Work Collapses Around Me

[Patrick]

Maybe re-phrase things to help understand....

Let's say you are driving through the desert in Nevada, and it's 200 miles to the next little town. You see a mom and her kids stuck on the side of the road, and obviously they have run out of gas. You just happen to have a siphon kit in your car, but you don't want to stop because you'll be late for your flight.

Do you stop anyway, knowing you might miss your flight and have to deal with the airline?

Or, since you have no legal obligation to help, do you let the lady deal with it herself, hoping that she can get help from someone else?

Neither. You call 911 on your cell phone.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

It is easy to see who on this board is/were Management and who is/were Labor.

It also confirms my general assessment of Management in the US as mostly in need of a glass belly button. Loyalty is only one-way. Communication is only one-way.

Once again, I am so glad that I am a contractor.

 

[Patrick]

It is easy to see who on this board is/were Management and who is/were Labor.

It also confirms my general assessment of Management in the US as mostly in need of a glass belly button. Loyalty is only one-way. Communication is only one-way.

Once again, I am so glad that I am a contractor.

Do You Need a Glass Belly Button?

 

[samclem]

We all come with a basket of experiences and attitudes. This is an example of something you wrote that highlighted this:

I cannot seem to emphasize enough, this is NOT my area of responsibility and I only accidentally got involved in the first place. It is not my job and has never been any part of my job, and I really don't think I deserve to be fired for failing to do someone else's job on my own time after hours.

In places I've worked, if I get called into a meeting to discuss a problem, then somebody is paying me to be in that meeting. My job at that point is to contribute. If I have a constructive idea, I offer it. I don't care if it's about the situation in my department, in another department, or in a part of the company clear across the country. If they take my suggestion, that's great--it's satisfying, isn't it? If they want me to implement the fix, it means they think I'm the best person to do it AND it's more important to the company than what I was doing.

I've never said "that's not my job" unless someone was trying to use my time in a way that wasn't in keeping with what my boss wanted. And that seems to me to be the best way to say it: "I've got other things I'm already expected to accomplish. I can work on your project if my boss gives the okay." But, like most people (including you, from what you've written) I do try to help folks do their jobs, just as I'd appreciate their assistance with mine. If they can "waste" two minutes explaining a better way of doing something, and that saves me 2 hours, then I doubt anybody's boss is going to be upset by how the time was used. But I know people feel differently about this.

Ultimately, anyone who says "that's not my job" is entirely correct. The job "belongs" to the company. They made the job, they can eliminate it, and they can fill it with whoever they choose. It truly is their job.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

In the industries that I have worked, I have found that I can do most things better than those who have been assigned to do them. I can do anything; but I do not see why I should do everything. I have also found that those who need help the most do not understand that they need it at all and my input is unwelcome.

As a contractor, my role is now well-defined. I am not married to a company and they do not expect me to be. They get my best work, I get out of the car and then they drive the car off a cliff. I remember when I was expected to stay in the car and listen to management self-delusional rhetoric. And they want the workers to take drug tests!

 

[growing_older]

You can stay there and see how it goes, but I would be willing to bet that in 6 months' time you will wish you had split sooner. Were I in your shoes, I would start looking.

I had this experience elsewhere and it was six months of hell I hope not to repeat. I'm just too optimistic to assume it's happening again, but there is a real possibility that that is what I'm in for.

In places I've worked, if I get called into a meeting to discuss a problem, then somebody is paying me to be in that meeting. My job at that point is to contribute. If I have a constructive idea, I offer it.

This seems like a more accessible explanation of what people seem to think I have done wrong here. And I will think about that. Of course I wasn't called into the meeting, I crashed it, so there are some political overtones of just how much was I expected to speak up. I did offer several viable solutions and volunteered to implement them on my own time. What I didn't do was offer the solution I think is best, but rather observed that others were not offering it either. In any case, I have not been assigned to do anything about this problem, yet I will be solving it (at least for about a year) before work Monday and before anyone else does anything about it, except the 2 guys making lists. I did offer this suggestion to the people actually responsible for the machine after the meeting, and they seemed happy to take me up on it. By the way, my new boss is also not responsible for the factory floor. I'm not sure I understand why he has people making lists, but then he hasn't said anything to me about that either.

