Healthcare sharing ministries good or bad? Early retirement health insurance options?

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I do wish that I was charged what the insurance companies pay, we pay upfront I try to get a discount when possible and it is so much easier for the provider. When someone has insurance they may bill $1000 but the insurance company may only pay $250 and the provider is happy but when it's cash pay I'm happy to get 25% discount.

Does your ministry provide you with what a typical 'insured' cost would be for a procedure? I can log into my BCBS account and they have a section "Get Estimate For Healthcare Cost" where I can search for various procedures and BCBS will provide a list of local facilities that provide that service and an estimate of what the cost will be at each one. The cost can vary quite a bit from one facility to the next. Doesn't appear to be top secret information and would be a helpful starting point to negotiate.
 
Please let us know how it works out. Wishing you all the best.


At this point we've paid a little over $20k out of pocket but we have to wait on the providers to give us an itemized bill/receipt before we can submit for reimbursement. The procedure was almost 2 weeks ago so we are prayerful that it all goes as it should.
 
Does your ministry provide you with what a typical 'insured' cost would be for a procedure? I can log into my BCBS account and they have a section "Get Estimate For Healthcare Cost" where I can search for various procedures and BCBS will provide a list of local facilities that provide that service and an estimate of what the cost will be at each one. The cost can vary quite a bit from one facility to the next. Doesn't appear to be top secret information and would be a helpful starting point to negotiate.


Yes and no, there is a "blue book" that will let us know what the facility could charge but there is nothing binding for the provider. The surgery/procedure was rather specialized with some already established complications and there are only 2 providers that could do the procedure within 150 miles of us so we went with the provider that we've been using for the last 10 years.


Our out of pocket cost should be around $500 (if my understanding is correct) however I will be more than satisfied if our portion is only $5000. If the providers do their part we should start receiving checks in February.
 
I asked the poster if that's what was meant from the statement that was made.

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The healthcare ministry will not pay out on a big claim.

Your question was

"The healthcare ministries that were allowed by ACA have been around for >25 years. Your saying they never paid out a big claim?"

No one had stated that they have never paid a big claim. It has been predicted that they won't pay big claims. That is different. I provided a link about a 250K claim that they didn't pay. I know not everyone can read NYT links. It is hard to predict the future. The term big claims is undefined.

I know of people who are happy with the ministries but they have had small claims.

The ministries have no legal obligation to pay claims. Personally I don't care about small claims but I want to be sure that my maximum out of pocket is limited. I don't understand this.



"We have a Christian cost sharing plan and really like it, we've recently had a surgery with a 5 day hospital stay that will cost $70-90k it will be interesting to see how this works out."

I would not consider the uncertainty interesting. I guess people have different outlooks on risk
 
Your question was

"The healthcare ministries that were allowed by ACA have been around for >25 years. Your saying they never paid out a big claim?"

No one had stated that they have never paid a big claim. It has been predicted that they won't pay big claims. That is different. I provided a link about a 250K claim that they didn't pay. I know not everyone can read NYT links. It is hard to predict the future. The term big claims is undefined.

I know of people who are happy with the ministries but they have had small claims.

The ministries have no legal obligation to pay claims. Personally I don't care about small claims but I want to be sure that my maximum out of pocket is limited. I don't understand this.



"We have a Christian cost sharing plan and really like it, we've recently had a surgery with a 5 day hospital stay that will cost $70-90k it will be interesting to see how this works out."

I would not consider the uncertainty interesting. I guess people have different outlooks on risk

Well we have BCBS and my DH had about a 225K incident in 2013...interestingly enough on the bill it said call if you have financial problems or no insurance ..the first tier discount was a flat 40% if you still were short you needed to call for more assistance. I think when all was said and done our insurance and co pay was around the 70K mark. Which is way more then 40% discount, was it a lot money, of course it was but wasn't 225K

What you are forgetting is even today as you age with a regular HD insurance plan, it possible to get close to 20K OOP before you are 100% covered. Regular HI is so far from perfect it's alarming.
 
I find the general sentiment of this forum interesting - Don't trust the costs sharing ministries because they aren't insurance yet they don't want to pay the high premiums of insurance companies and will go out of their way to earn less so they don't have to pay the regular premium.

I take it that you mean interesting as in you don't like it, but to the objective eye it's just a rational way to look at this aspect of the HI solution.

IOW both of your statements are factual so I see nothing wrong with this way of thinking here - HC ministries have unspecified risk that many here don't want to take on and the ACA practically requires you to manage income or get shafted on premiums.
 
