Complexity of Purchasing Prescription Medications

Only two countries allow direct to consumer advertising for prescription drugs. The US and New Zealand. Such a waste of money, IMO.

Totally agree. What is the point of these ads? Do people actually march into the doctor's office and say I want the blue pill because I saw it on TV? And why does everyone of these ads have people running through a field of flowers?
 
There’s now a generic for restasis. I was initially excited about the generic after eagerly waiting for years. I was so disappointed when I found out the price was more or less the same $1,500 for 90 day supply. I suspect some type of price fixing or maybe the generic is manufactured by the same maker. Either way, it just seems so wrong.
 
There’s now a generic for restasis. I was initially excited about the generic after eagerly waiting for years. I was so disappointed when I found out the price was more or less the same $1,500 for 90 day supply. I suspect some type of price fixing or maybe the generic is manufactured by the same maker. Either way, it just seems so wrong.

The generic is sold in India for $1.20/ capsule
 
So, if we are successful in sharply limiting the ability of Big Pharma to charge high prices for recently developed and patented "wonder drugs," how do we convince Big Pharma and their stock holders to keep spending big bux on R and D? Or, could we successfully substitute research work by public labs (universities, national labs, etc.) funded exclusively by tax dollars? Or perhaps rely more on developments by research labs in other countries?

No Big Pharma CEO worth her salt is going to spend zillions on developing drugs which they'll only be able to sell at manufacturing costs + some small profit.

Not trying to defend Big Pharma here. But I am trying to understand who will fund and push research once we're successful in taking the profit motive out of it.

Would the folks in Washington be better at making allocation decisions and determining funding for drug R and D than our current private enterprise system?

I honestly dunno....... But I do think that even if the current situation sucks, we better understand the replacement before we toss it out.
 
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So, if we are successful in sharply limiting the ability of Big Pharma to charge high prices for recently developed and patented "wonder drugs," how do we convince Big Pharma and their stock holders to keep spending big bux on R and D? Or, could we successfully substitute research work by public labs (universities, national labs, etc.) funded exclusively by tax dollars? Or perhaps rely more on developments by research labs in other countries?

No Big Pharma CEO worth her salt is going to spend zillions on developing drugs which they'll only be able to sell at manufacturing costs + some small profit.

Not trying to defend Big Pharma here. But I am trying to understand who will fund and push research once we're successful in taking the profit motive out of it.

Would the folks in Washington be better at making allocation decisions and determining funding for drug R and D than our current private enterprise system?

I honestly dunno....... But I do think that even if the current situation sucks, we better understand the replacement before we toss it out.

Can we start with limiting their ability to charge high prices for drugs that are no longer under patents?
 
Can we start with limiting their ability to charge high prices for drugs that are no longer under patents?

Who is "their" in this case? The original drug developers? Domestic manufacturers who show up after patents expire to manufacture the drugs? Foreign manufacturers who may not honor the patents from the beginning?

If the high price is due to high costs involved in manufacturing and meeting USA government standards, limiting the price by government edict would likely mean that the drug wouldn't be produced and the developer would regret having spent the resources to develop it.

By "limit", are you referring to government price controls?

It's all pretty complicated.
 
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Who is "their" in this case? The original drug developers? Domestic manufacturers who show up after patents expire to manufacture the drugs? Foreign manufacturers who may not honor the patents from the beginning?

If the high price is due to high costs involved in manufacturing and meeting USA government standards, limiting the price by government edict would likely mean that the drug wouldn't be produced and the developer would regret having spent the resources to develop it.

By "limit", are you referring to government price controls?

It's all pretty complicated.

In the case of Humira, the original patent began in 1998 was suppose to expire in 2018 after 20 years. But the manufacturer brought lawsuits in the US and got its patent extended somehow for 5 more years. Humira is the #1 drug by sales in the US, the manufacturer has made billions in profits. I don't think manufacturers should be able to extend the patent beyond 20 years, 20 years is long enough for them to make huge profits.
 
[possible] PSA: For those getting a recurring prescription. OptumRx could be an excellent alternative. I'm too lazy to check if it's available to everyone, but it is in my case. We have excellent Medicare Advantage insurance, but the Rx costs are even less with OptumRx.
 