He might be talking trash, but he's doing it on this forum, not at work.

Good grief, of course I am not talking down the new boss at work. Nor anyone else. I cannot very well tell the story here without describing the guy, but I would NOT and HAVE NOT said anything like that at work. I'm trying to say what I think, but I'm also saying I'm not set in this judgment, because I've hardly even met the guy.

In the industries that I have worked, I have found that I can do most things better than those who have been assigned to do them. I can do anything; but I do not see why I should do everything. I have also found that those who need help the most do not understand that they need it at all and my input is unwelcome.

Maybe this is indicating that I am no longer feeling a welcome part of this company and I should look for contracting work. At least then I will get paid for whatever efforts I do make and I will not be doing things except at the request of someone who presumably will appreciate if I actually do them. I hate to concede that they are killing my attitude, since I'm normally a super positive guy.

I am honestly surprised how many people think I should be in trouble (perhaps terminated, even) because I didn't push more aggressively into another department's business. I've been treading lightly about this at work, because I rather more expected a potential problem with being too meddlesome. Normally we don't encourage folks from accounting to be ON the factory floor, let alone reprogramming the machines. I did my best last time to get the okay of the supervisors on the floor and I will do the same this time.

 

[W2R]

None of us were there, and you know what happened at the meeting better than any of us do. We also are not as familiar with the organizational culture there as you are. This is a very complex situation. I would take what has been posted on this thread under consideration, but with a grain of salt.

 

[growing_older]

Thanks. I do appreciate the feedback I have gotten, though it wasn't at all what I expected.

What I had hoped to solicit was advice and experience on how to deal with needing a few more years working (and saving) in a work environment that looks like it will deteriorate. How can that be made tolerable? Can it? If it becomes intolerable, how much trouble will I be in if I bail at a few years shy of my original ER goal. Is there anything I can do to try to make it more likely that a deteriorating situation can be salvaged enough, like maybe just reminding myself there's light at the end of a few years and take it one day at a time. I don't know. Wisdom from anonymous strangers who may have been in similar situations before me.

 

[W2R]

What I had hoped to solicit was advice and experience on how to deal with needing a few more years working (and saving) in a work environment that looks like it will deteriorate. How can that be made tolerable? Can it? If it becomes intolerable, how much trouble will I be in if I bail at a few years shy of my original ER goal. Is there anything I can do to try to make it more likely that a deteriorating situation can be salvaged enough, like maybe just reminding myself there's light at the end of a few years and take it one day at a time. I don't know. Wisdom from anonymous strangers who may have been in similar situations before me.

I somehow managed to work in a bad work environment for six years by focusing on the paycheck, and figuring that they were paying me for putting up with the baloney more than for doing the job. Hope that helps. Just count your money and keep your head down, and let the baloney bounce off you (or fall off like water off a duck's back, if you are lucky).

In my case, after 6 years I was completely stunned to find out that my best friend was going to become my supervisor, after the Supervisor From Hades got promoted. After that, work was a breeze.

I would encourage you to retire on your own schedule, when you are ready and feel your nestegg is what you want it to be. Some people cannot do that because of layoffs, etc, but you can. By doing this, you are not surrendering control of your retirement date to them (so you won't have to resent them for decades for messing up your plans).

You don't have that long to go before ER, which is why I am not suggesting that you quit. Changing jobs (and possibly moving or taking other financial hits) could set your date back a few years. Plus, if you have a pension that would be affected.

 

[Cato]

This thread has been facinating as to how things work in megacorp in the USA. I am indeed grateful that I work as an independent contactor and only have to pay the occasional lipservice to management - and occasional private headshake when they get things so badly wrong. It seems as though good management of people is a much scarcer resource than I had assumed.

