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09-24-2010, 10:04 AM
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#61
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 4,946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
What's to keep the insurance companies from selling the child policies but at say $10 or $20K per year and still complying with the law?
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Nothing. I would normally say 'competition', but that may be an alien concept to the insurers.
I suspect that rather than simply have their actuaries compute new rate tables taking the new child insurable population into consideration, which would lead to bad press for yet another rate increase, they went for the 'outrage' option, with the largest insurers opting to drop the policies and point to the PPACA as the cause.
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09-24-2010, 10:18 AM
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#62
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Paquette
Nothing. I would normally say 'competition', but that may be an alien concept to the insurers.
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Competition works well for controlling prices, if the seller actually wants to sell. The insurance companies would be forced to provide a product they don't want to provide, so I don't think any amount of competition will help. It will be interesting to see how the government handles that issue.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
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09-24-2010, 11:20 AM
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#63
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,483
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I for one am waiting to see what the Supreme Court rules in regards to the constitutionailty of the HealthCare bill........apparently there are several cases working their way up the appellate court side at this time.
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)
This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
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09-24-2010, 11:45 AM
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#64
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude
I for one am waiting to see what the Supreme Court rules in regards to the constitutionailty of the HealthCare bill........apparently there are several cases working their way up the appellate court side at this time.
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If they can rule that corporations and unions have Constitutional rights and that private property can seized by eminent domain for private redevelopment projects benefiting developers, it appears that anything goes. And I'll leave it at that lest it get political.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
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09-24-2010, 12:30 PM
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#65
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,774
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Health care anecdotes that prove nothing:
At a medical center last week, I overheard a superelderly woman in a wheelchair talking loudly about her angiogram and other tests. I turned to my daughter and said, "Promise me you won't let anyone do an angiogram on me if I live that long."
On the news discussion re the health care, an anchor asked if prices would go up and the reporter excitedly said yes, but you'll have so much more coverage!
Read a story in the local metro paper quoting people who said the new insurance programs will be great because pre-existing conditions will be covered, so they won't even need to get insurance until they need medical care.
Finally, my family members (see grifting thread) who don't have health insurance will never get health insurance, no matter how cheap or expensive. They just don't want to pay for it.
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
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09-24-2010, 02:33 PM
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#66
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 150
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Let just have universal healthcare and end this controversy. I don't hear any countries that have universal healthcare talk about their healthcare problems and try to repeal their healthcare system and replace it with employer provided private insurance.
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09-24-2010, 03:16 PM
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#67
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huusom
Let just have universal healthcare and end this controversy. I don't hear any countries that have universal healthcare talk about their healthcare problems and try to repeal their healthcare system and replace it with employer provided private insurance.
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Try google
Sentenced to death on the NHS - Telegraph
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
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09-24-2010, 03:36 PM
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#68
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huusom
Let just have universal healthcare and end this controversy. I don't hear any countries that have universal healthcare talk about their healthcare problems and try to repeal their healthcare system and replace it with employer provided private insurance.
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Of course not - why would we want 'employer provided private insurance'? That's a big part of the mess we are in. We should get away from that, which can be done any number of ways.
-ERD50
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09-24-2010, 04:32 PM
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#69
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Of course not - why would we want 'employer provided private insurance'? That's a big part of the mess we are in. We should get away from that, which can be done any number of ways.
-ERD50
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Agree
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09-24-2010, 05:26 PM
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#70
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude
I for one am waiting to see what the Supreme Court rules in regards to the constitutionailty of the HealthCare bill........apparently there are several cases working their way up the appellate court side at this time.
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I keep hearing this, but how is the healthcare bill mandating the purchase of insurance different than Medicare being mandated? I can't opt out of paying for Medicare during my working-years.
The other question that I have is why is this healthcare bill keep compared with Canada/UK, instead of a more apples-to-apples comparison with the Swiss or the Dutch models?
