Why aren't there more women science professors?

[wabmester]

And since cause and effect (or lack thereof) are among my favorite things to debate, do boys and girls develop those skills at the times they do because its inherent in their sexuality or because those things were encouraged/discouraged by family and other associated adults?

In other words, were boys rewarded for acting "like boys" and girls rewarded for acting "like girls".

Well, that was my point.   If you watch kids develop before there is much socialization, it's clear that the sexes develop differently.   Frankly, I wasn't expecting it.    I assume it's mostly a function of hormones, and I didn't think hormone levels would be that different in kids before the age of, say, 2 years old.

Obviously, all parents want their kids to develop language skills, for example.   I don't think adults have a conscious bias in this area.   But girls develop language and fine motor skills earlier.   I'm certain you'd see the same thing in kids raised by wolves.

I guess I don't see the point in pretending that everybody is built the same.    Embrace your differences and run with them.

 

[Nords]

I guess I don't see the point in pretending that everybody is built the same.    Embrace your differences and run with them.

It makes a big difference in school, where the curriculum and the class structure would benefit from treating kids according to the style of learning they feel more comfortable with.

Overall I'm glad we're raising a girl. But it's a lot more difficult in many ways than raising a guy...

 

[wabmester]

It makes a big difference in school, where the curriculum and the class structure would benefit from treating kids according to the style of learning they feel more comfortable with.

Hmm, maybe we'll see the pendulum swing away from co-ed schools once we start accepting differences rather than trying to normalize everyone.    I've mentioned before that my kid is in a Montessori preschool, and their tag line is "follow the child."    I like that as an educational philosophy.

Overall I'm glad we're raising a girl.  But it's a lot more difficult in many ways than raising a guy...

More difficult in general, or more difficult for a guy?    I find myself trying to encourage traditional male traits in my girl.    Taking things apart to see how they work.   Competition.   I read her books about dinosaurs, etc.

But I try to resist, because I remember how messed up one of my science grrrl friends was in college.    She felt pressured by her dad to excel in both science and athletics.   She was pretty good in these areas, but she didn't feel she could reach the top.   She was extremely self-critical and had pretty low self-esteem.  She felt that her dad had nurtured these traits because he really wanted a boy.

 

[Nords]

Hmm, maybe we'll see the pendulum swing away from co-ed schools once we start accepting differences rather than trying to normalize everyone.    I've mentioned before that my kid is in a Montessori preschool, and their tag line is "follow the child."    I like that as an educational philosophy.

Well, I think that learning styles are generally separated by gender but every kid is different. The bell curve is practically a rectangle with two vague humps.

"Follow the child" works great when there's a teacher who mixes different styles to find out what suits the kids-- "sit at your desk and read", kinesthetic problem solving, computer games, groups, independent study, whatever-- and finds something that hits every kid's learning buttons at least once during the day. I agree that a same-sex school makes it easier on the teacher and maybe better for girls but I'm not sure how to separate the rest of the results from the hype. I don't think that an all-girl school makes more women scientists, for example, although I bet it really cuts down on the discipline problems.

More difficult in general, or more difficult for a guy? I find myself trying to encourage traditional male traits in my girl. Taking things apart to see how they work. Competition. I read her books about dinosaurs, etc.

Sure, me too. If she's gonna be learning "guy things" then I want to be the go-to teacher. Besides my spouse doesn't appear to appreciate the importance of (or prefers to outsource) life skills like resonant eructation, physical intimidation, how to take a hit and keep going, soldering, unclogging toilets, identifying/killing bugs, installing WinXP software, testing the anti-lock brakes, and lighting the BBQ charcoal.

But for me, first there's that carbon-copy-of-my-mother thing. She has my exact temperament & tolerance (or lack thereof). We each know exactly how to push each other's buttons because they're all the same buttons. If my mother was still alive I can only imagine the multi-generational fireworks.

Second I'm apparently extremely gullible. I don't know how many times I've gone to Wal-Mart thinking that we were going to enter, locate an item on the list, put it in the cart, proceed to the checkout, and thence to the car & home. (You women are reading this and thinking "What is he talking about?!?" You guys are thinking "Yup, he's toast.") Now our house actually has separate vocabulary to differentiate the situations of "shopping" from "buying". Spouse drives for the former, I drive for the latter.