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The ministries have no legal obligation to pay claims. Personally I don't care about small claims but I want to be sure that my maximum out of pocket is limited. I don't understand this.


"We have a Christian cost sharing plan and really like it, we've recently had a surgery with a 5 day hospital stay that will cost $70-90k it will be interesting to see how this works out."

I would not consider the uncertainty interesting. I guess people have different outlooks on risk


Even if I had insurance it would be interesting to see if they paid. You seem to be under the impression that insurance companies don't deny coverage.


When we lost our insurance coverage we applied for Health Net we were denied coverage because of a pre existing condition if we were able to get coverage for a family of 4 it could cost $2k per month (? just a guess) so if I'm anywhere in the ballpark I come out ahead even if I have to pay for the whole thing out of pocket.
 
I take it that you mean interesting as in you don't like it, but to the objective eye it's just a rational way to look at this aspect of the HI solution.

IOW both of your statements are factual so I see nothing wrong with this way of thinking here - HC ministries have unspecified risk that many here don't want to take on and the ACA practically requires you to manage income or get shafted on premiums.


It's not that I don't like it but it does seem counter intuitive.


I'm no expert in HC ministries (or insurance) but I understand our "coverage" better than I ever understood the insurance plans that we've had, I see no more risk with it than with traditional insurance coverage obviously I don't know what I don't know. The second part is I don't pay nearly as much as some of my friends with the ACA so I don't expect the same benefits.
 
Yeah and that second part is what concerns everyone here. The ACA has legal insurance requirements, HC ministries are the wild west.

Plus the ACA can be very cheap if income can be managed so guaranteed coverage doesn't have to be expensive. I realize that not everyone can take advantage of this, but it is a huge cost factor for coverage today.
 
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What you are forgetting is even today as you age with a regular HD insurance plan, it possible to get close to 20K OOP before you are 100% covered. Regular HI is so far from perfect it's alarming.

I regularly complain about Health Ins. as it's a real pain.
We tend to buy whatever plan has reasonable limits on our total out of pocket payment.

When I had surgery a number of years ago, I was concerned as the list price back then was $125K , in the end we might have paid $0 to $1K deductible. I was pretty happy :dance:
 
I regularly complain about Health Ins. as it's a real pain.
We tend to buy whatever plan has reasonable limits on our total out of pocket payment.

When I had surgery a number of years ago, I was concerned as the list price back then was $125K , in the end we might have paid $0 to $1K deductible. I was pretty happy :dance:

In addition to your premiums....OOP have increased substantially in the last few years..come back with the full cost of that past insurance both employer ( or ACA subsidy) and your monthly payment. It's going to be way more then 0.
 
It's not that I don't like it but it does seem counter intuitive.


I'm no expert in HC ministries (or insurance) but I understand our "coverage" better than I ever understood the insurance plans that we've had, I see no more risk with it than with traditional insurance coverage obviously I don't know what I don't know. The second part is I don't pay nearly as much as some of my friends with the ACA so I don't expect the same benefits.

The risk is that they may not pay a big claim. You have no legal recourse. Probably that won't happen. It is fine if you are ok with that.
 
I have to wonder about the amount they keep in their reserve funds given that they are not regulated.

What happens in a situation like covid where they could have an above average number of very large claims?

Not just the claims for current hospitalizations, but claims due to ongoing health issues from covid.

When we buy insurance it is meant to protect us against certain perils...fire, death, auto accidents, etc. I am willing to pay for certainty. Not sure what discounted amount, if any, I would be willing to pay for uncertainty against these perils.
 
Following only casually.

No regulation. No obligation to pay. What's not to like?

I just pulled the tax return for Christian Healthcare Ministries Inc. at guidestar.org. It's a $500M business, executives just moderately paid for that size business. $150M reserves, close to $500M in payouts annually. Payouts look to be about 98% (!) of revenue. IANACPA but from that review I didn't see anything that seemed especially stinky.

You can get tax returns from any of these organizations that are nonprofits (rather than churches) at guidestar.org. It's necessary to register as a user but I've been registered for a number of years and have never gotten spam or been bothered in any other way. I've found guidestar.org to be a great tool.
 
I did some research on this recently. Read all about "Sedera" (pdf, if you care to read about specifics). The idea seemed to be that you sign up with a doctor you go to that's not doing the current/broken insurance model where they can only charge for a sick code combined with a service code (aka, the sicker the better). They help you find "Direct Primary Care", a local practice where they collect a monthly amount from everyone, use it or not, and they just do your medical stuff. That monthly fee, plus the payment to the cost sharing group can be about half of what you'd pay (rack rate) for insurance. So as long as the cost sharing paid for the unexpected/big thing, you'd be fine. I read another, very detailed PDF, and they said if they didn't have enough to pay everybody's claims, everyone would get less.

