Family member w/bad diagnosis yet financially disinterested

[HarveyS]

... then by God I'm going to continue to advocate for getting involved to the point I can do so.

I'm sorry you are in this difficult situation.
You are active in our community and you asked friends for their opinion. Sure, strangers and SGOTIs, but friends nonetheless. You received many opinions from your friends who have been thru similar situations and opinions from others on what they would do in your shoes. Yet, you feel so strongly about this that you are choosing to ignore all that and "by God I'm going to continue".

Do as you must, but please take a moment to consider the consequences. You may end up negatively changing (at best) or loosing (at worst) your relationship with your Mother and adult sister. I can't see a path where continuing to push this rock up this hill builds your relationship.

Best of luck to you, and healing prayers for your sister.

 

[EastWest Gal]

I skimmed through this thread. I saw lots of discussion about medical bills and surprise medical bills. As of January 1, 2022, the No Surprises Act protects most people against out of network charges. Before that, 33 states had varying amounts of protection against surprise medical bills.

What I haven't seen discussed is how the 6-8 weeks off of work will affect her ability to pay rent and utilities. But I think it is up to her to seek help if she needs it.

My husband has two brothers who are probably living paycheck to paycheck, barely getting by. He hasn't had much contact with them in the past 25 years, which is fine with him. If they end up homeless, DH honestly wouldn't care.

Do not worry about the money when your sister is facing cancer. It might make your mom and sister think that you need to rethink your priorities, which will cause them to turn a deaf ear to anything you have to offer.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I wouldn’t be trying to micromanage my adult kids in this way let alone a sibling. Adults get to make their own decisions. I would volunteer to help as you have done but once rebuked I would mind my own business. Your sister can ask for your help if she changes her mind. I am sure she already knows you disapprove of how she is living her life. Actually you sound way too invested and overly angry. Not your circus or your monkeys.

 

[Bryan Barnfellow]

I'm sorry to know that you are going through this and very sorry for your sister, of course. My own, younger sister died from cancer three years ago and it was awful.

Very interesting discussion, covering many points of view. Mine is this: You definitely don't want to be in a position of feeling that you abandoned her, if/when something terribly final happens. So, perhaps you could decide now to

1. Offer (with your DW) a lot of moral support and comfort during this time.
2. Decide now, again with your DW, how much you might be able to spend comfortably to help her. (perhaps a monthly limit).
3. Given that she will likely end up on Medicaid and be given other forms of support, use your limited funds to help her in in ways that the organized support avenues cannot: namely, a nice lunch out from time to time (when/if she can bear it), a ride in the countryside, a nice shopping trip (with a cash limit) that will brighten her day.
4. Occasional flowers, something sweet to eat, etc.
5. Pay for low key parties for her and her, family, and friends to celebrate milestones in the cancer treatment process.

Those kinds of things allow you to help uniquely and enormously, while ensuring that your own financial life doesn't crater. And, you can look back on these things knowing that you did indeed help in the only ways you realistically could do.

-BB

 

[target2019]

It sounds to me like Sis and Mom are not looking for your input at this time.

 

[Venturer]

I was in a similar situation with my older 1/2 sister. She got cancer and had always been a free wheeling spirit. Her church would help her a lot of times when she would get in financial trouble. She passed away last year in April, and there were a lot of unpaid hospital and DR. bills that her mother and brothers were worried about. I told them to wait it out and it would all work out. It ended up that the medical bills were "written off" and no one had to come to the rescue. Chill out and just be there for emotional support, prayer, or a shoulder to cry on if needed but don't let this drive a wedge between family and you.

 

[24601NoMore]

Hey, gang. Appreciate all the replies.

That said, I really was not looking for criticism of my perspective on this, or to be told I'm "controlling". It's anything but that, but I really don't want to debate that point.

What I WAS looking for, and which some provided, was folks to share similar experiences and how THEY handled things.

I think the thread has run it's course. Appreciate everyone's input.

