What happened to the 40 hour work week?

[Jay_Gatsby]

When I was in private legal practice as an associate (employee), I would often rack of the billable hours in exchange for what I subsequently discovered was a paltry bonus compared to my peers and an "atta boy" (i.e. you get to keep your job). My hours were basically 9:00 a.m. to whenever (typically 8:00 p.m. or later) during the week, plus at least 5-7 billable hours on Sunday. After I left, I calculated that I probably made them over $1.5 million in pure profit for my extra hours, of which I received NOTHING. After that, I swore off the billable hour and went in house to a company where I've been ever since.

 

[Khan]

When I was in private legal practice as an associate (employee), I would often rack of the billable hours in exchange for what I subsequently discovered was a paltry bonus compared to my peers and an "atta boy" (i.e. you get to keep your job). My hours were basically 9:00 a.m. to whenever (typically 8:00 p.m. or later) during the week, plus at least 5-7 billable hours on Sunday. After I left, I calculated that I probably made them over $1.5 million in pure profit for my extra hours, of which I received NOTHING. After that, I swore off the billable hour and went in house to a company where I've been ever since.

Remember: One "Oh S!**" whipes out 1000 "attaboys".

 

[unclemick]

When I was in private legal practice as an associate (employee), I would often rack of the billable hours in exchange for what I subsequently discovered was a paltry bonus compared to my peers and an "atta boy" (i.e. you get to keep your job). My hours were basically 9:00 a.m. to whenever (typically 8:00 p.m. or later) during the week, plus at least 5-7 billable hours on Sunday. After I left, I calculated that I probably made them over $1.5 million in pure profit for my extra hours, of which I received NOTHING. After that, I swore off the billable hour and went in house to a company where I've been ever since.

On Skylab for every 8 hours of unpaid overtime - I got $1.50 to pay for my second shift lunch - luckily I skipped the lunches or I would have become very fat.



heh heh heh - .

 

[Westernskies]

I have a friend here at Megacorp who went out on disability, then returned and asked for a "work accomodation" according to the Americans with Disabilities Act. What was the huge accomodation she asked for? Nothing more than a 40-hour work week.

She interviewed for any number of internal jobs -- simply could NOT find a single manager, in this massive company, to agree to this "hardship." Friday was her last day - they laid her off.

My perspective on this is that it had nothing to do with her unwillingness to work more than 40 hours a week. The ADA didn't cover her "disability" Whether she was a good worker, a good friend, or a perpetual screw-up wasn't the issue- she was toxic in that organization when she decreed that she would or could only work the minimum. By putting constraints on what she was and wasn't willing (or able) to do in the position up front, she was ensuring she wouldn't be hired for any postion in any department. Word travels fast, especially regarding personnel issues, and for good reason. Managers are accountable for results, and need people who can be counted on to deliver when the chip are down or an important deadline has to be met, not clock out and go home because they have their 8 hours in. Personally, I would never hire someone who told me in the interview that I could only count on them for the bare minimum, it would only be asking for trouble down the road. People never look better than when you are interviewing them. With her rigid approach toward finding a new job in the organization, it is not surprising she got swept up in the recent layoff.

Think about it this way- would you hire someone to remodel your kitchen by the hour if they told you they would only be doing the bare minimum each day to get paid, would be leaving promptly at 5:00 every day whether their scheduled tasks were completed or not, and didn't care if the job was done in time for your big Thanksgiving Day Dinner with your family and friends?

 

[Caroline]

With her rigid approach toward finding a new job in the organization, it is not surprising she got swept up in the recent layoff.

It wasn't her rigid approach, actually. It was her doctor's. She went out on doctor and company-approved disability for 6 months... but no job for her when she came back, unless she was willing to re-injure herself with 60-80 hours per week.

 

[flatrock]

work

50 hours a week is min. where I work. Events at work can drive it much higher with no advance warning. Whatever it takes to clear up the problem. I have worked 4 to 16 hours each weekend since mid July on top of my overtime during the week. There would be people standing in line to take my job if I quit. I dont like it but its better than being unemployed and although Im salaried I am paid for every hour I work. I could be working more hours and not paid any extra which is what most of my other salaried friends at other companies have to do.