Third is my lack of preparation for women's vicious psychological warfare. Our kid understands physical interaction like martial arts or basketball so we speak a common language there, but when I was a teen I never laid awake nights worrying about which kid I was going to be spending time with at school or whether my teacher liked me or how to handle various relationship crises. It's so much easier & simpler with guys when you beat the snot out of each other and get over it. With girls, even grrrrls, it's apparently way too complicated for my comprehension. ("Yup, he's toast.") At least spouse has taught me the difference between problem-solving and supportive listening.

I think the things that make girls easier to raise include:
- She's extremely verbal. I don't think our kid can contain an unexpressed thought for more than a few minutes. I never have trouble with communication barriers, or at least identifying them.
- She seems pretty aware of her surroundings and very sensitive to other people. She can get locked into an activity or even become oblivious, but it doesn't persist to the point of physical danger. As a grownup remembering my teen years, I'm glad I don't have to contend with the way I was ("Hunh? What? Ouch!!").
- She tends to discuss things first instead of just going out and doing them. Three decades ago most of my teen discussions involved helpful phrases like "Now apologize to the firefighters" and "What were you thinking?"
- Personal hygiene has neither required nor desired my presence nor my involvement. She's neater & cleaner than the opposite sex. Her bedroom doesn't smell like a toxic-waste dump and she actually organizes possessions.
- There's no competition for alpha male supremacy. We all know that my spouse rules the house and I come in a close fourth, right behind the pet bunny.

Finally, I think it's much easier for me to teach her about what's going on in a guy's head (not that it's so hard to figure out) than it would be for me to get together with other males-- of any age with any libation-- and exchange information about what's going on inside a girl's head. ("Yup, he's toast.") If I'd solved that latter mystery, would I be a parent right now?

 

[wabmester]

"Follow the child" works great when there's a teacher who mixes different styles to find out what suits the kids-- "sit at your desk and read", kinesthetic problem solving, computer games, groups, independent study, whatever

Let's see (thumbs through Montessori manual....)

All intelligences and styles of learning—musical, bodily-kinesthetic, spatial, interpersonal, intrapersonal, intuitive, natural, and the traditional linguistic and logical-mathematical—are nurtured and respected

-- and finds something that hits every kid's learning buttons at least once during the day.

Screw that.   Give the kids access to a bunch of materials, show them a few highlights, then get out of their way and let them push their own buttons all day long.

I don't remember a damn thing from school except for those things that picqued my interest and that I followed-up on.    Thanks to the internet, I can still do that in my old age without having an on-site library.

Anyway, I have no clue what it takes to be an uberscientist.   Maybe somebody can interview a bunch of them, distill their essence, and then kids can determine if they have the Right Stuff.

The only thing I know from my own experience is that I found science interesting, but I found that other things provided both more immediate feedback/gratification and more money.   I'm happy to see anybody push the frontiers of science forward in the same way that I'm happy to see people join the army.

Somebody's got to do it, and it's not going to be me.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

If you watch kids develop before there is much socialization, it's clear that the sexes develop differently.

Undoubtedly true, and with wide variance within the sexes as well.

But you're saying you and your friends and family members dont socialize with your child?

We're some of your girls first gifts tanks and fire trucks and camoflage/nascar outfits?

We cheer and clap when Gabe successfully manages to leap from one thing to another or developes a new skill that would be considered boylike. Yet, when we were perusing toys 'r' us, I saw him grab a girls doll and hug it, and then watched my 72 year old dad scoot over and take it away, giving him a little scolding that "thats for girls!".

Its in the tv shows, movies, and wired into your family members to press and suppress certain attributes. On top of what nature gives us and in what degrees.

With both nature and nurture working together, we're obviously going to end up being very different. And end up choosing or being accepted in very different types of jobs.

And can someone tell me how to get the image of jenna jameson in a lab coat and a pair of hornrim glasses out of my head?

 

[wabmester]

But you're saying you and your friends and family members dont socialize with your child?

We're some of your girls first gifts tanks and fire trucks and camoflage/nascar outfits?

The group I was watching was odd.   Mostly older couples (30's and 40's) and several stay-at-home dads.    So, yeah, even when the girls had a stronger-than-average male influence, they still developed as girls, and the boys who were influenced by politically-correct moms still developed as boys.

I just go with the flow.   I try to expose our kid to lots of things I find interesting, and if something sticks, I try to nourish it.   These days, it's mostly drawing, reading, making up stories, running, and music.   Insects and mechanical things didn't really stick, although she surprised me recently by showing me a "contraption" (her word) that she built.   Sort of a Rube Goldberg machine involving a tennis shoe, some cups, and a ball.    I was so proud. 

