Beyond E-R

[Montecfo]

Kind of like home insurance do I really need it. I have paid a lot on 40 year of premiums and haven't got anything in return. It is all a gamble and many people through the years lost the farm to pay for their long years of life.

Homeowner's insurance is usually not optional. You can't tell the bank you are self-insuring.

And it is relatively cheap. Few people would choose to self insure.

 

[pdxgal]

Men caring for disabled wives seem especially prone to getting sick and dying before their partner. .

Recently learned on NextDoor of a murder-suicide nearby. Husband had been caring for wife with Alzheimer’s. Apparently they’d been devoted to one another, and it must’ve gotten too much to bear. Or maybe just most merciful for both. Very sad

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

I think first-to-die paid up life insurance is a better buy. Use it to replenish funds or build them. It always pays off.

Not trying to be argumentative, but the one scenario (obviously) where that's problematic is if both spouses end up needing assisted living for some period of time.

But, that's probably not one of the more likely scenarios.

We don't have a plan ourselves to be honest, so I'm reading these posts with a lot of interest.

 

[Rianne]

Not trying to be argumentative, but the one scenario (obviously) where that's problematic is if both spouses end up needing assisted living for some period of time.

But, that's probably not one of the more likely scenarios.

We don't have a plan ourselves to be honest, so I'm reading these posts with a lot of interest.

Exactly. That's why I plug in combined long-term care numbers in Firecalc. Looking at $150K/year, probably on the lower side. I have to consider taxes as well. Another reason I'm following "We're entering a golden period for fixed investing" trying to get that coupon cash flow while preserving the principle.

 

[Montecfo]

Not trying to be argumentative, but the one scenario (obviously) where that's problematic is if both spouses end up needing assisted living for some period of time.



But, that's probably not one of the more likely scenarios.



We don't have a plan ourselves to be honest, so I'm reading these posts with a lot of interest.

That is not a problem as you can borrow against the life insurance. So it can be used as needed.

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

That is not a problem as you can borrow against the life insurance. So it can be used as needed.

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that.

So, the solution would have to be life insurance that builds up a cash value? Something other than term life insurance.

 

[BarbWire]

The CCRC where my mother is required that she have a POA and a HCPOA when she moved in. She has fallen twice and we have been called. When we decided she needed more help (aides for 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening) all I had to do was call the CCRC and tell them what we wanted and they arranged for the aides and they started in a couple of days. Most of the aides have been excellent and they always show up. I don't have to worry about the aides, a real benefit of the CCRC.

You are indeed fortunate that the aides supplied/managed by the CCRC were excellent (not the case at my parents' CCRC) and that the CCRC was responsible if one called in sick, etc. Someone managing aides for an individual at home is on the spot if they get a call that the aide isn't coming into work for the next two days; the agency may or may not send a substitute.

But you said "when we decided" -- and that is key. You made decisions about levels of care, etc. The CCRC cannot/will not do that beyond calling you or calling for an ambulance. So the resident must have a "responsible person" (RP) on call.

Suppose your mother falls and breaks her hip (God fordbid). I'm curious: how does that scenario play out? Does the CCRC call you and say they're putting her in an ambulance to St Elsewhere Hospital, and the ball is now in your court? If you're not close to the hospital, does everything then transpire by phone between you and the hospital? Does the CCRC have any responsibility for / interest in her at the hospital?


Sadly in the case of the CCRC my parents were in, the resident was simply put in an ambulance, the RP was called, and the CCRC was then out of the loop. If the RP couldn't be reached right away, it was up to the hospital, not the CCRC, to continue trying. And meanwhile the elderly resident was there at the hospital, alone without an advocate.

For anyone researching a CCRC, outlining specific "what if" scenarios is key in understanding where responsibility ends and begins, and if the RP should be nearby (1 hour?) and available 24/7 by phone. We did not ask those questions when my parents went for their 9 months in a CCRC. I wish we had.

 

[Montecfo]

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that.



So, the solution would have to be life insurance that builds up a cash value? Something other than term life insurance.

Term will provide less flexibility and at some point becomes non-renewable.

 

[glenster]

To me its ALL about quality of life !

If I ever get to the point where I am bedridden and need someone else to [mod edit] <assist with my personal hygiene >I am hoping that assisted suicide will be legal and widely used. I do NOT understand the need to simply exist without living. It was not long ago that by the time you are 50 years old it was common to die...and now its 80-90-100+

If I cannot get out of bed and enjoy the fresh air - there is no more point in living except for your loved ones not wanting to say goodbye

Thats my 2 cents...