I like W2R's advice - try and hang in there and hopefully the new boss will find his feet - it sounds from your description as though he places great emphasis on trouble shooting and this may reflect his past history. In the end we are all products of our past experiences.

 

[FreeAtLast]

I would suggest the idea. The company is has a problem and you have the solution. You may become noticed and appreciated. It sounds like you will feel good about fixing the problem.

As far as the new manager goes, I think only time will have the answer. In the short term you have to do what is good for the company. Keep an eye out on the long term and do what is good for you.

 

[Brat]

How about this: "I think I have a solution to your problem but if you decide to implement it and want my help I can't do that and fulfill my other responsibilities. Do you want to hear my suggestion?"

Speak in general terms and see what happens. If you are brushed off they had their chance and you didn't hold out the information, if they are interested make sure they credit you for your knowledge. You may have the new manager eating out of your hand.

There is nothing wrong with exploring other opportunities. Know the terms of your retirement and other fringe benefits so that if something comes your way you know how the change would pencil out.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

OK, final note. Tell the company your solution. THEN go to work for old boss. Is everybody happy now?

 

[Chickadee]

One question keeps coming to mind as I have read through this discussion: After your "fix" on Monday, how will it get explained that the system suddenly started working faster? Especially since this has gotten such attention that people are assigned to research the problem. It seems likely it will get to back to the new manager. You might want to think through a response, or hold off doing the fix temporarily. Instead, what if you didn't do the fix immediately Monday morning, but instead went into the manager's office Monday morning, told him you worked over the weekend on your own time to come up with a temporary fix to their situation. If he wants, you are willing to apply the fix to the system immediately, which would give them time to find a more permanent solution? That puts the decision in his hands, he looks like a hero, you get credit for your efforts (he'll think more favorably of you hopefully), and it doesn't make you look like you went behind his back.

As for how to manage through the next few years, I think a good approach would be to excel at your core responsibilities to the best of your ability, try to keep a positive "can do" attitude at work (that's hard sometimes but you need to), and let management know that you are willing to do whatever they need. And communicate with your manager what you feel your strengths are, so he can utilize them to the company's benefit. Managers like people who are team players. Remind yourself daily of what is still positive at work. Change and reorgs always concern people. Remember that companies always want to keep their good employees. Your focus is to make sure they see you in that light. Then, FIRE away, because you will have achieved your goal!

Good luck!

 

[Midpack]

It is easy to see who on this board is/were Management and who is/were Labor.

It also confirms my general assessment of Management in the US as mostly in need of a glass belly button. Loyalty is only one-way. Communication is only one-way.

Once again, I am so glad that I am a contractor.

Loyalty and communication are only from the worker to the manager? You can't be serious, especially in this case.

When you read about an employee complaining about his/her boss, how do you determine who's the problem? Do you assume the worker's version is always completely accurate? Do you believe it's important to hear both sides of the story (in my experience, it's very rare to get the complete, accurate story from one person)?

There are most certainly marginally or even outright incompetent managers, I have known and worked with many like we all have. But for every incompetent manager, there are multiples of employees who make every other worker and managers life miserable while doing lowest common denominator work (they're smart enough to stay just above the line to avoid termination).

When the OP relates a work story that includes, 'I didn't get to help choose my new boss (absurd IMO),' 'I know the solution to a problem the company is about to expend a lot of resources to solve, but I'm not going to share it, and other people know too,' and repeatedly tells me 'it's not my job' and 'it's not my area' - it makes me a little skeptical.

 

[chinaco]

L...
There are most certainly marginally or even outright incompetent managers, I have known and worked with many like we all have. But for every incompetent manager, there are multiples of employees who make every other worker and managers life miserable while doing lowest common denominator work (they're smart enough to stay just above the line to avoid termination).

...

Yup! And that is the same in many companies (at least my experience)!

Some companies, like GE are know for do an annual culling. IMO - this is stressful on all, but also a good idea. No doubt it can be abused and it is used in some cases to settle some old scores.... but for the most partl, most organizations will do their best to keep the best around and get rid of the problems.

