Diet Wars

[mickj]

Gary Taubes has a new book out. I recently heard him interviewed on a podcast and thought it was a good refresher...


The Case for Keto: Rethinking Weight Control and the Science and Practice of Low-Carb/High-Fat Eating

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XXFHP9S...JW06MKJ01P0Z27

[twaddle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunnyOne Eating on auto-pilot is dangerous unless you've developed really good habits. It's interesting, to me, that eating on auto-pilot seemed to have worked well for decades and decades until the most recent ones? Did it become dangerous with the advent of food prepared and served more often out of the home than inside the home? I am thinking so, other thoughts?

I try to view food through an evolutionary lens -- we've been optimized to eat in a certain way for a lonnnnng time. Not decades, not centuries, but millennia.

Our current environment is mismatched in several ways: availability, quantity, composition, seasonality, and "innovation."

I think innovation is probably the biggest issue. Foods designed to be hyperpalatable that are unlike anything we'd bump into in the wild.

In terms of the mismatch that causes, consider a bottle of Coke. Basically pure sugar water, right? We can process sugar pretty well, but we'd never find it in that form or concentration in nature.

The result is that we get a hit of nutrients that our body isn't well equipped to handle. It doesn't trigger our satiety system *at all*. Evolutionarily, we'd normally find sweet foods in the summer. Pluck them off a tree and digest them along with a ton of fiber.

Fiber is high-satiety. Our body "gets it."

Which is why JERF (just-eat-real-food) seems like a good approach to me.

[bloom2708]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickj Gary Taubes has a new book out. I recently heard him interviewed on a podcast and thought it was a good refresher... The Case for Keto: Rethinking Weight Control and the Science and Practice of Low-Carb/High-Fat Eating https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XXFHP9S...JW06MKJ01P0Z27

There are some good youtube videos debunking Taube. He references extremely old/obscure science. It takes work to research. When researched, it is junk science. I am a "keto is dangerous" person. It works by shutting off your appetite and burning your body fat/muscle because the body is starving.

[twaddle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloom2708 I am a "keto is dangerous" person. It works by shutting off your appetite and burning your body fat/muscle because the body is starving.

I haven't read Taubes' latest. You're basically right that ketosis is part of a "starvation" response. The reason we make ketones is to feed the brain when there's no glucose.

Yeah, you can breakdown both fat and protein, but if you eat plenty of protein, and your carb intake is >= 20g/d, then you won't lose muscle mass.

Carb intake > ~120g/d and you won't trigger ketosis much, but it still kicks in for everybody a little bit when they sleep. So, dangerous?

[bloom2708]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaddle I haven't read Taubes' latest. You're basically right that ketosis is part of a "starvation" response. The reason we make ketones is to feed the brain when there's no glucose. Yeah, you can breakdown both fat and protein, but if you eat plenty of protein, and your carb intake is >= 20g/d, then you won't lose muscle mass. Carb intake > ~120g/d and you won't trigger ketosis much, but it still kicks in for everybody a little bit when they sleep. So, dangerous?

Dangerous because it is very popular and people think they can do it long term.

[mpeirce]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloom2708 Dangerous because it is very popular and people think they can do it long term.

Sadly, this is turning ugly - as “diet wars” often do.

I’ll just note that I’ve been doing low carb / keto for over 10 years and my doctor thinks I’m doing fine.

[braumeister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpeirce Sadly, this is turning ugly - as “diet wars” often do.

All diet threads turn ugly; much like discussions involving politics or religion. Sad but true.

[bloom2708]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpeirce Sadly, this is turning ugly - as “diet wars” often do. I’ll just note that I’ve been doing low carb / keto for over 10 years and my doctor thinks I’m doing fine.

Anyone with a differing opinion at all is "turning ugly". Sad state of affairs. Nobody has said anything ugly.

[bloom2708]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braumeister All diet threads turn ugly; much like discussions involving politics or religion. Sad but true.

What part was "ugly"? How can a discussion so easily offend?

[flintnational]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braumeister All diet threads turn ugly; much like discussions involving politics or religion. Sad but true.

To avoid strife, I have all potential new friends fill out a questionnaire listing their political, church and diet affiliations.

[mickj]

Also the american diabetes association has promoted low carb as a good option for type II diabetes:

https://www.dietdoctor.com/american-...diet-as-option

[twaddle]

Stay calm. My assumption here is that ER folks are way more rational than most.

