Stories from working in government

[ats5g]

Having attended both a public and private college, I was treated more or less the same at both places, and I experienced a similar amount of ineptitude and pleasantness at both places. Of course, this is just anecdotal evidence, and others' experiences are probably different.

Perhaps a problem [with both public and private sector people] is that there is a lack of incentive for good customer service [or whatever], and probably a lack of measurement to create an incentive. For example, if I get raises, promotions, etc., based on some measure [like how many files I process on time], if push comes to shove, you can bet your sweet a** that those other parts of the job that aren't measured [like answering phones] are going to suffer.

Or perhaps I know that if I do a really, really good job and I get my work done early or are very efficient, I'll get more work without proper compensation [I know it's a strech eh 8)]. Again, no incentives to be efficient. So, is it a problem with the people that work at that place, or a problem with the place at which people work?

- Alec

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I hnow a few people working for the local government. A friend of mine works for the DA office. He says that the attorneys get to work at 9am, read the newspaper for 2 hours, work out for an hour, spend another hour for lunch, work for 2 hours and then go home.

Here is a typical day for a civil engineer (in traffic management) for the LA county: arrive work at 8:30a, chat with fellow engineers for a couple of hours, go out to observe the traffic to determine additional meters or traffic lights are needed for a couple of hours and go home.

So, what do I think about government jobs? I think they are great - low stress, job security and great benefits. 

You forgot "boring". If your brain doesn't work anyway, then it sounds like a good career choice.

JG

 

[Martha]

Yes, the Dunbar life ala Catch-22. Keep it boring so it seems even longer.

 

[haha]

And Ha will get a nice thank-you note from Emma-Jean Gonzales in the Mission, Texas post office for personally paying her salary this year.    Then Ha can evaluate her performance and personally fire her if he feels he's not getting his money's worth. 

Congratulations Wab!  You have certainly succeeded in making my post look silly.

Ha

 

[maddythebeagle]

Hmm, what we have here is a case of conflicting viewpoints.    I think I know how we can fix it.    When we pay taxes, the government can tell us exactly how they'll spend our money.   Maybe they can have an "adopt a government worker" program.    And Ha will get a nice thank-you note from Emma-Jean Gonzales in the Mission, Texas post office for personally paying her salary this year.    Then Ha can evaluate her performance and personally fire her if he feels he's not getting his money's worth.    Let's give tax payers some real responsibility --  each one of us will become the hiring manager for our own personal government employee!

All we need is Sally Struthers. For the cost of a cup of coffee......

So, what do I think about government jobs? I think they are great - low stress, job security and great benefits.

I think the point is that job security is not the selling point that it used to be with so many cuts. Low stress sounds like a euphemism for "not doing anything important". It seems that most workers would want some kind of challenge.

- also, martha, do you want anybody that is a jerk to be fired?

 

[Andre1969]

I'm a gov't contractor, and we support a lot of high-level gov't people, and from what I've seen, it's almost impossible for a gov't person to get fired. And in many ways, that seems to trickle down to us contractors. In my 13 years of service, I can't recall a single gov't employee who was fired, and only one contractor who was flat-out fired.

And here's what it took for her to get fired. Her hours were 8:30-5, with a 30 minute lunch break (you could take longer, but would have to make up the time). Well, it was a miracle if you saw her before 9. She'd usually take a 2-hour lunch. And when our supervisor left at 4, she's look out the window and watch him leave, and be gone a few minutes later. That wasn't what got her canned, though.

She had a habit of trying to play the race card, and would cry discrimination at the drop of a hat. At one point, she tried to pin a bunch of crap on our supervisor, and actually tried to take us all down with false allegations of discrimination. Well, they offered her a new position, back at the headquarters building. Turns out it was so they could actually keep closer tabs on her. After about 2 weeks, they canned her. Right after she came back from one of her two hour lunches, they told her to pack her things and leave.

Then there was the one who was running her own desktop publishing company on gov't equipment. Whenever real work came up, she'd scramble at the last minute and we'd all have to pitch in and help her get her assignments done, because her personal work took so much of her time. Well, she ended up getting carpal tunnel syndrome, went out on permanent disability, and tried to sue the company. The company ended up printing every single document they could find off her hard drive, disks, etc, and when it went to court they determined she spent 90% of her time doing personal work and 10% doing her job. So in the end, her personal work gave her the carpal tunnel. Case dismissed, and in a rare instance of common sense, true justice was served!