I have worked as an engineer (or other professional capacities) and in different management positions. As a worker having peers that are dead weight is about as bad as having a poor manager.

Some confuse a "good manager" with protecting them or insulating them from issues. But the reality is it is a balance. Management often requires a manager to deal with problem issue and make certain demands on staff. It is part of the job.

Frankly, what I have seen.... only about 10% are truly exceptional, the rest are capable with degrees of mediocrity that is self imposed because they spend too much energy trying to avoid things they do not want to do.

There is probably about 10% to 15% that is absolute dead weight that should be fired.... but... this does not happen because a manager is hoping to avoid dealing with the problem.

 

[chinaco]

I wouldn't over elevate what people here say. We have no real information, so our responses will mostly just reflect our prejudices and habitual ways of responding to seemingly similar events.
I think you are wise to keep an eye out for bureaucratic minefields, but also that worrying about a little temporary overtime would be an error. This is going to be a lot less disruptive than looking for a new job.

Ha

Yup! Well stated.

 

[growing_older]

I didn't get to help choose my new boss (absurd IMO)

Interesting to see how strong of a reaction this complaint generated and probably also tells me that my expectation for a collaborative and involved workplace is too high, no matter that this place talks about it all the time. It would have been nice to be involved in the selection process, but my complaint wasn't that *I* wasn't involved, it was that no one was involved. I would have hoped at least someone other than the hiring manager would have been part of the selection process, perhaps interviewed the candidate and discussed his qualifications. I understand reorgs and changes happen, but having a new boss come in with no input from anyone except the hiring manager, then having the new boss reorg the department without talking to anyone in it, is a pretty stark contrast between the collaborative rhetoric and a new autocratic style. I am concerned that with no input from the team, this guy's major qualification could be that he is friends with the hiring manager and his first few actions are doing nothing to alleviate that concern. I am also concerned that this new autocratic style presages other changes that will negatively impact the working environment and make my last few years here much more difficult to live with.

Before I elicit another round of condemnation, let me emphasize, I am describing my concerns here, but not at work, not even in private conversations at work. They have no idea of my hopes to ER in a few years, and they have no idea of my reservations about this new boss and I am trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. or at least an opportunity to grow into the job. They are aware that I am concerned about turnover and I am actively helping recruit new engineers, but that's about it. I did volunteer several ideas in the (now controversial) brainstorming meeting that will solve this problem, at least two of which involve no cost (except to me) and can be done immediately. What I withheld was another idea that accomplishes the same thing, that I thought was noteworthy because it is the MOST OBVIOUS idea, because we've done it before and it was even on the slide set. How obvious can it be. Maybe being so obvious is what prevented anyone from mentioning it, It also involves no cost (except to me) and can be done immediately, but may or may not be superior to the others. What I thought noteworthy was other people who also know it, didn't mention it either, which may be a clue to their attitudes or states of mind, or maybe everyone was just tired. I don't know.

I don't know about the idea that I am somehow disloyal and costing the company money by withholding a possible solution. The meeting ended with no action items and no plan for what to do next. I talked to the machine guy immediately afterward and arranged to try one of my fixes. I think I'm being proactive and working to save the company money. They (hopefully) will not have to run the machine overtime or buy a new one. The people who would have to make those decisions know what I am suggesting and know that I am trying it Monday. I think I am being helpful, without impacting my official job assignment, and volunteering my own time to address this issue (in another department). Potentially I could be costing the company money by not advising everyone else that I am trying a fix, so they may be wasting effort trying something on their own, but we had no discussion about actions to be taken nor any opportunity to say what might be tried or when. Machine guys are not aware of any such efforts underway. I suppose I could proactively go talk to everyone who might be involved in an effort to help and tell them what I'm trying, but that makes me feel acutely uncomfortable and smacks of self promotion much more than any effort to helpfully prevent them from wasting effort. I think that could be taken as openly hostile to my new boss and whatever he is doing, so I am very reluctant to try anything like that. I am concerned that I could be blindsiding my new boss if he is unaware of my extracurricular activities on this issue (thanks for feedback) so I will try to get at least him uptodate as soon as I can.