So do not buy assisted living insurance BS products and just make a point to spend as much of it as you can while you are ALIVE and able to enjoy life!

 

[NoEZmoney]

That is the bottom line, no matter where you are: someone to be your advocate and guardian angel when you are alive, and someone to "mop up" after you have died.

True. We've consulted with people who have appointed a legal trustee designated to take care of their final care issues and advocate on their behalf. My aunt and uncle had such an arrangement as they suffered severe cognitive dysfunction in their final years. Had excellent care BTW.

I suppose for us, we'd hope to arrange some legal advocate no matter where we wind up. France has excellent elder care and ombudsman services due to their healthcare laws. Maybe we could arrange and find a younger couple to be our adopted family and they'll get a settlement once we kick the bucket for having looked after our needs? Anything's possible.

 

[BarbWire]

True. We've consulted with people who have appointed a legal trustee designated to take care of their final care issues and advocate on their behalf. My aunt and uncle had such an arrangement as they suffered severe cognitive dysfunction in their final years. Had excellent care BTW.

I suppose for us, we'd hope to arrange some legal advocate no matter where we wind up. France has excellent elder care and ombudsman services due to their healthcare laws.

Very interesting. I've thought about how I'd put my "geezer team" in place, but haven't reached any conclusions. And, like you, it's complicated by the fact that I'm not sure I will be in the US (where I've been a resident for 60+ years but have no responsible family). The information about France is especially intriguing.

Maybe we need a new thread: "Your Geezer team when you have no family to rely on." I suspect we aren't the only ones thinking about this!

 

[harllee]

You are indeed fortunate that the aides supplied/managed by the CCRC were excellent (not the case at my parents' CCRC) and that the CCRC was responsible if one called in sick, etc. Someone managing aides for an individual at home is on the spot if they get a call that the aide isn't coming into work for the next two days; the agency may or may not send a substitute.

But you said "when we decided" -- and that is key. You made decisions about levels of care, etc. The CCRC cannot/will not do that beyond calling you or calling for an ambulance. So the resident must have a "responsible person" (RP) on call.

Suppose your mother falls and breaks her hip (God fordbid). I'm curious: how does that scenario play out? Does the CCRC call you and say they're putting her in an ambulance to St Elsewhere Hospital, and the ball is now in your court? If you're not close to the hospital, does everything then transpire by phone between you and the hospital? Does the CCRC have any responsibility for / interest in her at the hospital?


Sadly in the case of the CCRC my parents were in, the resident was simply put in an ambulance, the RP was called, and the CCRC was then out of the loop. If the RP couldn't be reached right away, it was up to the hospital, not the CCRC, to continue trying. And meanwhile the elderly resident was there at the hospital, alone without an advocate.

For anyone researching a CCRC, outlining specific "what if" scenarios is key in understanding where responsibility ends and begins, and if the RP should be nearby (1 hour?) and available 24/7 by phone. We did not ask those questions when my parents went for their 9 months in a CCRC. I wish we had.

The second time mother fell, the CCRC called an ambulance (fortunately nothing broken) and the CCRC immediately called my sister, the HCPOA, who lives 15 minutes away. Mother was taken to a local hospital, stayed a couple of nights and then came back to the CCRC where she went to the rehabilitation center where she stayed a couple of weeks until she could go back to her apartment with help. I don't know what would happen if one of the children could not be reached right away, unlikely that would happen since we all have the CCRC's phone number programmed in our phones and immediately answer when they call. There are 3 of us --one lives 15 minutes away, one 45 minutes away and I live about 2 hours away so we can all get there fast.

 

[BarbWire]

The second time mother fell, the CCRC called an ambulance (fortunately nothing broken) and the CCRC immediately called my sister, the HCPOA, who lives 15 minutes away. Mother was taken to a local hospital, stayed a couple of nights and then came back to the CCRC where she went to the rehabilitation center where she stayed a couple of weeks until she could go back to her apartment with help. I don't know what would happen if one of the children could not be reached right away, unlikely that would happen since we all have the CCRC's phone number programmed in our phones and immediately answer when they call. There are 3 of us --one lives 15 minutes away, one 45 minutes away and I live about 2 hours away so we can all get there fast.

So glad to hear the CCRC system worked well (went to hospital, came back to a couple of weeks of supported cared and then back to independent) and, more importantly, that your DM was OK. There is absolutely no chance that my parents' CCRC would have worked so smoothly in the same scenario (despite being "highly rated" and affiliated with a major national university.)


What is also key here is that there are three of you: important for your mother, important for the CCRC, and important for each of you because it means that no-one is 100% responsible, 24/7. What a fortunate family set-up!