point...

Do you think this is immature way of looking at things?

Gates

 

[BigMoneyJim]

As far as parent/family, I'm going through a similar dilemma, although I'm only 900 miles away and can visit monthly or more. I'm 34 and single with no anchors save the job, and sometimes I think I should spend more time with/around family. My mom nearly begs me to go on vacations with her, and my last living grandparent isn't getting any younger. I start thinking "well, it's not like I have other responsibilities" then I realize I *do* have a life of my own, and it's important, too. Living your life just for others is not living your life. So there's a balance there somewhere, and I'm struggling to find it. It's not something for which anyone else can tell me the right answer. I'm not sure there is a right answer. Visiting more frequently seems to be working well for me so far, but for me it's just 4 or 5 hours door-to-door by air; you can't exactly take a weekend trip to Asia.

I also identify with the 'living for ER' dilemma. My first goal, to get out of debt completely, is recently accomplished, but as the goal approached I realize there's a lot of living to do between being financially stable and retiring, and that should be enjoyed, too. Again there's a balance between saving for the future and living life. Frugal is a good thing but can be overdone.

If you have no or negligible debt then that along with your stated financial position, experience and skillset is a great place to be...it may be that you can make no wrong decisions here. Your ER dreams aren't shattered if you do badly incomewise over a year or two, and you have the financial base and mobility to adapt to anything headed your way. It's just a lifestyle decision now.

EDIT: Crossposted with Gates, but I think everything I said stands.

 

[Hyperborea]

Hyperborea: Can you elaborate on "Don't live your life to retire early."?  Sometimes I really feel I am living my life solely to retire early, which may or may not be healthy.  (i.e. I spend below my means, I save a lot, etc.)  Your comments are appreciated.

There's a line between planning for and working towards early retirement/financial independence and obsessing over it.  I fell over the line for a year or two.  It was a reaction to a bad work situation and it possibly made it even worse.  You can't let FIRE take over your life.

It's not something that's said a whole lot either here or on the other ER forums but really early FIRE (30's or 40's) is something that few can even hope of achieving.  You need to have started early, made some good financial decisions (often against the "wisdom" of the financial industry), be in a job or career that brings in a large amount of income, and despite what anyone says at least a little bit of luck (or at least the absence of bad luck).  If you get a later start or make some mis-steps then you'll take longer or require an even higher income to make up for it.

It's also required that despite the (very) high income that you are willing to live at a level below that income.  If you want very early FIRE then well below that income.  That reduces the pool of those who can reach very early retirement even more.

Why am I stating this?  Because for most people if they can even get to ER it will more likely be in their 50's.  Do you want to spend the next 20 years living a life of poverty and denial trying to shave another year off the time you have to work?  Now, I'm not saying that you should blow your money on mindless consumer junk (besides, I find that getting rid of attachment to the objects is very liberating in a buddhist sort of way) but if there is something that you want to do in life then do it.

I pay for private guitar lessons because I want to become a better guitar player.  Sure, I could save that money and cut my time to retirement but will I be happy?  Do I want to buy a $10K vintage 50's Stratocaster?  Sure, but it won't make my playing any better and it won't really bring me "happiness" in relation to it's cost.

I want to travel and see more of the world in retirement but I can't leave it until then - I might not make it or I might not be able to.  My wife and I try and make long trips on an every other year basis.  Do we stay in pricy chain hotels when we travel?  No, it costs a lot more than staying in local places and in fact makes the trip less enjoyable.  I can see the inside of a chain hotel without flying halfway around the world.

If there's something that you want to do (i.e. live near your parents) and it will really make you happy/fulfilled then do it.  You will need to figure out how to make it work financially but it can be done.  Somebody said (though I don't know who it was), "You can have anything you want in life but you can't have everything that you want."

As to wrapping 2 issues together... you are right, although I don't think I can get mind to think of them independently, largely they both impact my decision to move back.  For example, Spend move time with parents but less opportunities (and possibly lengthen my ER time horizon) = less inclination to move back and vice versa.

Don't live your life for ER.  Do what you will with your life and then figure if you can ER from there and how.

2.  I think some of the posters are more seasoned, more experienced and older, so when you think back with your relationship with your parents, do you regret not been able to spend more time with them?  Where I am coming from is that I like some hindsight from someone who may have a similar situation and can give me some guidance if they were in my shoes.