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09-24-2010, 05:54 PM
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#71
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,228
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Political positions aside, the arguments for it being unconstitutional are a major stretch and are inconsistent with precedent. The lawsuits are mostly posturing. It isn't even a good law school exam question.
Congress has the power under the Commerce Clause to require people to buy health insurance. (The Supreme Court found it was legal for the feds to bar individuals from growing marijuana for their own personal medical use under the commerce clause--that is more of a stretch). Congress also has its power to tax and spend for the general welfare. (It's not like it is a crime if you don't buy insurance, you are only taxed if you don't. Since the 1930s the SC has given Congress pretty much free reign on the taxing power. The power to tax is why social security and medicare are constitutional). No individual liberties are violated--there is no right to go uninsured.
That is the short answer, if you want a long one pay me $350 an hour.
(Edited to clarify that the issue is the requirement to buy health insurance).
__________________
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No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA
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09-24-2010, 06:14 PM
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#72
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
Political positions aside, the arguments for it being unconstitutional are a major stretch and are inconsistent with precedent. The lawsuits are mostly posturing. It isn't even a good law school exam question.
Congress has the power under the Commerce Clause. (The Supreme Court found it was legal for the feds to bar individuals from growing marijuana for their own personal medical use under the commerce clause--that is more of a stretch). Congress also has its power to tax and spend for the general welfare. (It's not like it is a crime if you don't buy insurance, you are only taxed if you don't. Since the 1930s the SC has given Congress pretty much free reign on the taxing power. The power to tax is why social security and medicare are constitutional). No individual liberties are violated--there is no right to go uninsured.
That is the short answer, if you want a long one pay me $350 an hour.
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I think it is the must purchase part of the bill.
The Collegian » Panelists differ on health care legislation
The most controversial provision in the bill is the mandate requiring individuals, including students not covered by their employer or family’s plan, to purchase health insurance, which also goes into effect in 2014. Individuals must provide the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) proof of health insurance when filing their income tax, or be penalized up to $2,000 for a family of four, or 2.5 percent of your income.
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
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09-24-2010, 06:19 PM
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#73
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
I think it is the must purchase part of the bill.
The Collegian » Panelists differ on health care legislation
The most controversial provision in the bill is the mandate requiring individuals, including students not covered by their employer or family’s plan, to purchase health insurance, which also goes into effect in 2014. Individuals must provide the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) proof of health insurance when filing their income tax, or be penalized up to $2,000 for a family of four, or 2.5 percent of your income.
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Yes, Dex, that is the part people are saying is unconstitutional. What I am saying is that 80+ years of precedent all the way up to recent decisions support its constitutionality. Under two separate clauses of the constitution. I'll edit my prior post to make it clearer.
__________________
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No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA
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09-24-2010, 06:29 PM
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#74
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
Political positions aside, the arguments for it being unconstitutional are a major stretch and are inconsistent with precedent.
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That is the short answer, if you want a long one pay me $350 an hour.
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Well, since dex isn't charging, I'll follow up with him
Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
I think it is the must purchase part of the bill.
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That's how I understood it also. I'll agree with Martha (if this is indeed what she means) that it's a rather odd distinction between saying someone must buy a product (which might be considered unconstitutional), and taxing someone and then buying that product for them. But it seems to me that much of law is about these fine and sometimes odd distinctions.
I've heard that one work-around would be to go ahead and collect it as a tax. Which would be interesting as Obama chided George Stephanopoulos for calling the mandated insurance premium a 'tax' and said George was stretching to use Webster as a reference for the definition of the word 'tax'.
Google "youtube Stephanopoulos Obama tax webster" to find the interview if you wish.
-ERD50
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09-24-2010, 06:45 PM
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#75
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
Yes, Dex, that is the part people are saying is unconstitutional. What I am saying is that 80+ years of precedent all the way up to recent decisions support its constitutionality. Under two separate clauses of the constitution. I'll edit my prior post to make it clearer.