 

[Nords]

I don't remember a damn thing from school except for those things that picqued my interest and that I followed-up on.    Thanks to the internet, I can still do that in my old age without having an on-site library.

No kidding.  Just about every history book I read today makes me wonder where the hell I was in high school.  Our kid, born & raised in Hawaii, knows more about the Civil War than I do, and I grew up in the middle of the culture.  Yet I find myself explaining how infantry does a wheel maneuver like they performed at Devil's Den during Gettysburg.

But you're saying you and your friends and family members dont socialize with your child?
We're some of your girls first gifts tanks and fire trucks and camoflage/nascar outfits?
We cheer and clap when Gabe successfully manages to leap from one thing to another or developes a new skill that would be considered boylike.  Yet, when we were perusing toys 'r' us, I saw him grab a girls doll and hug it, and then watched my 72 year old dad scoot over and take it away, giving him a little scolding that "thats for girls!".

Between raising your kid and re-educating your parents it's like parenting two sets of children.

Isn't it strange how society cheers when girls throw a baseball, but sneers when boys play with dolls macho action figures?

We actually acquired a house full of Barbies (along with all the other toys) and they lasted just long enough to be declared "boring".  The contrast between our kid and her girly-girl friends is at opposite ends of the bell curve.  In fact if our high school does something stupid like declaring "dresses only" for the prom, then our kid's probably gonna go straight to the ACLU.

And can someone tell me how to get the image of jenna jameson in a lab coat and a pair of hornrim glasses out of my head?

Sure, but why would you want to mess up a good deal like that one?

 

[2B]

Yet I find myself explaining how infantry does a wheel maneuver like they performed at Devil's Den during Gettysburg.

The maneuver you are describing was at Little Roundtop.  Devil's Den is down at the base of the hills.  Devil' Den is on the same side of the battlefiled but wasn't really a factor in that action as I recall.  I remember that when looking down the hill you couldn't see Devil's Den.

Now, Devil's Den is real interesting.  After the battle, they found the son of the governor of Alabama (I think, it could have been Georgia) who was a sniper.  There are pictures of Union troops displaying his body like a landed fish.  I doubt they show those anymore.

When I was little I was all over the battlefield.  We'd dig for bullets with little shovels.  I remember that there were many copperheads inside Devil's Den.  I know they don't let people dig on the battlefield anymore -- every year or so some idiot would find a cannon ball and it would explode.  They probably don't even let you go inside Devil's Den.

I lived near an old, old man who was with his father hauling milk the morning of the battle.  He had a Union musket that he or his father carried off the field.  He was over 100 when he passed away.  He had some interesting stories plus a nice apple orchard.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Between raising your kid and re-educating your parents it's like parenting two sets of children.

Dont even get me started.

I have a 16 month old going on 5 and a 72 year old going on 7.

The other day we went to one of the local parks. My dad takes the baby and sticks him in a fountain, soaking him. I have no change of clothes. His diaper now weighs 15lbs. I didnt bring the diaper bag either as we were only going for a half hour.

"Now how am I going to strap him into a car seat in a sopping diaper with wet clothes?"

Today we're enjoying a slice of pizza, the baby wants some of my dads bottled water, which is in a sports bottle with the pop up top. So he puts the top in the babys mouth, then decides its a good idea to give the bottle a nice firm squeeze.

What do you suppose happened then? Hint: more than one bad thing.

 

[Nords]

The maneuver you are describing was at Little Roundtop. Devil's Den is down at the base of the hills.

%$#^ it, failed the quiz again.

My FIL says we should hire a guide for our upcoming Gettysburg visit. I can just imagine tramping through fields in 100-degree heat & humidity sandwiched between the NPS expert on one side and our little Shelby Foote Jr. on the other... do they serve beer in the Visitor's Center?

My dad takes the baby and sticks him in a fountain, soaking him.  I have no change of clothes.
So he puts the top in the babys mouth, then decides its a good idea to give the bottle a nice firm squeeze.

That's not juvenile behavior, that's parental vengeance via the third generation...

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Well, its not vengeance when I have to tell my dad to pipe down because his antics and noises are disturbing the other people in the store/restaurant.

Does keep the baby amused though...

 

[2B]

%$#^ it, failed the quiz again. 