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

I skimmed through this thread. I saw lots of discussion about medical bills and surprise medical bills. As of January 1, 2022, the No Surprises Act protects most people against out of network charges. Before that, 33 states had varying amounts of protection against surprise medical bills.

What I haven't seen discussed is how the 6-8 weeks off of work will affect her ability to pay rent and utilities. But I think it is up to her to seek help if she needs it.

My husband has two brothers who are probably living paycheck to paycheck, barely getting by. He hasn't had much contact with them in the past 25 years, which is fine with him. If they end up homeless, DH honestly wouldn't care.

Do not worry about the money when your sister is facing cancer. It might make your mom and sister think that you need to rethink your priorities, which will cause them to turn a deaf ear to anything you have to offer.

In California she would likely be eligible to State Disability Insurance. It’s for temporary disability from being able to work up to a year and pays approximately 66% of income and not taxed.
Do other states not have this?

 

[24601NoMore]

In California she would likely be eligible to State Disability Insurance. It’s for temporary disability from being able to work up to a year and pays approximately 66% of income and not taxed.
Do other states not have this?

Michigan does appear to have something, but you can't have more than $3,000 total in all asset accounts including retirement - so, that would disqualify her..

Unfortunately, her work does not have Short-Term Disability. Only Long-Term, which kicks in at 6 weeks.

 

[ncbill]

For some denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Buried my youngest aunt just a few years ago.

Despite a family history of breast cancer she'd never go to the doctor...thought any type of regular checkups (including mammograms) were just schemes to line their pockets.

Developed severe back pain and was eventually scheduled for spinal surgery...doc thought osteoporosis necessitated spinal fusion.

Was literally on the table, sedated, when the surgeon called it off & sent her up to oncology where she got her terminal breast cancer diagnosis.

With so much bone involvement the Hospice people just called it bone cancer.

At least it wasn't long after that...dead ~4 months later.

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

Michigan does appear to have something, but you can't have more than $3,000 total in all asset accounts including retirement - so, that would disqualify her..

Unfortunately, her work does not have Short-Term Disability. Only Long-Term, which kicks in at 6 weeks.

That’s weird about assets counting.
California’s SDI is something that employees/employer pay into each month- unless covered under a different plan meeting specific criteria. It’s not a means tested program other than having a doctor say you must be off work.
Women are entitled to 6 weeks SDI for maternity leave. More if medically necessary.

 

[pacergal]

OP--
You asked for real life experiences we may have had:
Three of DH immediate family members all experienced deadly medical diagnoses and either had no work or limited work, no financial back up at all. What we did/could do without financially harming ourselves:
Allowed them to live with us short term one time, less than a month, while we helped get them elsewhere ( two ended up in hospice, one drug affected homeless, left safety net housing)
Connected them to social and medical resources
Helped with groceries when they were either homeless by choice or in subsidized housing.

We did not pay any medical or other bills they were responsible for. I knew they would either get discharged or written off, or they would end up homeless again. All three of them eventually passed on from their illnesses. We knew we had done the best we could at the time.
It would have been far worse for us to over extend our finances to help them, as they all remained virtually penniless and we bore no responsibility for their bills.

Best of luck to you and best wishes for your sisters health outcome.

 

[pacergal]

OP--
You asked for real life experiences we may have had:
Three of DH immediate family members all experienced deadly medical diagnoses and either had no work or limited work, no financial back up at all. What we did/could do without financially harming ourselves:
Allowed them to live with us short term one time, less than a month, while we helped get them elsewhere ( two ended up in hospice, one drug affected homeless, left safety net housing)
Connected them to social and medical resources
Helped with groceries when they were either homeless by choice or in subsidized housing.

We did not pay any medical or other bills they were responsible for. I knew they would either get discharged or written off, or they would end up homeless again. All three of them eventually passed on from their illnesses. We knew we had done the best we could at the time.
It would have been far worse for us to over extend our finances to help them, as they all remained virtually penniless and we bore no responsibility for their bills.