Now a couple years ago, our company lost the contract and the new one picked up everybody except two people. One of them was this disabled man in his 50's who was maybe 5-2 and an easy 300 pounds. Very sexist, too. He'd actually brag about how much more he made than the women he worked with who did the same job. Turns out he bragged too much, I guess, and the new company decided he was too much dead weight. So he wasn't fired so much as laid off.

There's also a desk up in that same area where they tend to stick people who are between positions. When a position gets eliminated, or even if someone gets transferred for doing a bad job, our company tries hard not to fire them. They'll stick them up at this desk as a last resort, and let them scan documents and other busy work type of tasks. There was a woman up there that, now that I think about it, called out alot and took a lot of sick leave. Or just leave without pay. She didn't get picked up either when we switched companies.

 

[Dogcliff]

And now...back to our topic...

...do you feel that you went down the wrong career path?...Do you think there is as much stability as you thought there would be when you started your career? Has the polarized political scene (on the state and federal levels) caused disruption?


During my 27 years affiliated with both state and Fed careers as an aircraft mechanic/Systems Analyst, I am pleased to have emerged in good shape near the end of this part of my life.  You don't have to be a current history buff in order to know the current state of employment stability in the airline industry.  Even as a second tier fed retiree (FERS vs CSRS) gonna' be, FIRE will be mine in about three years.  

The only disruption due to the scene for me would be being a Blue State employee in a Red State Agency (ANG).

dc

 

[yAyA]

Hi YaYa,
Do you work in the public or private sector.  It seems to me that your description of your work environment applies pretty equally to both.

I guess that goes for most of the comments in this thread.  The government does not have a corner on the market for lazy and incompetent bureaucrats.  Large companies are very competitive in this area.  And unreasonable customers who threaten to get you fired are pervasive.  I don't think they care much who the employer is. 
 

I work in the public sector and I have to agree that my description can apply to both. However, I 'm sure many of my co-workers would be fired in the private sector. The things people do and complain about is just crazy. I actually know a co-worker who complained about not getting a job that he didn't even apply for Being around peeps with that type of attitude everyday is tired and one of the many reasons I plan on leaving

 

[tozz]

Well, since the bloviators are either breathless or (finally) popped their aneurisms, I will try to address some of your original questions.

Since this is an early retirement forum, I will start with your unasked question:  Yes, the pensions are good.  I was able to put in my retirement papers at age 47 (with some maneuvering) and will receive a comfortable federal pension by today's standards.

Further upside:  although it was time to move on, I enjoyed my career.  I was able to work on interesting high visibility projects that simply are not performed by the private sector.  Most positions are relatively stable.  Those that are not stable, almost by definition, have corresponding jobs in the private sector.  Newer federal employees are covered by a retirement plan that is quite portable--FERS--so they are not locked into their jobs to the same extent that I was.  Nowadays you can try it for a while, and if it's not your thing, move on.  It is fairly easy to move about within the federal government.  I worked a variety of positions--pawing through people's dirty underwear, tacking up fallout shelter signs, working as a caseworker--before I finally settled down into the position best suited to my talents: feet up on the desk, making paper dolls, all the time consumed with wistful dreams of early retirement.

The polarized political scene filters down in mixed ways.  I have friends within the EPA that are currently extremely discouraged.  They still have their jobs, though.  Anecdotally, I used to read reports of lack of morale within the DOD during the Carter administration.  Everything is cyclic.  Unless you have designs on the Senior Executive Service, you should be somewhat insulated from the politics. 

The downside is that you occasionally have to deal with large red-faced individuals three inches from your face who bellow, "BUT I PAY YOUR SALARY."  Usually, I could just put myself into a meditative place while I contemplated their throbbing forehead vein.  And if that didn't work?  Just torture them further.

I know that a few of you do. What is going on and do you feel that you went down the wrong career path?  Do you think there is as much stability as you thought there would be when you started your career? Has the polarized political scene (on the state and federal levels) caused disruption?

 

[SaveSome]

A survey of 10,000 workers revealed that wasting time in the workplace is hardly limited to government employees. http://accounting.smartpros.com/x48929.xml

According to the survey, the average worker in the survey admitted to wasting 2.09 hours per day, versus 2.4 for the average surveyed government worker. That's a difference of 18.6 minutes, or an additional 3.8 percent of an 8 hour day.

There were also regional differences.