And I think my next task is to think through Plan A, Plan B, Plan C for what I want to do if this collapse is as bad as I think it's going to be, or maybe if it can be made tolerable or not. Or maybe one of those plans has to be what to do if I'm fired, since there seems to be at least some management schools of thought that I've been behaving badly, and if that idea is shared by my new boss I think that could easily happen. (Again, thanks for the feedback, I would not have otherwise anticipated this possibility).

 

[Rustic23]

Did we miss something? In May of 2009 you wrote “I got notice today that I will be laid off in 60 days. Poof - job gone. Many people who were laid off in previous rounds have yet to find employment and from what I'm seeing the job market is still pretty thin around here.”

You also posted that they were advertising for your replacement. Somehow I have the feeling all in not right with these post.

So what gives?

 

[target2019]

Interesting to see how strong of a reaction this complaint generated and probably also tells me that my expectation for a collaborative and involved workplace is too high, no matter that this place talks about it all the time. It would have been nice to be involved in the selection process, but my complaint wasn't that *I* wasn't involved, it was that no one was involved. I would have hoped at least someone other than the hiring manager would have been part of the selection process, perhaps interviewed the candidate and discussed his qualifications. I understand reorgs and changes happen, but having a new boss come in with no input from anyone except the hiring manager, then having the new boss reorg the department without talking to anyone in it, is a pretty stark contrast between the collaborative rhetoric and a new autocratic style. I am concerned that with no input from the team, this guy's major qualification could be that he is friends with the hiring manager and his first few actions are doing nothing to alleviate that concern. I am also concerned that this new autocratic style presages other changes that will negatively impact the working environment and make my last few years here much more difficult to live with.

I think that your previous boss fostered such feelings of collaboration, and with the exodus of 30% of management, you will not feel like collaborating. The mistake that many of us make, is that we expect that companies are really nice places to spend a lot of time. However, that simply is not true for many workers. A great match between employee and boss is not easy to find. You had it, and now you don't. I think you're wise to develop alternative plans. When you're boss and others hi-tailed it to the next saloon, they were leading by example. If your values are like theirs, you need to develop alternative plans.
Don't forget that power flows downward. If you do not feel comfortable with the current flowing through your body 40 hours a week or more, it is time to move on.
I also wouldn't be driven too much by the extreme opinions posted on an internet board. How much did you pay for this advice?
I wish you well. It will be interesting to see how you fare.

 

[target2019]

Did we miss something? In May of 2009 you wrote “I got notice today that I will be laid off in 60 days. Poof - job gone. Many people who were laid off in previous rounds have yet to find employment and from what I'm seeing the job market is still pretty thin around here.”

You also posted that they were advertising for your replacement. Somehow I have the feeling all in not right with these post.

So what gives?

At the end of the thread, he mentioned that he received another offer.

 

[growing_older]

In May of 2009 you wrote “I got notice today that I will be laid off in 60 days. Poof - job gone. Many people who were laid off in previous rounds have yet to find employment and from what I'm seeing the job market is still pretty thin around here.”

Yes, I was laid off from that job. Luckily I found something new quickly. I know others who looked for a long time and a few who relocated for work when they couldn't find anything locally. I was lucky and had a strong network of former coworkers. I've been here almost 2 years. I'm grateful and appreciative to be here and generally willing to do extra efforts to do the best I can for the company, such as probably more work in other departments off hours. At that place, I also thought I was doing a good job and have absolutely top mark reviews for years, but there was a new manager brought in and I was given my notice almost immediately, within a month or so of his starting. Maybe that partly contributes to my nervous reaction and wary concern about a new manager here that I don't know, and most importantly doesn't know me. I am the old tech guy, who knows lots about obsolete technologies. I know age discrimination is illegal, but it wouldn't surprise me if people think because I know lots about old technology I may not know as much about new technology, and I suspect that contributed to my lay off. With time to get to know me and my contributions, I feel secure managers will see me as a valuable team member even if I am older than they are, but new people who don't know me yet, might make stereotypical assumptions.