Best of luck to you and best wishes for your sisters health outcome.

 

[Paulz]

I was raised to be a good Christian person and help those in need..so if I can't even help my little sis during her time of most need, what kind of jerk would I be?

I know how this is going to sound, but I would say not only are you NOT helping her, you are hurting her. Sure, you kicked the closest can down the road for her and she's good for the immediate timeframe, but what is the real result? She knows that you are her safety net, and she needs to take no responsibility because your money is her money. Heaven forbid if the cancer returns in a few years, you'd better be there again because now you established you are her provider. You'll need to be there for her financial needs forever!

Consider Proverbs 6:6-11, Prov 30:25. I know you are thinking of 1 Timothy 5:8, but I would say you have provided by offering wise council over the years and your services with her current diagnosis. I would also say to consider your wife. Are you undercutting your wife's future stability in favor of your sister? You are a good man by offering acts of service, but don't destabilize you and your wife's future for someone that can't be bothered saving your free money.

 

[NoEZmoney]

A Frustrating Experience...

It's going to run its course and having been through this with relatives myself, you have to take a cleansing breath and let her be. She'll rack up billing and if she survives, declare bankruptcy and insolvency. Hopefully, she'll get a credit counselor or social worker/advocate to help negotiate settlements or reduction in payments.

We had tried to assist some relatives in similar situations and were used and ignored. I cut off the cash and offered advice to no avail. It's hard but you can't let someone steal your life, your retirement, your time.

I felt like being a lifeguard who kept tossing a life-saving device and the person kept running for the deep end after each rescue. It sucks your energy and makes for a miserable experience.

It's hard, I know but you have to set limits esp. for those who don't seem to care.

 

[frances]

Not to be negative here but it sounds a little to me like OP is not only concerned about dear sister's running up a large set bills she can't pay but is ALSO worried about mom bankrupting herself (and subsequently using up OP's possible inheritance) on sister's bills.

Maybe the way to approach mom about it is to remind mom that she has limited finances and no way to replenish them. Further, remind mom that sister's decisions to date are her own and mom needs to protect her own finances for her own eventuality. Also let mom know in no uncertain terms that OP and his wife have to protect themselves financially as well and therefore unless sister and mom are interested in financial guidance ONLY from OP that will be all that can be offered.

 

[Crabbyjerry]

I have an older sister who is completely irresponsible with money, and has never done a thing to take care of herself or pay her bills. She also wanted to "be happy" in her work. She has a university education and absolutely no impairments or disabilities that would have prevented her from working to support herself.

To the best of my knowledge she currently lives (in another state) in government supported housing, and receives all sorts of tax-payer benefits re: food, medical care, etc. I really don't know, because I long ago realized that the old adage is true - "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink."

I would never in a million years do the same thing in your shoes, and I doubt that very many people would. Your sister is an adult, and as such it is not your responsibility to pay her bills or try to control the choices she makes now.

I will hasten to add, from my vantage point as a cancer survivor, the only thing she needs to focus on right now is getting better. Frankly, worrying about whether or not a surgery is covered at this point is beside the point. Is it going to save her life? Is she supposed to decline to have it if it can save her life, but isn't covered?

Back when I got my cancer diagnosis, it was all I could do to remember to BREATHE for the next many weeks/months. Your sister is terrified right now, believe me. You can either be her big brother and provide emotional support as she goes through this, or you can be the guy who is "always right," try to take control of the whole situation, and thereby alienate her and your mother at a time when they are already stressed beyond belief with fear and worry.

The last thing I will say is that I cannot wrap my head around the fact that her medical plan actually provided you with her plan information. That is so far over the line, and breaks so many boundaries, it must be unethical, if not downright illegal for them to do that.