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We cross-posted there, but assuming dex didn't send you money in a PM , I'll ask this:
What are those precedents? I think I agree with you in concept, but I am unaware of the Federal govt requiring everyone to purchase something (as opposed to taxing them for it). The (kinda stretched, IMO) response to the States requiring people to buy car insurance is that you don't have to drive a car. So they can't 'force' you. So I consider that a stretch, but it is a legal distinction it seems.
Your thoughts?
-ERD50
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09-24-2010, 07:21 PM
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#76
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Well, since dex isn't charging, I'll follow up with him
That's how I understood it also. I'll agree with Martha (if this is indeed what she means) that it's a rather odd distinction between saying someone must buy a product (which might be considered unconstitutional), and taxing someone and then buying that product for them. But it seems to me that much of law is about these fine and sometimes odd distinctions.
I've heard that one work-around would be to go ahead and collect it as a tax. Which would be interesting as Obama chided George Stephanopoulos for calling the mandated insurance premium a 'tax' and said George was stretching to use Webster as a reference for the definition of the word 'tax'.
Google "youtube Stephanopoulos Obama tax webster" to find the interview if you wish.
-ERD50
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I think that is the crux of the matter - does the government have the power to say a citizen must buy something.
Now, if you think that the mandate is a ultimately a tax because you buy or pay the IRS a penalty then it is just a penalty/tax.
I do think that the way the bill is written will be upheld in the courts. I do not like the idea that the gov't can tell me to buy something and if I don't I will have to pay a penalty.
I am a liberal in my thinking of the relationship between the government and the individual. The rights of the individual's right should be paramount. A powerful government and taxing authority is saying you must do this. If you do not you must pay the government money.
http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf
Will this be the next mandate?
Gun Ownership Mandatory in Kennesaw, Georgia
Gun Ownership Mandatory in Kennesaw, Georgia
Crime Rate Plummets
What other mandates will be coming?
No one is talking about a slippery slope. Why? Because they support the bill and the tax/penalty. They think it is reasonable. And justification can be found in the law. What they are not thinking about is the slippery slope and how, in the future, some mandate may be enacted that they do not support.
In some ways, it reminds me of the discussion about 'torture' after 9/11. Those in favor of the Bush position used their interpretation of the law and definitions to support their position. Why did they want it? Because they thought the torture and info provided served the greater good. We knew in our harts it was wrong no matter what the lawyers said.
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
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09-24-2010, 08:17 PM
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#77
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
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Maybe some of you tax gurus can answer this question. Besides the health insurance law are there any other taxes levied for failure to follow a law? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but other than my personal taxes, I am not very versed in the entire tax system. As law enforcement if someone had to pay the government because they failed to comply with a law, I always called it a fine or penalty.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
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09-24-2010, 08:46 PM
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#78
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
I do think that the way the bill is written will be upheld in the courts. I do not like the idea that the gov't can tell me to buy something and if I don't I will have to pay a penalty.
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Social security includes a mandatory disability insurance component
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09-24-2010, 09:26 PM
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#79
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 8,765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
Yes, Dex, that is the part people are saying is unconstitutional. What I am saying is that 80+ years of precedent all the way up to recent decisions support its constitutionality. Under two separate clauses of the constitution. I'll edit my prior post to make it clearer.
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While I have great respect for your opinions, Martha, this one sounds like an emotional response instead of a logical one. As far as I've ever seen, the Commerce clause, even in it's recent incredibly convoluted interpretations, has never been used to require a citizen to purchase an item or service from a private supplier. I'm not saying the SCOTUS won't rule the way you say, because they don't seem to be reading the same document I am with regard to the Constitution, but I don't think there's any precedent for the requirement to purchase insurance. I'll be interested in the list of precedents you refer to, while admitting I probably won't be able to understand them.
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"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens)
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
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09-25-2010, 09:36 AM
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#80
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,228
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So if I don't brief the issue I am being emotional?
__________________
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No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA
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