They did in fact replace me with a younger (and presumably cheaper) worker. Technically I think I had a strong case for age discrimination. But with a new job to concentrate on, it didn't seem wise to pursue that kind of stressful action. Suppose I won, I wouldn't want to return there to a place that didn't want me. Coincidentally, I also did see recently that they were advertising for a replacement again, so the younger guy must have moved on, and I thought about applying for my old job. Might have been amusing to folks in HR, but since I don't want the job, I didn't do it.

 

[target2019]

Yes, I was laid off from that job. Luckily I found something new quickly. I know others who looked for a long time and a few who relocated for work when they couldn't find anything locally. I was lucky. I've been here almost 2 years. At that place, I also thought I was doing a good job and have absolutely top mark reviews for years, but there was a new manager brought in and I was given my notice almost immediately, within a month or so of his starting. Maybe that partly contributes to my nervous reaction and wary concern about a new manager here that I don't know, and most importantly doesn't know me. I am the old tech guy, who knows lots about obsolete technologies. I know age discrimination is illegal, but it wouldn't surprise me if people think because I know lots about old technology I may not know as much about new technology, and I suspect that contributed to my lay off. With time to get to know me and my contributions, I feel secure managers will see me as a valuable team member, but new people who don't know me yet, might make stereotypical assumptions.

If you don't mind, how much more do you think your experience pays? I know for my job, the next level up pays about $7500. So, at level 3, I make about $15K more than a level 1. Where I work, there is quite a bit of pressure to reduce costs. So, the first layoff was a 58-year old level 3 graphic artist. I would think the same happens in a programming pool.

 

[growing_older]

Pay is a pretty complicated issue. I'm a pretty frugal guy and I'm living on much less than my full pay as I try to build up my FIRE stash. I didn't negotiate pay here, just took what they offered, but I didn't negotiate pay at the last place either. Over time, reviews tend to come with raises and over time, I think that makes me more expensive but both the last place and this one are very secretive about pay issues, so I don't have much idea what other people are making. If I had very very good rapport with my boss I suppose I could tell him I'd be willing to work for less if that ever became an issue, but that seems to me to be an exceedingly dangerous conversation to have. The last few times I've gotten new jobs, the pay has been less than the ending pay at the previous place, but technology in general has been a tough job market off and on for almost 10 years, so landing the job has seemed much more important to me than pushing for salary. Over time, I have been very fortunate getting raises, so any step back tends to be eliminated after a review or two.

I do think you are right that companies looking to cut costs tend to look at eliminating more expensive salaries first, and aside from the age issue, that seems not surprising. It's unclear to me what I should do about that, however. I don't want to only take more junior jobs, I'd probably get very bored with the work. It does also mean that the supposed market forces that keep companies honest about offering good benefits and reasonable 401k plans are much less than I think some people claim they are. If workers had an easy choice to make between employers who offered better plans and better working environments and not so good, then those with not so good would need to improve in order to get workers. But most everyone (well, me at least) is only able to find one or a very few jobs at a time, so the choice is only take it or leave it, not which employer is better. When I have no job, I'm willing to accept almost any employer who offers me one.

 

[chinaco]

Did we miss something? In May of 2009 you wrote “I got notice today that I will be laid off in 60 days. Poof - job gone. Many people who were laid off in previous rounds have yet to find employment and from what I'm seeing the job market is still pretty thin around here.”

You also posted that they were advertising for your replacement. Somehow I have the feeling all in not right with these post.

So what gives?

Unemployment numbers are concentrated more in certain jobs. Of course this also varies by region.

Certain professions have low unemployment numbers (i.e., full employment or even a shortage of qualified professionals... in certain areas of the country).


Unemployment Rates, a Detailed Look - Infographic - WSJ.com