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Old 10-13-2018, 10:49 AM   #141
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Still ignoring the taxpayer funded part.... eh?
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Old 10-13-2018, 10:53 AM   #142
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Who pays for Medicaid, VA, Basic Medicare if not the Tax Payer in the End. Why should it be OK for some to get help but not others?
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:28 AM   #143
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Still ignoring the taxpayer funded part.... eh?
If you want to get technical, taxpayers pay part of everyone's health insurance. ACA,VA, Medicare, Medicaid, and deductions by employers and self-employed on their taxes...now there is one group that is generally SOL....retired people above the ACA cliff. The deductions for that group are slim to none and don't start with the first dollar.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:31 AM   #144
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I actually would like to see employer provided health insurance prohibited. It probably made more sense back when it first started in that people stayed with employers for long times and employers were much more paternalistic.
Prohibiting employer provided health would create a giant pool of people that insurers and medical service providers would be forced to compete for that would have more pricing leverage than just current individual insurance market.
This would have to be an important part of (imaginary) single payer or complete revamp of the HI for the US. "this company has great benefits!" has created golden handcuffs in a lot of situations. The core issue of having to change doctors, costs, coverage, and unknowns, helps to suppress workers from being as competitive as they could be, and many become frozen in place by benefit packages, particularly if they have a family member with ongoing treatment needs.

Just like you hear all these start ups with pool tables and dry cleaning on site, free lunches - they aren't being nice, they are motivating you to spend more time at the office, and less time thinking of going elsewhere.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:49 AM   #145
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With all the talk about AI and how it will take over jobs because it will be more efficient, support driver-less vehicles, diagnose illnesses, etc., I just want an AI application that can tell me the cost of a medical visit or procedure before I commit to it, or allow me to do price comparisons among different providers. That would certainly help for planning for medical expenses.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:52 AM   #146
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I just want a Robot that do all the housework for free, is that too much to ask for?
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:07 PM   #147
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If you want to get technical, taxpayers pay part of everyone's health insurance. ACA,VA, Medicare, Medicaid, and deductions by employers and self-employed on their taxes...now there is one group that is generally SOL....retired people above the ACA cliff. The deductions for that group are slim to none and don't start with the first dollar.
Bolded - but isn't it a personal decision to retire before 65 yo with the knowledge that one will be over the cliff and thus must provide extra for medical.
Now for folks who retire involuntarily for example due to health or a layoff, etc, I agree with you.
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:54 PM   #148
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Bolded - but isn't it a personal decision to retire before 65 yo with the knowledge that one will be over the cliff and thus must provide extra for medical.
Now for folks who retire involuntarily for example due to health or a layoff, etc, I agree with you.
Didn't say it wasn't a personal choice just said that this particular group of people get no government bennies to pay for HI.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:05 PM   #149
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Who pays for Medicaid, VA, Basic Medicare if not the Tax Payer in the End. Why should it be OK for some to get help but not others?
I would turn it around and ask why do those in their prime who are not poor deserve help?

As a country we have made a conscious decision to provide health insurance to the poor (Medicaid). Similarly, we have made a conscious decision to provide health benefits to veterans.

A good portion of Medicare is funded by premiums paid and is a program that as a country we have made a decision to provide to the elderly.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:15 PM   #150
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If the pre-existing condition protection is the "candy" we all want to have, then the individual mandate is the "spinach" many people don't want to have. The latter is the price for the former.
Well, not any more...
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:21 PM   #151
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Yes, and that's actually already proven to be the case.

Funny thing when you have a product people don't "have" to buy. The companies selling (in this case, the insurers) can't simply keep raising rates into infinity with an inelastic demand curve. They actually have to let the free market (there's a concept) decide what people will be willing to pay, or they just won't buy it.
Proven? That's laughable.

It's also funny that you think there is currently a free market for health insurance that is deciding the premium costs.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:22 PM   #152
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Ding ding.

ACA certainly cost me much more money than pre-ACA days. Back then my health insurance cost would be zero cause I couldn't buy any.....
So don't buy any.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:23 PM   #153
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I can't believe how much Medicare B, D, and Medigap added together is.

I also can't believe Porky hasn't shown up yet.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:26 PM   #154
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This has been a delightful thread so far, lots of participation, post have been (mostly) polite, respectful and well informed. Lets make an effort to keep it that way ..
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:29 PM   #155
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+1 for them.

I have a c-spine that could cost hundreds of thousands to make whole, if I survive. Of course there's a great chance of being paralyzed surgery or a fall. I'll keep paying whatever, to prevent medical bankruptcy.

A few years ago I had an emergency room visit that was 25k( CTs, ultrasound. and an IV). Trust me, no one would bear that pain I got to experience. They gave me Dilaudid for pain management.

I was still in my deductible stage but the insurance companies discount saved like 23k. I'm not sure about anyone else but it seems foolish to go without.
It is quite foolish. But folks are allowed to be fools if they choose to do so. Now that the penalty has dropped to $0, they won't pay for their foolishness... if they are lucky.

My cancer infusion treatments cost between $22k and $28k each. I've had 10 so far with 2 more treatments planned. After that, we'll see.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:35 PM   #156
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I have seen elderly people have surgery. Necessary surgery. If they’re frail to begin with, it may very well exacerbate the symptoms. I have seen elderly people who have surgery. Necessary surgery. If they’re frail to begin with, it may very well exacerbate the symptoms.

Everything has to be taken on a case by case basis, of course. But the surgery itself can be so hard on someone’s body that I can’t say I recommend it. A new kidney at 75 ? You can live with one kidney. A heart bypass is a major surgery. The discussion in cases of the elderly people has to be whether the surgery is worth the risk.
That's exactly the kind of discussion that always happens.

Before my mom passed earlier this year, she decided to forgo surgery that would have extended her life.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:45 PM   #157
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As a country we have made a conscious decision to provide health insurance to the poor (Medicaid). Similarly, we have made a conscious decision to provide health benefits to veterans.

A good portion of Medicare is funded by premiums paid and is a program that as a country we have made a decision to provide to the elderly.
By this argument we could say that we as a country have made a conscious decision to provide health insurance to the not-as-poor through the ACA.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:48 PM   #158
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By this argument we could say that we as a country have made a conscious decision to provide health insurance to the not-as-poor through the ACA.

Exactly!
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:52 PM   #159
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By this argument we could say that we as a country have made a conscious decision to provide health insurance to the not-as-poor through the ACA.
Yes, we made a conscious decision (that was worse than watching sausage being made) to provide financial assistance for paying for health insurance premiums for those with low incomes (by happenstance or by design).
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:02 PM   #160
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I would turn it around and ask why do those in their prime who are not poor deserve help?

I think that is a great question. I think that most 'developed' or 'high resource' countries except the US have answered this question with 'Because it is the right thing to do.' It is difficult for any individual except those who are very well off to cover the potential costs involved in the healthcare for a catastrophic or chronic illness in themselves or their children. This is especially true in the US which has the most costly and opaque healthcare system of all of these countries. And arguably the system that has strayed the farthest from what the goals of a 'healthcare system' should really be.
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