 

[Martha]

My perspective on this is that it had nothing to do with her unwillingness to work more than 40 hours a week. The ADA didn't cover her "disability" Whether she was a good worker, a good friend, or a perpetual screw-up wasn't the issue- she was toxic in that organization when she decreed that she would or could only work the minimum. By putting constraints on what she was and wasn't willing (or able) to do in the position up front, she was ensuring she wouldn't be hired for any postion in any department. Word travels fast, especially regarding personnel issues, and for good reason. Managers are accountable for results, and need people who can be counted on to deliver when the chip are down or an important deadline has to be met, not clock out and go home because they have their 8 hours in. Personally, I would never hire someone who told me in the interview that I could only count on them for the bare minimum, it would only be asking for trouble down the road. People never look better than when you are interviewing them. With her rigid approach toward finding a new job in the organization, it is not surprising she got swept up in the recent layoff.

The ADA may or may not have required the accommodation.

Someone who can only work 40 hours a week can still add value. When I managed our law firm we had an excellent legal assistant who went on leave for treatment of lymphoma, and when she returned she worked less than a full schedule. Still worthwhile to keep her and she is still there working about 80% time. Unlike this burnt out lawyer.

I didn't think of these things in terms of "counting on her for the bare minimum." That would be insulting to her and would minimize her contributions.

I also noticed through the years that there was a wide range in efficiency among lawyers. There are lawyers who can spend a lot of hours spinning their wheels. Others are simply more efficient. I cared more about results and appropriate hourly rates than how much face time was involved.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

I also noticed through the years that there was a wide range in efficiency among lawyers. There are lawyers who can spend a lot of hours spinning their wheels. Others are simply more efficient. I cared more about results and appropriate hourly rates than how much face time was involved.

True in my profession, too. I work fairly quickly and efficiently, but there are many pauses where forward motion stops to accommodate a moment of confusion, or emotion, or whatever.

I learned that listening is much more efficient than talking. Literally - more is accomplished in less time, and everyone's happier.

 

[popowich]

30 years ago I was 1, so I can't comment much on corporate life back then.

I imagine it has to do a lot with the type of work you do.

Some people punch time cards and work exactly 40 hours.

I come and go usually at work sometimes working at home.

If I have a rough week and work 50+ hours as long as everything is done maybe I hit happy hour early the next week after 35 hrs.

-Raymond

 

[growing_older]

Normal in most of the tech companies I've worked at is 50-60 minimum, more for managers who are trying to advance. Once in a while I've run into managers who are pushing for even more and they usually start all kinds of counter productive desk-checks. Who's here by 8AM, who's stil here by 6PM, etc. Top programmers may prefer to work early or late or irregular hours and a really good one can do much more (like 10 times more) than an average one. Once the political posturing for visible hours at work starts, the best technical people often leave quickly and that only makes the pressure for hours greater. In the few times I've worked at a place where the managers understood this, there was focus on what got done by deadlines but never on how many hours someone was at their desk. At those places, the top talent loved to show off what they could do and as a result spent even more hours than any manager would reasonably ask for. The motivation was based on wanting to accomplish something, so the hours seemed like no problem.

 

[GoodSense]

In my company we are generally expected to work 40 hours a week, 50 if in real crisis mode, but it's fairly rare. I think it's a really good environment and employees are happy. Sometimes there are unpaid "opportunities" to work on weekends but we avoid it like the plague.

I have seen other companies whose employees work much longer hours and are always traveling. They look totally burnt out. It seems that in order to show shareholders that things are being accomplished, they are always making deals, but don't have enough people to actually evaluate whether these are good deals worth making. Then because of these poorly performing assets, they are even more stressed out and short-staffed.

 

[USK Coastie]

At my employer ( Major Not for Profit Medical Center) Facilities Management was expected to "get er done". If that meant 60 -80 hour weeks to get ready for JCAHO or a contractor needed an owners rep on-site for after hours work then I was usually there. After a couple of years of this for a mid five figure income I'd had it. Told the Facility Manager that I'd do my 40 and that was it except for emergencies as I was on call 24x7x365. If they wanted more hours form me they could pay the 150 to 200K my position would be worth in Hospitality or the corporate world. They let me alone for the next 8 years.