 

[Martha]

- also, martha, do you want anybody that is a jerk to be fired?

Only the ones I have to deal with.

I was tempted to give more of the story and be specific as to this guys jerkiness, but I did not want to run the risk that someone might figure out who he is and who he works for. But trust me, everyone who deals with him wants him canned.

 

[grumpy]

I think some of you who have been bashing public employees as lazy, incompetent, etc. are generalizing too much. Isn't it possible that the public employees who work hard and do their jobs competently just don't get noticed by the public? They may represent the vast majority of public employees. They try to do the best job they can within the constraints imposed by the structure of public agencies. I will grant you that all of my experience was in scientific and engineering federal agencies where the workforce was quite highly motivated. The "service" agencies with much more public contact have a higher chance of pissing off a tax payer and so get most of the bad rap.

Grumpy

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Only the ones I have to deal with. 

I was tempted to give more of the story and be specific as to this guys jerkiness, but I did not want to run the risk that someone might figure out who he is and who he works for.  But trust me, everyone who deals with him wants him canned.   

Hi Martha!  You reminded me of my story about the time I took over running a small aerospace company.  They had a V.P. who everyone
wanted canned.  I thought I could salvage him (my ego again)
and kept him on for months while he made everyone miserable.
Finally dumped his sorry ass.  I should have listened to the folks
who had been working there for years.

JG

 

[grumpy]

Hi Martha! You reminded me of my story about the time I took over running a small aerospace company. They had a V.P. who everyone
wanted canned. I thought I could salvage him (my ego again)
and kept him on for months while he made everyone miserable.
Finally dumped his sorry ass. I should have listened to the folks
who had been working there for years.

JG

Welcome back JG! Rumors of your demise were greatly exagerated.

Grumpy

 

[SteveR]

Most of my experience with Fed. gov. workers has been limited to regulatory agencies. I am sure this give me a distorted view of things so I will keep those horror stories to myself. 8)

I have a close friend that works for the local county government. She was recently forced out of her department into ER; she was not ready and was not prepared for the cut in pension she will not suffer. She was 63. It amazes me that they can get away with this. She has been working in that same department for well over 20 years and many newer (younger) folks have been hired in the past few years. She and her husband are not well off at all. He had to take ER 15 years ago due to reductions in force and he had moved around a lot and did not have much in the way of a pension. He got creamed in the tech. tail spin in 2000 so his income is restricted. They were counting on a full County pension; now that is also reduced.

The bottom line would seem to be, that private industry and the gov. can both screw you so you better get your ducks in a row as soon as you can because there are no "sure things" anymore.

 

[HFWR]

I should have listened to the folks who had been working there for years.

JG

One of my major gripes about management...

 

[grumpy]

He got creamed in the tech. tail spin in 2000 so his income is restricted.

If you take the risks you have to accept the results.

Grumpy

 

[TargaDave]

I think some of you who have been bashing public employees as lazy, incompetent, etc. are generalizing too much. Isn't it possible that the public employees who work hard and do their jobs competently just don't get noticed by the public? They may represent the vast majority of public employees. They try to do the best job they can within the constraints imposed by the structure of public agencies. I will grant you that all of my experience was in scientific and engineering federal agencies where the workforce was quite highly motivated. The "service" agencies with much more public contact have a higher chance of pissing off a tax payer and so get most of the bad rap.

Grumpy

Grumpy, I can vouch for the many hard working engineers-scientists in DOE, DARPA, DOD, NSF, NIST and NASA. Did Phase I and II SBIR (small business innovation research) contracts with all these groups back in the 90's. Even have a couple of x-ray stress analyzers sitting at Wright Pat AFB still cranking out data. Also remember watching these people fight through their own red tape to make things happen. Maybe not noticed or appreciated by the general public but clearly appreciated by the scientific community.

 

[haha]

I think some of you who have been bashing public employees as lazy, incompetent, etc. are generalizing too much.  Isn't it possible that the public employees who work hard and do their jobs competently just don't get noticed by the public?  They may represent the vast majority of public employees.  They try to do the best job they can within the constraints imposed by the structure of public agencies.  I will grant you that all of my experience was in scientific and engineering federal agencies where the workforce was quite highly motivated.  The "service" agencies with much more public contact have a higher chance of pissing off a tax payer and so get most of the bad rap.

  Grumpy

I am sure that scientists are mostly self motivated. They are to somebody in the Social Security Adminstration as spec ops soldiers are to quartermasters. Really different type of motivational and reward structure.