[possible] PSA: For those getting a recurring prescription. OptumRx could be an excellent alternative. I'm too lazy to check if it's available to everyone, but it is in my case. We have excellent Medicare Advantage insurance, but the Rx costs are even less with OptumRx.

I looked up Optum RX and it looks like it can only be used by people with United Health Care insurance. I have my supplements with UHC so if I ever need an ongoing prescription I will look into them. Fortunately for me at age 70 I take no prescription drugs! But my DH makes up for it as he takes very expensive medications.
 
In the case of Humira, the original patent began in 1998 was suppose to expire in 2018 after 20 years. But the manufacturer brought lawsuits in the US and got its patent extended somehow for 5 more years. Humira is the #1 drug by sales in the US, the manufacturer has made billions in profits. I don't think manufacturers should be able to extend the patent beyond 20 years, 20 years is long enough for them to make huge profits.

My understanding is that there is much more to it than just the patents in some of these cases. What information about the drug and its manufacturing process must AbbVie provide to competitors who want to manufacture generic Humira? Without a large "show and tell," it could be extremely expensive to gear up, pass all government regulations and go into production.

I wonder what level of detail must AbbVie provide and what qualifications must potential manufacturing competitors have to obtain it?

In other words, for difficult and complicated drugs to manufacture, how will our government get past the "data dump" issues regarding the former patent holder being compelled to help competitors get up and running?
 
My understanding is that there is much more to it than just the patents in some of these cases. What information about the drug and its manufacturing process must AbbVie provide to competitors who want to manufacture generic Humira? Without a large "show and tell," it could be extremely expensive to gear up, pass all government regulations and go into production.

I wonder what level of detail must AbbVie provide and what qualifications must potential manufacturing competitors have to obtain it?

In other words, for difficult and complicated drugs to manufacture, how will our government get past the "data dump" issues regarding the former patent holder being compelled to help competitors get up and running?

I don't think AbbVie will have to tell the manufacturers of the generic Humira anything. I understand there are 5 companies in the U.S. right now that have perfected the biosimilar of Humira and are ready to start manufacturing the drug. Some are already doing it in other countries. The only hold up is that AbbieVie somehow got their patent extended by another 5 years. AbbieVie has made $200 BILLION dollars on Humira, which is just obscene. They have fought tooth and nail and filed many lawsuits to keep generics out of the US. They got their 20 years of exclusive patents, it is way past time for those patents to expire so there can be generics. Yes I am bitter about this. My DH is paying $8000 out of pocket in this year alone to obtain Humira.
 
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So, if we are successful in sharply limiting the ability of Big Pharma to charge high prices for recently developed and patented "wonder drugs," how do we convince Big Pharma and their stock holders to keep spending big bux on R and D? Or, could we successfully substitute research work by public labs (universities, national labs, etc.) funded exclusively by tax dollars? Or perhaps rely more on developments by research labs in other countries?

No Big Pharma CEO worth her salt is going to spend zillions on developing drugs which they'll only be able to sell at manufacturing costs + some small profit.

Not trying to defend Big Pharma here. But I am trying to understand who will fund and push research once we're successful in taking the profit motive out of it.

Would the folks in Washington be better at making allocation decisions and determining funding for drug R and D than our current private enterprise system?

I honestly dunno....... But I do think that even if the current situation sucks, we better understand the replacement before we toss it out.

I get your point. But, based on the drug prices in different countries, it sure seems like American consumers are being asked to bear the burden of the R&D costs while consumers around the world get the benefits.
 
I get your point. But, based on the drug prices in different countries, it sure seems like American consumers are being asked to bear the burden of the R&D costs while consumers around the world get the benefits.
Don't fall for the false choice argument. The US never signed up to fund research for the entire world and Big Pharma spends more money on advertising here (not allowed anywhere else in the world except New Zealand) than they do on research. In sum, bogus argument.
 
Don't fall for the false choice argument. The US never signed up to fund research for the entire world and Big Pharma spends more money on advertising here (not allowed anywhere else in the world except New Zealand) than they do on research. In sum, bogus argument.

And why do we in the US pay significantly more for drugs that are no longer under patent?
 