BTW by industry standards for cost avoidance I saved the Medical Center over $500 million in required new revenue with process and cost reduction measures in 9 years. My reward a $50 gift certificate and a thank you note from the CEO. Oh yeah and an average 2% raise each year.

 

[CuppaJoe]

When I was young and more stupid I w*rked overtime, never bothered me. At one place, the atmosphere changed at 5:00 p.m., party time, people started chatting and laughing, unusual place; I didn't last long there, couldn't understand the early morning hugs.

I had one j*b I totally loved, found every piece of paper that crossed my desk fascinating, the days flew by, usually w*rked from 7:45 a.m. - about 11:00 p.m., six or seven days a week. Pulled a few overnighters, that MegaCorp. considered that a rite of passage and would set up lunches for new initiates. Did that a couple of years and went on to another MegaCorp to a 40 hour j*b and thought, now that I know I can do massive overtime, I'm going to stop; never did it again.

 

[chinaco]

Economist would call it a productivity increase. Companies can get more done for less money if we all work 50 hours. America is very productive when it comes to getting things done fairly efficiently... we are not productive (compared to India and China) on a cost basis (i.e., Wages).


I intend to coast my last couple of years... no more 50 hour weeks for me if I can help it... I could care less about a another promotion at this point. My goal is to stop working as soon as I can.

 

[Bimmerbill]

A 40 hour work week is one if the main reasons I work for the fed gov't. I can't work over 40 hours, unless I get approval from my supervisor. If I work over 40 hours I get comp time.

Now if I just could move closer to work and cut down my 1 hour trip each way I'd have a lot of time!

 

[Rambler]

I worked 60-80 hour weeks for most of the past 23 years. For several years I was travelling almost constantly with a breakfast meeting at 7am with my CFO, all day meetings with my country managers, and then travel to the next country in the evening and then catch up on email before falling into bed sometime past midnight. There were times that I would wake up in the middle of the night and seriously not know where I was. Thankfully that ended about a year ago, but over the past 12 months I have had one physical ailment (now chronic) that the doc tells me is caused by stress and over-work, and two others that are not caused by stress, but exacerbated by it. Since a hospital stay put me on my back for a week earlier this year I have been trying to cut back. As the head of a $2B sub of a megacorp, I was always stressing over things, spending lots of time at the office trying to improve things, etc, etc. Luckily, over the past 12-18 months I have been able to hire a few great people to whom I can really delegate and not worry about the outcomes. Now, I try to spend no more than 50 hours in the office and usually less than 45, but I still check email several times in the evening and first thing in the morning when I arise. In general, I do feel a lot better now, physically and about life as well. I do not recommend the pace at which I was working, the stress it caused, the lack of exercise brought on by it, or the resulting physical ailments. I do feel I am fortunate to have the job and role that I have, and that I was able to get the right people in the right places in time so I could slow down enough to survive the next couple of years until FIRE.

R

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

I do not recommend the pace at which I was working, the stress it caused, the lack of exercise brought on by it, or the resulting physical ailments.

Not to derail the thread, but that's one of the main problems with a long work week. Between work, family, commuting, eating, sleeping, bathing and some seblance of a social life, something absolutely must give. In many cases, that something is often physical exercise. Unfortunately, when you stop exercising, it creates a domino effect that spills over into virtually ever aspect of your life. This is a sad truth that many people, such as Rambler (not picking on you) don't discover until a major health scare arises.

 

[Rambler]

Not to derail the thread, but that's one of the main problems with a long work week. Between work, family, commuting, eating, sleeping, bathing and some seblance of a social life, something absolutely must give. In many cases, that something is often physical exercise. Unfortunately, when you stop exercising, it creates a domino effect that spills over into virtually ever aspect of your life. This is a sad truth that many people, such as Rambler (not picking on you) don't discover until a major health scare arises.

Jay - you hit the nail on the head. I knew what I was doing, but kept telling myself just a little more, just a little more....