I moved to Silicon Valley from Canada to work on what at the time was a rather interesting and challenging project.  I learned a lot and had a pretty good time doing it.  Of course, I live 3 time zones away from my parents and siblings.  We visit on alternate years (the other year we visit my wife's family which is 7 time zones the other way), we call weekly, we email, and we do internet video chat.  It's not the same as being there but I followed something that I wanted to do.  Sure I would like to see them more often but would I now be regretting that I didn't follow my career?  I don't know if it's genetic or not but it's what my parents did themselves when they went to Canada from Scotland.

 

[yakers]

It sounds like you have a lot of good choices. With good academic and professional qualifications and nothing holding you in your current position I would suggest going over to Hong Kong and maybe Taiwan, Singapore, Viet Nam and other countries. You are a qualified bilingual accountant, doesn't get much better. If you can get another income stream going to add to your eventual Canadian retirement that should be a good diversification. And you may find an opportunity you would miss staying in your current location. One advantage of being financially independent and having some money saved up is that you can take advantage of opportunities when they arise. So I would suggest interviewing with companies looking for both a good income and interesting work. Being closer to your family is a real plus as well. That may convince a company to hire you if they might be concerned that you would leave too quickly for being single with no attachments. And if you return to Canada you will have additional experience that should be very marketable.

 

[dx]

Gates,

Since I am a Chinese American who grew up in China,
I can totally relate to your desires to be a "good
son" and being around your parents.

Someone with your background should be very
employable to the multi-national firms doing business
in or around China. You don't have to stick to
Hong Kong. Sheng-Zhen has a lot of opportunites and
it's just a short distance away. I have no doubt you'll
easily find a good paying job there by local standards.
However, it will be more difficult to earn American/Canadian
wages though. It can be done,
but fewer opportunities.

If you're determined to go back to Hong Kong, you can
always approach your existing firm about getting
a transfer. They may not help you, but at least you've
exhausted that option and free to explore other leads.

What's your particular field if I may ask?

A lot of people I know who moved back are happy there.
The qualify of life gap is shrinking very rapidly, especially
for people with good jobs there.

All the best,

dx

 

[KB]

Maybe you should take a short leave of absense from your job, go back home and take a look at the situation first hand. Check out the job market and see if you can find something that meets your criteria. At the same time you can see exactly how your parents are doing.

That might help you decide what you should do with the next phase of your life.

 

[Gates007ca]

Thanks for all for your valuable advices

Jim,  thanks for being able to identify with me and congrats on your goal accomplished.  I share many of your sentiments.  I want to be able to spend more time with my folks and be a good son but also recognize I have my own needs and wants as to what I'd like to get out of my own life.  Since flying them over to Canada will unlikely make them happy, I see the only option is for me to move back.  Your are right, being frugal is good and should not be overdone.  I am only spending on necessary but occasionally spend on things that increase my "happiness index".  I pay off my credit card every month and have virtually no consumer debt (aside from the car loan).  I guess I know I will "take a hit" in lifestyle (which I am prepared to do) but still want to somewhat mitigate risks that may impede my ER goal.
Seems like you agree I should take the risks and move back.

Hyperborea, thanks for the advice.  

>>Don't live your life for ER.  Do what you will with your life and then figure if you can ER from there and how. <<  

May be I should also look at life this way.  However, it seems like you are suggesting ER is more a reactionary goal and should not be place as a first priority.  Am I reading it right?  I'd like to be more proactive about it and place it in a higher priority but I guess you're suggesting "do what you need to do and figure out the rest", right?  I guess having been trained as a scientist before becoming a accountant/consultant, I'd like to plan before taking action and that's why I am struggling.  I guess you can call it "paralysis by analysis".

Yakers, thanks for your support and I like your website!  Thanks for being positives and some good advices on positioning.

DX, thanks for your advices and sharing my sentiment.  I think you know exactly what I am talking about.  We are raise this way and culturally that is a strong "draw" to ensure parents are ok when they get old.  Being in Canada (pretty much by myself for over 10 years) led me to develop a very strong sense of individuality and hence I (may be selfishly) also have a strong view on how to live my life.  Moving back, and worrying about all the "what-ifs" in my previous post, causes a lot of mentally struggling.  Having been a very logical and analytical person for the longest time does not help.  As to my field, I am trained as an accountant (CA and CPA) and also have an MBA and CFA.  I was trained as a scientist (a biochemist) so in past I worked on M&A deals for biotech companies.  I am currently a management consultant on corporate goverance/compliance and my clients are banks and large multinationals.  I have diverse (some would say "scattered") experience in corporate finance, accounting and management consulting.  Well enough about me, do you have some of your friends' experience to share?  I really like to know how the move went for them and whether they have any regrets or things they might have done differently.  Your adivces are sound and much appreciated.