There have been long-term studies of keto, mostly in the context of epilepsy treatments, and it's (mostly) fine.

When I first heard of "keto" I was blown-away that people were essentially biohacking, but I think it's cool to at least experiment with it if you haven't tried it.

I found some aspects very cool, including quicker recovery after running, but a lot of it may have been colored by thinking I was a radical biohacker at the time.

[bloom2708]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flintnational To avoid strife, I have all potential new friends fill out a questionnaire listing their political, church and diet affiliations.

New friends since implementing: -1

I kid, I kid.

It is rough out there. I could be canceled for just joking about something so serious. Doh, I did it again.

[Crewer]

While I'm not low carb I will say Fung's book The Obesity Code made a big impression on me about how snacking - my own included - is so different than when I was a kid. Maybe we sometimes - rarely - had popcorn for an evening snack but other than that we never had after dinner snacks or even after school snacks.

I remember the first time my father took me to McD some time in the 50s. What a treat and unusual thing. But the burgers, fries, and shakes were tiny compared to now!

[ncbill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crewer While I'm not low carb I will say Fung's book The Obesity Code made a big impression on me about how snacking - my own included - is so different than when I was a kid. Maybe we sometimes - rarely - had popcorn for an evening snack but other than that we never had after dinner snacks or even after school snacks. I remember the first time my father took me to McD some time in the 50s. What a treat and unusual thing. But the burgers, fries, and shakes were tiny compared to now!

That was my takeaway from the book as well...no snacking.

Plus "true" (24 & 48 hour) fasts can be better than intermittent fasting.

And choose the smallest/cheapest option if eating out..e.g. junior burger, small fry, etc.

[harllee]

The amount of food American restaurants serve these days is just shocking. We have been doing taking out and my DH and I share one take out meal and have enough left over for the next day's lunch.

[twaddle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncbill no snacking.

That's great if you can pull it off.

I realized I cannot. Somewhat of a nervous habit, I guess. So I made two adjustments:

1) I try to keep busy, ideally somewhere aware from snacks. I find that if I'm immersed in a project, I don't snack. I don't eat at all.

2) When I snack, I go for high-satiety snacks. Salami, cheese, nuts, etc.

Seems to work pretty well. Much better than snacking on chips, cookies, crackers, baked-goods, etc which do nothing to fill me up or slow me down.

[6miths]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloom2708 There are some good youtube videos debunking Taube. He references extremely old/obscure science. It takes work to research. When researched, it is junk science. I am a "keto is dangerous" person. It works by shutting off your appetite and burning your body fat/muscle because the body is starving.

I think Taubes did a great service by making us ask some tough questions and think about the advice we were giving and why we find ourselves in the prediciment we are in with respect to obesity, metabolic syndome and Type 2 diabetes. I think his explanations as to why he cites very old and obscure research are justified. The sad truth is that there is very little good science in the area of nutrition but many, many experts. I wasn't impressed with his new book and it seemed much more like jumping on the band wagon than his previous works. That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with fasting or being in ketosis now and then. It's what we were designed for. I think the bigger issue is not messing up one's body to begin with.

[SunnyOne]

An astute person I know refers to this country's preoccupation with eating habits, food rituals & dieting as "American Food Fetishism", lol

I didn't fully appreciate what he meant until I visited Italy. Fantastic food, quite small portions by American standards and enjoyed over conversation...not much eaten on the run or in disposable containers. I don't recall any food advertising while there. No promos like the Shamrock Shake for example HAHAHAHA.

You all are right, food, sadly has become tribal, much like politics and other arenas. What drives this? the need to identify as such? to buy certain products and display their labels through speech or behavior? I don't get it. I'm a free agent...so lol

[Helen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaddle @Crewer, I find your approach very compelling, and it's well supported by evidence. Sounds like you're getting plenty of protein, and that's where vegans often run into a problem (that can result in being a bit frail).

More and more athletes are turning to a plant based diet, Venus and Serena Williams and Arnold Schwarzenegger all follow a whole food, plant based diet.

Arnold and Jackie Chan were involved in the documentary, "The Game Changers" which focuses on athletes and plant based diets. There is some very interesting discussion on the difference between animal protein and plant protein.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7455754/