. I usually just read and not post, however this was a well spoken post and the last quote is what made me reply. Unless we missed something, I don’t know how any of that info was forwarded. I ask my wife many times to call for different things and she ends up handing me the phone saying they won’t talk to her, so I’m baffled how that happened. Surprised nobody else picked up on that yet. Definitely not a good situation they are going through and wish the sister best wishes for a speedy recovery.

 

[Sondari]

Offer Your Love Only

Money is a lot easier to fret out loud about than the possibility of a family member dying. Every person, including your sister, has to live their own story. You cannot do that for her. She has made her choices and will continue to do so regardless of how much you bully her. Back up, take a deep breath, and remember that she needs only your kindness and support right now. You say that you’re a Christian; offer compassion.

 

[Retired Expat]

.

Knowing her the way I do, I suspected she probably has no idea whatsoever what she's covered for, not covered for, how to work within the rules of her healthcare plan, etc. And it turns that not only was I right, but I can't seem to get through to ANYONE including our Mom as to how important it's going to be to start caring about these things, lest she find herself at the wrong end of an unexpected medical bill that could be tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars - which she would never be able to pay.

The expression, “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink!” Comes to mind.

We all have likely encountered this , we being the financially prudent, planners, and capable when dealing with those who “JUST DON’T GET IT!” You can only do your best and then start taking emotional steps back so their failures don’t effect you as much. Unless you can find a way to structure a trust to protect your mom yet still allow her to help your sister.

I was able to convert a property my father had into a rental business so upon his passing it could be sold as a 1031 exchange so my sisters wouldn’t spend it and instead had a steady income. Not a fortune in rental but still 2x their SS so I don’t need to worry about them

 

[NoEZmoney]

Insurance companies don't communicate details well

Regarding Insurance companies -- two things we've encountered.

Before the ACA, I had a cancer diagnosis and the stress was distracting. But I double-checked with my insurance co making sure everything I was about to receive treatment wise ( from pre-surgery, labs, OR anesthesiology, hospital, etc..) was pre-approved, in-network, and no billing surprises. Insurer said I was good to go and all was covered in network.

Well about 5 days in recovery, I get a couple calls from hospital billing saying claims were denied. In my pain-med fog I tried to find out the problems. Turns out I had only had insurance for 22 months and not the full two year period so BY LAW the insurer could hold claims pending review for pre-existing conditions. Had to sign waivers with my docs to let them look at my 5 years health records. Took about 4 months but things got back to normal. Thanks to ACA, the pre-existing clause isn't as big an issue as it once was.

NOW TODAY -- DW is hassling with insurer over a really expensive MRI series because it was in-network and covered BUT they have something called negotiated outstanding billing?? She checked prior to getting scanned and insurer said everything was in-network, covered, and we were good. Well the hospital is charging a huge amount above the normal fees. Insurance company has gotten a lawyer that we have the name/number, email and anytime we get a call from the hospital we give them that information.

So if anyone thinks the insurance companies and hospitals are good about giving you necessary details to understand what billing arrangements, fees, etc will be, you really really need to take another look before you leap.

Wife now needs more scans, she's checked other options and asked upfront what fees are listed and what in-network costs will be. She's going to stand-alone imaging center that charges about 40-t0-60% less than the hospital imaging centers do.

American healthcare is a racket and they count on the lassitude / indifference of the populace to not ask too many questions. Non-profit in name only.

 

[splitwdw]

I wish the best for your sister. I also wish the best for you. You are exactly like your sister, won't listen.

 

[travelover]

........ You are exactly like your sister, won't listen.

 

[Buckeye]

Definitely wait to pay medical bills. Paying for her bankruptcy lawyer after it's over may be the best use of your funds. Also, it's not unusual for there to be hardship write-offs or low negotiated payments that may stretch out for many, many years (like $50 per month to pay off huge bills). Paying something can keep balances from going to collections.

If she gets sued for non-payment, she needs to be sure to respond so she doesn't suddenly see her paycheck being garnished because of a judgement.

The upside is this is happening early in the year and she can make good use of hitting her deductible.