KB, thanks for your advice.  I don't think is a bad idea but I just joined this company less than a year ago and I am a little hesitate to ask for a LOA at this point.  This past vacation to HK worked almost like a LOA (but not quite) and hence is giving me some thoughts as to whether I should move back.

I'd like to thank you for everyone's advice.  Even those who may have stronger words for me as it provided me with some thoughts and perspective.  Thank you for taking the time to put your thoughts down to give me 2 cents on my delimma.  Thank you.

Gates

 

[Hyperborea]

>>Don't live your life for ER.  Do what you will with your life and then figure if you can ER from there and how. <<  

May be I should also look at life this way.  However, it seems like you are suggesting ER is more a reactionary goal and should not be place as a first priority.  Am I reading it right?  I'd like to be more proactive about it and place it in a higher priority but I guess you're suggesting "do what you need to do and figure out the rest", right?  I guess having been trained as a scientist before becoming a accountant/consultant, I'd like to plan before taking action and that's why I am struggling.  I guess you can call it "paralysis by analysis".

It's all about your reasons for being.  Why do you want to retire early?  Is it solely to just stop working?  Or are there things that you would like to do?  If so then why aren't you doing some of them now?

Do you really want to shut off all interests and non-essentials to have a bare minimal existence so that you can stop working early?  If you survive to get there what do you plan to do once you get there?  Are you going to be able to change your habits once you do?  A lot of our parents and grandparents generation got to retirement (regular retirement) and found that they had nothing else in their life but work.

I think that it really comes down to what do you want to do with your life?  There are a lot of different responses to this kind of question and just about all of them valid for different people.  It can be that what you are doing for work is what you want to do with your life.  If you find this answer fits you then great.  It fit me at least to a degree for a while but it has become less of an answer over time - the work isn't as interesting anymore because it's become repetitive.  For some people the answer is that work is something they do to pay the bills but their real passion is something else.  I once dated a woman who wrote technical documents to pay the bills but really lived her life through the theatre (play writing and as an artistic director of a theatre company).  Some people work only to support themselves and their family and have no outside life either through necessity or worse because they ignore it.

Personally, I believe that we all get to go around once, get dizzy, fall down, and then it's all over.  We don't know when it will happen so you've got to get some of that living done now.  Even if you do believe in an after-life or reincarnation or whatever how do you know if you're going to get to do the same kind of things there?  Nobody has come back and said, "Hey Hyperborea, we've got this great jazz band waiting for a guitarist in the afterlife and there are great lessons too so don't bother worrying about it now".

So, I guess that yes I am saying that ER shouldn't be the first priority in your life.  Find something that you want to do, that brings you happiness whether that is your work or something outside your work or even just being with your family and then go from there to figuring out how to FIRE.

 

[BigMoneyJim]

Nobody has come back and said, "Hey Hyperborea, we've got this great jazz band waiting for a guitarist in the afterlife and there are great lessons too so don't bother worrying about it now".

That reminds me of the two best friends who loved baseball and pondered whether there is baseball in heaven. They made a pact that whoever died first would come back if at all possible to tell the other if there was baseball.

Well, one finally died, and true to his pact he came back to visit the other: "I have good news and bad news. The good news is there's baseball in heaven. The bad news is you're pitching tomorrow."

 

[Jane]

Gates,

What a dilemma. Everyone who grows up in Asian (ex. chinese) family *knows* that family should forever be your #1 concern and that not being dedicated enough to your parents/elders will be the biggest guilt producer in your life, whether you are OBC (Overseas Born Chinese) or 100% Chinese-born-and-raised Chinese .

I don't mean it in a bad way. This strong family tie is our strength and our weakness simultaneously (I am Canadian chinese btw. Born and raised in Canada).

I guess I am a little luckier than you in a sense that my parents are here in Canada so I may not fully understand your struggle. But long ago I have realized (like someone else said already) that I should live my life that makes me the happiest. Although our parents definitely deserve our respect and devotion, I suspect they would be the happiest parents in the world if their children are happy. I don't know how your parents will feel if you move back to Asia for their sake and be unhappy.

So what I am saying is: guilt (of not being good enough son) aside, what truly makes you happy? Living in Canada? Let's say your father is as healthy as a horse, would you move back to Asia?

Moving back to Asia can proved to be very beneficial to RE since they are in need of foreign-trained professionals. My coworker lived in Asia for 5 years before moving back to Canada and he raked in much more money in Asia than in Canada, but in the end he felt he would be much happier in Canada.

So money aside, parents aside, where would you rather be?

Sorry if I sound a little cold-hearted. I didn't mean too. Like I said, I guess I am lucky that my parents live 20 min drive away from me.

All the best.

Jane