Frankly, I think that would work. I'd say you'd get MUCH better service (some of these Direct Primary Care practices pick up the phone 24/7, and you can always get an appointment in a reasonable time, not 2 months out). Also, rather than trying to slap a sick-code on everything, they just do what you want to maintain and improve health. I'm even considering joining a Direct Primary Care practice while on ACA. It doesn't count towards deductible, but with HDHI, any historically few services needed, I don't get close to the insurance paying for anything anyway.

The cost sharing company supposedly can help you negotiate for things, either before or after the fact. They have resources to get an insight on pricing of things (they have exactly what Medicare would have paid, and they often have access to the secret prices that are set-up between insurance companies and healthcare providers). It's like the situation with other "real" insurance...you've got someone on your side who does this stuff every day; you're not on your own. So true, you do not have access to the pricing negotiated by the insurance companies, but if it's before the fact, you can probably get a pretty good price up front with the help of the cost sharing company, and if it's after the fact, if they try the "charge master" BS on you, the cost sharing company will slap that down in a hurry.

One other concern is "what if I get some horrific disease that requires lots of expensive treatment?" Of course the cost sharing should help you out, but even if it doesn't, that would only last 6 months, on average, because open enrollment would be upon you again, and you'd make a decision based on the current calculus with the horrific disease.

Most of the people that are on this board buy traditional insurance, and don't want to hear that they've been "doing it wrong" (cognitive dissonance). I get it. Any change is going to be an uphill battle. Some people "need" contractual. Me, less so. I tend to explore ideas like this in a modeling/decision tree kind of format. This is a tough one, but when I assemble all of the decision nodes and chance nodes, the health and cost is leaning toward the abandonment of the broken insurance / medical industrial complex and going to something else. Of course it makes a big difference what value you place on health, and what the likelihood is of having better health outcomes if you have someone who's trying to make you healthy, rather than someone who only gets paid if you're sick. Not a model any two people will build the same way.
 
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Yeah and that second part is what concerns everyone here. The ACA has legal insurance requirements, HC ministries are the wild west.

Plus the ACA can be very cheap if income can be managed so guaranteed coverage doesn't have to be expensive. I realize that not everyone can take advantage of this, but it is a huge cost factor for coverage today.

Many folks are against the management of income for low ACA premiums, as they aren't able to pull it off themselves. Many folks on this forum are able to take advantage of other tax based situations, of which I have no issues with.
 
One other concern is "what if I get some horrific disease that requires lots of expensive treatment?" Of course the cost sharing should help you out, but even if it doesn't, that would only last 6 months, on average, because open enrollment would be upon you again, and you'd make a decision based on the current calculus with the horrific disease.
In the meantime you could be on the hook for multiple $100k's of treatment. Not saying it's likely, just possible.

I had to LOL at the 'moral & ethical' requirements of membership in that pdf. Whose morals & ethics? Smoking a joint, frex, specifically disallows you from cost-sharing. This is one of the problems with these setups IMO, they can basically deny you for anything if they think you're not Mr. Rogers.
 
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In the meantime you could be on the hook for multiple $100k's of treatment. Not saying it's likely, just possible.

I had to LOL at the 'moral & ethical' requirements of membership in that pdf. Whose morals & ethics? Smoking a joint, frex, specifically disallows you from cost-sharing. This is one of the problems with these setups IMO, they can basically deny you for anything if they think you're not Mr. Rogers.

Mr Rogers who knows, but basically I think it's an out for covering claims that result from illegal behavior. i.e drunk driving. It up to an individual to decide if they want to accept those conditions.
 
I did some research on this recently. Read all about "Sedera" (pdf, if you care to read about specifics). The idea seemed to be that you sign up with a doctor you go to that's not doing the current/broken insurance model where they can only charge for a sick code combined with a service code (aka, the sicker the better). They help you find "Direct Primary Care", a local practice where they collect a monthly amount from everyone, use it or not, and they just do your medical stuff. That monthly fee, plus the payment to the cost sharing group can be about half of what you'd pay (rack rate) for insurance. So as long as the cost sharing paid for the unexpected/big thing, you'd be fine. I read another, very detailed PDF, and they said if they didn't have enough to pay everybody's claims, everyone would get less.