My FIL says we should hire a guide for our upcoming Gettysburg visit.  I can just imagine tramping through fields in 100-degree heat & humidity sandwiched between the NPS expert on one side and our little Shelby Foote Jr. on the other... do they serve beer in the Visitor's Center?

Nords---

I don't know if they serve beer at the visitor's center. I don't remember a vistor's center. Of course, they wouldn't have served me beer anyway.

Go in July and enjoy the battleground like they did in 1863. The view from Cemetery Ridge is awe inspiring as is the opposing Conferate view at the start of Pickett's Charge.

You'll see lots of signs showing you where hundreds of men were killed charging stone fences and massed cannon. It's hard to believe anyone could do that.

In 1913 they had a 50 year reunion of the men who fought there. Because they were worried about fights breaking out (remember there couldn't have been anyone under 63 there and most were 70 or above) they put the Union and Conferate campsites (yes, they made these old men camp out in July) several miles apart. There were no fights.

 

[Nords]

Go in July and enjoy the battleground like they did in 1863.  The view from Cemetery Ridge is awe inspiring as is the opposing Conferate view at the start of Pickett's Charge.

I've watched Daniel Martinez show us his "Undiscovered History" episode on Gettysburg. I think I'm going to fondly remember the video experience more than I'll enjoy the tramping-around-under-the-hot-sun experience. I'm quite familiar with the weather in that area... which is why we arranged to visit right around the middle of July. Gosh, I hope we don't get chilly.

It's the kid's school schedule. She doesn't get out until the 23rd of June and there was no way we were gonna blunder across Gettysburg or DC during the 4th of July. But she starts 9th grade at the end of July so we're cramming it all into a fun-filled action-packed two weeks. Spouse and I haven't been back to this area since 1992.

But we'll be visiting USNA with a shipmate from way back who's now living in one of those fancy senior officer's houses that we used to have to visit to practice our etiquette. Our kid will get to see Plebe Summer at its finest and decide whether or not she's really smarter than her parents. My BIL the CPA and his wife will spend a weekend there with us and then help us with the Smithsonian Death March the following week. My nephew the Army Ranger will drop in for a USNA weekend and then leave for his summer training-- which ironically will involve house-sitting our place while he's working with a Schofield Barracks unit. This could turn out to be the vacation of the decade.

I think our next four years of vacations will all have college themes, and May 2007 will probably be West Point for my nephew's graduation. It should all be pretty interesting... and sweaty.

 

[2B]

I've watched Daniel Martinez show us his "Undiscovered History" episode on Gettysburg.  I think I'm going to fondly remember the video experience more than I'll enjoy the tramping-around-under-the-hot-sun experience. 

My grandfather took me there regularly until 5th grade. I don't really remember the weather being that hot. We then moved to New Mexico so my concept of "hot" was quickly altered. I do remember laying in sweat in my Pennsylvania bedroom with my brother during heat waves.

I'd love to go back and walk the battlefield. I'm sure it won't be anything like I remember. I probably won't be able to go and do the things I remember. I'm also sure it's now a "sacred monument" little kids aren't allowed to run, explore and learn. If nothing else, President Eisenhower won't be at his farm. I think that's now a national monument or his library or something.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

My FIL says we should hire a guide for our upcoming Gettysburg visit.

Nords,

We visited the battlefield at Vicksburg, MS, and hired a guide. It made a huge difference in our appreciation of the place. Strongly recommended.

Ed

 

[deserat]

Well, to sort of bring this back on topic - I'll give my history.

I am female, have two engineering degrees (bachelor's in mechanical engineering, master's in biomedical engineering), also have training in computer systems management, project management, ad nauseum.

My experience, and some of the statistics I've seen through the Society of Women Engineers backs up my thesis - as a girl, it is a lot easier to have an interest in science and math to pursue higher education in those realms - in fact, I think there needs to be a sustained interest from grade school on. I am an example of that - although I did well at all subjects (except hand-writing), I ended up being the only girl many times in my math and science classes or part of the 'gifted' curriculum. I don't say this to brag - I say it because I think that is what is needed for a female to excel in the sciences and engineering.

I don't remember experiencing overt discrimination, however, I did realize that if I wanted to succeed in this 'man's' world, I would have to have all the credentials and then some - I would have to out-perform consistently - but in a positive way, if possible. Today, I am the only one on our team who has all the blocks filled (graduate degeree, extensive experience and professional certification).