Ha

 

[Spanky]

I have found these tributes to the government workers:

Thanks to the government worker that made sure my last flight landed safely.

Thanks to the government worker who enforced regulations that made sure I have a safe car with an airbag and seatbelt to drive in.

Thanks to the government worker who works in our local, state, and national parks to keep them clean and safe for my family to visit.

Thanks to the government worker who is trying to educate our children in the face of budget cuts and unfunded mandates.

Thanks to the government workers who investigate our elected officials when they think they are above the law.

Thanks to the government worker risks their life and their cover by protecting us from our enemies, despite the fact a politician wants to blow their cover for political retribution.

And thanks to all government workers who decided to serve their city, state or country for less money than they could have made in the private sector, only because they had a desire for public service

 

[renman]

After 20-something years as a mech/nuc engineer in gov't service, I'm pretty happy with my career path. What I discovered early on was this: As much responsibility as you're willing to take on, you'll be given it. Also found out that senior staff engineer is the best job; one step up into mgmt and you spend all your time in meetings and non-productive BS...
The stability you asked about has been there, in my case. We've been reorganized a couple of times but I've always made out well.

Renman, the thread killer...

 

[lets-retire]

To answer your question, I would definately choose a different career path, but there is a lot of security. I have to really mess up to be fired. My chosen career path does not pay what the job is worth for society, but it does have a decent retirement.

As far as politics goes, I don't get involved, unless it is so far removed from my job my opinions don't matter. I was working for the Feds and currently work for a city government.

 

[Leslie]

lets-retire said "I would really have to mess up to be fired."
I could write a book on the BS I have had to endure as a supervisor--this short story will suffice for an example.

When I was military, I had to supervise government employees. For the most part, they were good, hard working people. But I spent much of my time on two problem employees. One in particular was often late to work, called in sick, spent an inordinant amount of time on personal phone calls, and didn't have full command of the English language even though she was in a secretarial position.
She accused previous 6 male supervisors of sexual harassment i.e. "he told me to wear a tube top to work" to inappropriate touching. All of her accusations were unsubstantiated. What a freak. So enter the female supervisor (me).
I documented every infraction. Put her on the infamous "Performance Improvement Plan." Counseled her constantly. It got me charges that I was a racist ( she is Hispanic, you see, and I'm not). I swear I had a permanent parking place at the EEO building. I did worry if my own career would be ruined in my quest to remove a bad seed, but fortunately it was not.
Over the course of two years, I was unable to get her fired, but I was able to get her moved to another department. I know---I shoved the problem off on someone else. But at least my department was safe and the nightmare was over. I know my story is not unique.
I vowed to run screaming from government service employees as soon as I retired from the military.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

lets-retire said "I would really have to mess up to be fired." 
I could write a book on the BS I have had to endure as a supervisor--this short story will suffice for an example.   

When I was military, I had to supervise government employees.  For the most part, they were good, hard working people.  But I spent much of my time on two problem employees.  One in particular was often late to work, called in sick, spent an inordinant amount of time on personal phone calls, and didn't have full command of the English language even though she was in a secretarial position. 
She accused previous 6 male supervisors of sexual harassment i.e. "he told me to wear a tube top to work"  to inappropriate touching.  All of her accusations were unsubstantiated.  What a freak.  So enter the female supervisor (me). 
I documented every infraction.  Put her on the infamous "Performance Improvement Plan." Counseled her constantly.  It got me charges that I was a racist ( she is Hispanic, you see, and I'm not).  I swear I had a permanent parking place at the EEO building. I did worry if my own career would be ruined in my quest to remove a bad seed, but fortunately it was not.   
Over the course of two years, I was unable to get her fired, but I was able to get her moved to another department.  I know---I shoved the problem off on someone else.  But at least my department was safe and the nightmare was over.  I know my story is not unique.   
I vowed to run screaming from government service employees as soon as I retired from the military. 

This is but one reason that I knew from the start I could never work
in government.

JG

 

[Spanky]

Regarding getting someone fired or playing politics, the difference between the government and mega corporate is small. Difficult people and unmotivated people will always exist regardless of which organization or institution. You cannot escape from it unless you establish your own business. However, you will have a different set of problems, i.e., cash flow, difficult customers, bankers, regulators, etc.

The point is that working for the government is good for those who seek job security and great benefits. It is not for everyone.