Frankly, I think that would work. I'd say you'd get MUCH better service (some of these Direct Primary Care practices pick up the phone 24/7, and you can always get an appointment in a reasonable time, not 2 months out). Also, rather than trying to slap a sick-code on everything, they just do what you want to maintain and improve health. I'm even considering joining a Direct Primary Care practice while on ACA. It doesn't count towards deductible, but with HDHI, any historically few services needed, I don't get close to the insurance paying for anything anyway.

The cost sharing company supposedly can help you negotiate for things, either before or after the fact. They have resources to get an insight on pricing of things (they have exactly what Medicare would have paid, and they often have access to the secret prices that are set-up between insurance companies and healthcare providers). It's like the situation with other "real" insurance...you've got someone on your side who does this stuff every day; you're not on your own. So true, you do not have access to the pricing negotiated by the insurance companies, but if it's before the fact, you can probably get a pretty good price up front with the help of the cost sharing company, and if it's after the fact, if they try the "charge master" BS on you, the cost sharing company will slap that down in a hurry.

One other concern is "what if I get some horrific disease that requires lots of expensive treatment?" Of course the cost sharing should help you out, but even if it doesn't, that would only last 6 months, on average, because open enrollment would be upon you again, and you'd make a decision based on the current calculus with the horrific disease.

Most of the people that are on this board buy traditional insurance, and don't want to hear that they've been "doing it wrong" (cognitive dissonance). I get it. Any change is going to be an uphill battle. Some people "need" contractual. Me, less so. I tend to explore ideas like this in a modeling/decision tree kind of format. This is a tough one, but when I assemble all of the decision nodes and chance nodes, the health and cost is leaning toward the abandonment of the broken insurance / medical industrial complex and going to something else. Of course it makes a big difference what value you place on health, and what the likelihood is of having better health outcomes if you have someone who's trying to make you healthy, rather than someone who only gets paid if you're sick. Not a model any two people will build the same way.

Direct primary care + insurance could be the best if you are willing to pay. You get the responsiveness but you are covered for the unusually large expenses. Most people will not have a huge claim and will do fine with the ministries.
 
Direct primary care + insurance could be the best if you are willing to pay. You get the responsiveness but you are covered for the unusually large expenses. Most people will not have a huge claim and will do fine with the ministries.
Thanks for your perspective on it. I'm seriously considering DPC while still on the ACA. This way, I'd have a non-clouded (or I suppose, technically, "alternatively clouded") relationship with a doctor. There's no such thing as a perfect relationship with a medical provider. The gold standard is the relationship you have with the pilot in an aircraft....he's saving his own "hide" while saving yours. I want to get as close to that arrangement with a doctor as I can :LOL:
 
Many folks are against the management of income for low ACA premiums, as they aren't able to pull it off themselves. Many folks on this forum are able to take advantage of other tax based situations, of which I have no issues with.

Agreed. Furthermore everything is OK until you get REALLY sick. Managing income for a subsidy is really the best choice. While this flies in the face of my personal philosophy, in todays world it is perfectly acceptable. My hypocrisy knows no bounds. Our healthcare system is in shambles and it's every man, woman and family for themselves.

In the interest of full disclosure I would like to add I have retiree medical coverage from my large corporate plan and medicare in a few months. Likewise all my children have topnotch govt and corp plans. However, that does not mean that because I got mine doesn't mean the problem does not exist.
 
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Please let us know how it works out. Wishing you all the best.


A couple of interesting twists:

When we first spoke with the physician in October (?) prior to the surgery we asked how much the procedure would be (I fully expected him to say he had no idea since he does one part, the hospital does theirs etc) but he was quick to say $50k all in, I was pleasantly surprised that he had an idea and that he would share that with me but even if it's 2x that amount we will be okay with it.

Three days ago my wife calls the hospital trying to find out how much we owe and asks for the itemized bill they tell her it's $172k+(only the hospital portion and that doesn't include the doctors, labs etc), my wife told them that the estimate they gave us was $59k the lady was quick to say it was only an estimate and that they aren't done with it yet...

I called this morning and spoke to another lady in the billing department today the bill is $48k.

This will be a bumpy ride.
 
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Mr Rogers who knows, but basically I think it's an out for covering claims that result from illegal behavior. i.e drunk driving. It up to an individual to decide if they want to accept those conditions.

Doctors have to treat everyone without judgement, they take an oath to that effect. So these moralists get to decide who gets treatment or not? Then, it's not health insurance; it's biblical judgment
 
Doctors have to treat everyone without judgement, they take an oath to that effect. So these moralists get to decide who gets treatment or not? Then, it's not health insurance; it's biblical judgment


They treat everyone without judgment, just like you ;)
 
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