The comment made about women in certain types of engineering is right on - biomedical, chemical and environmental engineering seem to draw women - the other 'hard' engineering disciplines less so (civil, mechanical, electrical) - the traditional disciplines tend to very male dominated and based on my anecdotal surveys with my female colleagues tend to have more hostile environments for women.

There is still a dearth of females in the science and engineering professions---whereas the law and medical professions are fairly evenly represented - I don't know why that is so - perhaps the payoff for the extra hard work for those professions is seen as much higher than that for scientists and engineers. I would also argue that the skills needed to excel in science and math are different from those I find needed for other professions-and at the risk of being persecuted, I wonder if there is some type of different nuerological wiring that pre-disposes the ease with which one might perform some tasks or think in a certain way. I do know that one of the hardest things I've had to learn is spatial thinking - i.e., when we would do our architectural drawings and have to do the perspectives - or the foldout views - this is akin to single pilot instrument flying - keeping a 3-d idea of how your plane is positioned in space as depicted on your instruments and the chart.

In the 20 years I've been an engineer, I haven't seen a significant increase in the amount of women engineers...and frankly don't expect there to be major changes. However, when I do get a chance to counsel young ladies, I talk about the advantages of being an engineer - creatively, experiences, and financial benefits (as compared to some other professions).

Deserat

 

[wabmester]

I wonder if there is some type of different nuerological wiring that pre-disposes the ease with which one might perform some tasks or think in a certain way.  I do know that one of the hardest things I've had to learn is spatial thinking - i.e., when we would do our architectural drawings and have to do the perspectives - or the foldout views - this is akin to single pilot instrument flying - keeping a 3-d idea of how your plane is positioned in space as depicted on your instruments and the chart.

Apparently, there are pretty significant differenes between the sexes in this area:

Chart

You obviously have some great math and computer skills.  I wonder if some female math/cs geeks take a different approach to problem solving than men.   I know that I relied heavily on 3D abstractions in solving problems and designing algorithms.

You must have studied subjects like continuum mechanics and fluid dynamics as part of your bioengineering program.   Didn't that involve a lot of spatial visualization?

 

[Martha]

Men's brains are bigger than women's brains.

This is because they aren't as efficient.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

hey, as long as they're bigger, we dont care.

 

[Martha]

I know.

 

[Dawg52]

I don't care who has the bigger brain. But I do agree we need more female science professors. Now who wouldn't want a science professor as below?

 

[kaudrey]

Hi,

deserat, you could almost be my sister! She is an environmental engineer - did all the advanced stuff in HS, Cornell undergrad, UMass for the PhD.

She just got tenure at WPI. She is the only female in her department but there are a few other woman professors in the engineering school. Not many.

I never had the aptitude for all that complicated stuff myself, but I am still good at numbers - I'm the "finance" one in the family.

My dad was an electrical engineer (FIRE'd at 57), so he must have rubbed off on her more than me.

We think he always wanted boys. He'd never admit it, of course. But, he has 2 daughters who are math whizzes, athletes, and sports nuts who do their own repairs on their houses. Maybe he was trying to balance out the "influence" others would have on our desires to do "non-girly" things.

 

[wabmester]

This just in from the wires:

Women are gaining on men

The article states that not only are women catching men in terms of advanced degrees, but men are slacking off.    I can relate.

 

[deserat]

Wab,

Interesting article - didn't see any engineering did you? It mentioned medicine, law and optometry......

As for 3-d visualization in fliud mechanics - etc - sure - but not as hard as the fold out origami drawing stuff...

As for my dad wanting a boy - he had one - I was just very fortunate to have parents who didn't try to 'type' me by gender - they knew at what level I should perform and only intervened when they sensed I wasn't performing to that level Ok, I admit it, I'm a Daddy's girl - said I wanted to be a mechanical engineer 'cuz he was before I even had any idea what it was.....case in point:

Senior year in undergrad - studying air cycles in thermodynamics - I know the PST diagrams and all that jazz - we get to the lab and we're going to do an experiment with a turbine engine - I'm in charge of determining the mass flow rate of the fuel - our professor hands us some earplugs and says, "When we turn this engine on, it gets loud." I plug in my earplugs and then they turn the engine on - lightbulb in my head - this is an airplane engine I knew a lot of theory but not a lot of practical information.....can be an issue with 'girls.'

Deserat