R

 

[HFWR]

Thank you, Sir! May I have another?

 

[hankster]

Except for a brief stint as a small business owner, most of my working life has been spent in union positions. Over 40 hrs/week = double time pay. That keeps the extra hours to a minimum It takes a full blown crisis to get the company to shell that money out.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Jay - you hit the nail on the head. I knew what I was doing, but kept telling myself just a little more, just a little more....

R

That's too often the case in the legal profession. The running joke is that your behind grows larger to accommodate your chair. Personally, I'd rather trade money for time, which is one of the reasons why I work in-house at a company rather than go back to private practice. Being able to hit the gym, Aikido practice and spend time with my family all outweigh any extra pay. Every hour at work over 45 hours per week should be considered time-and-a-half or double-time, since that starts cutting into my personal life.

 

[Texas Proud]

While many people genuinely enjoy their jobs and the companies they work for, I suspect there are a lot of people out there who consider any company that measures their employees contributions to the success of the organization to be a "kool-aid cult". In my experience, many times these are the same folks are the ones standing around the water cooler advocating a shorter workweek; complaining about their co-workers promotions, watching the clock with with their cars idling in the parking lot at 4:45pm; leaving early on Friday to cash their paychecks, and always unhappy with their compensation and career path.

I am glad that you were able to find a job that gave you extra income for the extra input you did... sales is usually one of them..... Most other jobs if you work longer and harder... your per hour just goes down... or they just get rid of you...

And I DO think that some drink from the 'kool aid' that work long hours... there was one manager I had who used to go around and see who was at their desks between 7 and 8.... and there were a number of people who just sat there reading the wall street or doing some other 'stuff' just to get counted as 'staying late'.... they were NOT productive at all.. but got the promotions and raises... we can go tit for tat on what I think of the ones who want to work long hours... one even doing it while his wife was dying from cancer... you may think that my thinking of a 'normal' work week is waiting to get out 'early', I see it as not being a slave to the man...

BTW, when I worked in London.. the whole HR dept used to leave at 5... but they were some of the hardest working people I saw... during the day...

 

[RunningBum]

What Texas Proud said. When I was a team lead, and putting in a bunch of hours which means I knew who else was or wasn't putting in hours, and how productive everyone was, there wasn't a real strong correlation between hours and productivity. I'd say the most productive were putting in a lot of hours, but there were others close in productivity who did 40 or 40ish. Plenty of people who weren't all that productive put in lots of hours for show, or simply because they didn't know how to work efficiently. Someone who finds a quick way to get something done and leave is more valuable than someone who bangs their head against the wall for hours.

 

[laurinsane]

My Dad worked a lot of hours when I was younger. I'm 25 now. He still likes to work 7 days a week, but then again he likes to drive his nice new V8 shelby at night, eat out all the time, and enjoy concerts and shows. It was tougher when I got older because the only time I could spend time with my dad was working. I'd have to go on a job with him to spend time with him.

My dad always teases me that I have the good life because I don't work more than 40 hours a week and don't work on weekends. Both my sister and her husband work 40+ hours a week.

The difference? I have a nice car (bought used 3 years ago) I take good care of but it's 7 years old with over 100k miles on it. It's not my sister's $50K Mercedes she just had to have or the $50K Shelby, but it gets me to work and back. I go out but I like to spend my enjoyment on things that don't cost a lot of money.

I would rather cut back spending than work over 40 hours a week. It's worth the aggrivation to me. I was diagnosed with cancer when I was 16 and I know all too well what's it's like to think that you may be living the last days of your life. So I like enjoying life as much as possible. Guess that's why I'm on the early retirement forums.

 

[Kronk]

Boy, you guys scare me with those tales of long hours. This is one of the main reasons I love being an hourly consultant. I can't picture myself working 50+ hour weeks -- but then I'm a clock-watcher who can barely make it 7AM - 3PM...

Once, early in my career, I made the mistake of telling my bosses that I couldn't get something done sooner because I wasn't going to work overtime. At least I managed not to get fired... Eventually I learned the wisdom of not causing a ruckus.