Don't fall for the false choice argument. The US never signed up to fund research for the entire world and Big Pharma spends more money on advertising here (not allowed anywhere else in the world except New Zealand) than they do on research. In sum, bogus argument.

How much would it reduce the cost of drugs in the U.S. if all advertising were eliminated? In the U.S. alone drug companies spend over 7 BILLION dollars per year in advertising. Eliminate that and I bet the cost of drugs goes down significant. No one should ask their doctor for a drug just because they see it advertised on TV.
 
I get your point. But, based on the drug prices in different countries, it sure seems like American consumers are being asked to bear the burden of the R&D costs while consumers around the world get the benefits.

I agree. Peeves me too.
 
Don't fall for the false choice argument. The US never signed up to fund research for the entire world and Big Pharma spends more money on advertising here (not allowed anywhere else in the world except New Zealand) than they do on research. In sum, bogus argument.

I think the view that the rest of the world is taking advantage of US R&D without paying for it has merit. The evidence is prices for the same medicines are higher in the US than elsewhere.

However, it’s not the only explanation. The pharma industry has successfully engaged in regulatory capture, enabling it to limit competition for extended periods of time. There’s also a profound conflict of interest, as drug manufacturers pay physicians to write prescriptions for their products. In addition, the largest payer, Medicare, doesn’t negotiate price and pays list.

Which has a bigger impact on price? Difficult to say, but if I had to bet it would be Medicare, followed closely by regulatory capture.
 
I think the view that the rest of the world is taking advantage of US R&D without paying for it has merit. The evidence is prices for the same medicines are higher in the US than elsewhere.

However, it’s not the only explanation. The pharma industry has successfully engaged in regulatory capture, enabling it to limit competition for extended periods of time. There’s also a profound conflict of interest, as drug manufacturers pay physicians to write prescriptions for their products. In addition, the largest payer, Medicare, doesn’t negotiate price and pays list.

Which has a bigger impact on price? Difficult to say, but if I had to bet it would be Medicare, followed closely by regulatory capture.
I totally agree. Congress is constantly grubbing for money because every two years Congress persons have to raise and spend millions to keep a $176,000 job. One easy way to raise money is to take corporate cash and screw constituents who can't begin to understand what is going on.
 
I agree too. When the Medicare part D was created in 2003 and enacted in 2006, Medicare was not allowed to negotiate drug prices. Other government agencies can, such as the VA and Medicaid, with huge cost savings.

According to Wikipedia, the Congressman who steered the Medicare bill through Congress retired right after that, and subsequently got a $2M/year job as president of PhRMA. Hmmm… The same article cited sources estimating that the govt alone could have saved over half a trillion these past 20 years if Medicare had been able to negotiate drug prices.

Regarding research and development costs, I’m somewhat skeptical. Many “new” drugs are tweaks on old ones, resulting in a new 20 year patent. I had to learn so many brands and types of intermediate and long-acting insulin working in the hospital over the years, and I treated relatively few diabetic patients as a pediatrician.

The biggest cost to the companies is probably the three phases of clinical trials needed to bring medications to market. That is quite expensive.
 
But Medicare has this dumb rule that says you can't use drug manufacture's cards once you are on Medicare.

To be clear, this is not a Medicare rule, dumb or otherwise. This is due to federal law. There is an Anti-Kickback Statute that makes it illegal for a company to give something of value (like a prescription discount) in order to get more business that would be reimburses by a federal healthcare program. This statute has a valid purpose but there should be exception (IMHO) for drug prescription cards that are available to everyone else.

For some people, it can be cheaper to use a manufacturer's discount program rather than use Part D benefits at all.

For people in the coverage gap there is a Medicare Coverage Gap Discount program that makes manufacturer discounts available to for some drugs for people in the coverage gap. Here is the page talking about all this:

https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Prescription-Drug-Coverage/PrescriptionDrugCovGenIn/Pharma

Anyway, TL; DR

Medicare is not being dumb or mean or anything else is not allowing drug discount programs. Blame a federal statute.
 
To be clear, this is not a Medicare rule, dumb or otherwise. This is due to federal law. ..........Medicare is not being dumb or mean or anything else is not allowing drug discount programs. Blame a federal statute.
Those laws and statures are written by lobbyists. It is not an oversight or unintended consequence.
 
OK not a dumb Medicare rule, but a dumb federal rule. But isn't Medicare a federal program? In any event before he went on Medicare my DH could get Humira for $5 a month by using the manufacture's discount card. Now that DH is on Medicare he can no longer use the card and Humira will cost him $8000 year. It is an awful dumb rule.
 
$75 during which coverage stage? For 30 or 90 pills?


Each year I go with the Part D plan which offers the best coverage for Xarelto or Eliquis (they're priced and covered almost identically.) This has usually meant changing insurance companies each year, a pita. Switching from one drug to the other wouldn't help.

I just spent $615 yesterday for 90 Xarelto as I still had to cover my annual deductible. Retail would have been about $1,500. Next fill, it'll be about $200. Then I'll go into the doughnut hole and it heads back up into the $500 range. If I ever hit the catastrophic coverage range, it becomes cheap. For the year, I'm estimating my total cost for Xarelto will in the $mid-teens.

I asked doc about ordering the generic equivalent from an international source (such as manufactured in India). He said he couldn't recommend doing that or warn against it as he has seen no reliable data showing that there is no risk of receiving meds that are lower/higher potency or just placebos. But he also hasn't seen data showing that there were known risks. He didn't say yes. He didn't say no. But he made it clear he wasn't part of the decision and his prescription would continue to be written for brand name Xarelto.



Xarelto is such an important drug ( risk of stroke without it) for those taking it that I wouldn’t want to risk an off brand either. I can see why the doctor doesn’t want to change. It’s one of those drugs where you really don’t ever know if it’s doing its job..you can’t really test it. If it’s too weak you’re risking stroke, too strong and you’re risking bleeding.
 
OK not a dumb Medicare rule, but a dumb federal rule. But isn't Medicare a federal program? In any event before he went on Medicare my DH could get Humira for $5 a month by using the manufacture's discount card. Now that DH is on Medicare he can no longer use the card and Humira will cost him $8000 year. It is an awful dumb rule.

Yes, Medicare is a federal program. And it isn't a "rule" that we are talking about. It is a statute passed by Congress. Rules and statutes aren't the same thing. Like many statutes, this one actually has a purpose. It is to stop Kickbacks. You don't want companies giving kickbacks in order to entice the federal government to do business with the company.

Let's say there is a medicine where the cost for it would be $3000 for it. The patient is not in the donut hole yet and so Medicare pays most of it. The patient however can get a prescription card from the manufacturer and pay $200 for the medicine. Now, on the surface this is good for the patient and for Medicare. Yay!

Now, let's imagine there is a competitor medicine which costs, say, $1500. And, let's imagine that this medicine is better than the $3000 medicine. It is more effective with less side effects. If the choice is between $3000 and $1500 it is a win/win for the patient and Medicare for the $1500 medicine to be used. It is less money and better.

But, the second medicine has no prescription card. But the patient knows the first medication has a prescription card and Medicare knows it too. So the patient and Medicare want the first medicine because it is so much less expensive (with the card). But, the patient is now getting a less effective medicine.

The purpose of the statute is theoretically (among other things) to stop this. The idea is to not have the choice distorted by the prescription card. If the manufacturer can get along with the amount from the discounted prescription card then maybe the manufacturer should just charge less for the medicine.

The point is that the statute does have a legitimate reason for the rule. In an ideal world though he solution is not to have Medicare recipients get prescription cards. Prescription cards can distort drug pricing. For example, I was recently prescribed something (I only had to take it once) that was almost $200 without a card. I would have paid it all since I hadn't met my Part D deductible. With the card it was $35. So, people who don't have Medicare get the medication for $35. The manufacturer knows that Medicare recipients can't get the medication for $35. So the manufacturer can give the $35 cards for non-Medicare recipients knowing Medicare recipients would pay far more. Without the cards, perhaps the cost would be spread out more evenly among others. Also, even people eligible for prescription cards don't always have them because no one tells them about the cards. That is also a problem.

The real solution to the problem here is not so much to let Medicare recipients use prescription cards. It is for Medicare to be able to negotiate drug prices like regular insurers can do.
 
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