It looks like dementia can be reversed!

[OldShooter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetMD21 Here is a Lancet Neurology editorial pointing out some of the issues with the Bredesen papers. https://memory.ucsf.edu/sites/memory...%280420%29.pdf

I am not a retMD but I was trained as a physicist and engineer. I asked that question pretty much knowing what the answer would be. My impression is that virtually all of the various specialized diets and magical healings are sold based on anecdotes, and usually pushed by charlatans and quacks who have something to sell. Chiropractors seem to be the worst IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastWest Gal You can’t do a double blind placebo controlled diet study. How are you going to blind people to what they eat? How long would such a study need to go in and how many subjects do you need to hit a threshold of statistical significance? Would you keep people in a lab for years? ... I think prospective nutrition studies are just about impossible.

All true. Too many & unknown variables, experiments too short, sample sets too small to be statistically valid, ... The list goes on and on. This is a playing field where fraud cannot be easily challenged due to lack of hard facts.

Further exposing my self to thrown bricks, I'll say that my guess is that a lot of these schemes seem to be anecdotally successful for some people due to a sort of Hawthorne Effect, where mere observation produces positive results. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect)

[daylatedollarshort]

I've read the Breseden book. While I'm not sure about the expensive supplement part, most of what he tests for and recommends for patients is in the can't hurt - might help categories, like getting enough sleep, don't eat before bedtime, eating more produce and checking B12 and vitamin D levels.

Clearly there are other countries, and the Seventh Day Adventists here in the U.S. in Loma Linda, where the populations have very different diets and lifestyles from most Americans, and they are not getting Alzheimer's at the same rates, so why not try to figure out what they are doing right and copy them? I don't find it far fetched to believe that people who change their diets and lifestyle habits can improve their brains.

[daylatedollarshort]

On the "type" of best diet front, this is an interesting find from The American Gut project:

"Knight adds that he and his team can guess a person’s diet by the bacteria predominant in his or her microbiome. The presence of the strain Oxalobacter suggests that the individual consumes lots of leafy green vegetables. People with Prevotella tend to have diets heavy in pasta, sugar, or other carbs, and the strain Bacteroides corresponds with diets that include plenty of meat. So far, data from the food frequency questionnaires of American Gut Project participants show that when people describe their diets as Western, Mediterranean, vegan, or Paleo, there is little effect on the microbiome, “suggesting that subtle details of diet are more important than overall self-reported categories,” Knight says."

https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/hea...-glory-225377/

[TimeMeasure]

We asked a neurologist (PI on clinical trials for Alzheimer’s treatments) about his opinion of the Bredesen protocol.

Though tactfully expressed, his thoughts basically mirrored those expressed in the Lancet article, i.e.: the Bredesen protocol is somewhat vague in implementation, inaccurately measured in its success rate, and bottom line, not a miraculous cure for dementia. If it were, that would be well known by now, and millions of the afflicted, and their families, would be diligently effecting such a self-cure, and publicizing it.

The neurologist we spoke with was not an individual given to egotism, ideology or bluster. He was humble, careful in his thought process, deliberate in his choice of words, scientific in his outlook. Not the kind of individual to be blinded by his own ego.

Although lifestyle, diet, etc. are all important risk factors, that seems to be all that they are. They move the probability needle, but don’t seem to constitute a cure, unfortunately.

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeMeasure We asked a neurologist (PI on clinical trials for Alzheimer’s treatments) about his opinion of the Bredesen protocol. Though tactfully expressed, his thoughts basically mirrored those expressed in the Lancet article, i.e.: the Bredesen protocol is somewhat vague in implementation, inaccurately measured in its success rate, and bottom line, not a miraculous cure for dementia. If it were, that would be well known by now, and millions of the afflicted, and their families, would be diligently effecting such a self-cure, and publicizing it. The neurologist we spoke with was not an individual given to egotism, ideology or bluster. He was humble, careful in his thought process, deliberate in his choice of words, scientific in his outlook. Not the kind of individual to be blinded by his own ego. Although lifestyle, diet, etc. are all important risk factors, that seems to be all that they are. They move the probability needle, but don’t seem to constitute a cure, unfortunately.

If diet and exercise don't move the needle much, why would such a small percentage of seniors in Loma Linda have Alzheimer's compared to the surrounding communities?

[gauss]

Perhaps it is proper diet and exercise over the long term that is helping -- rather than expecting 9th inning changes to reverse the damage after it has been done.

-gauss

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gauss Perhaps it is proper diet and exercise over the long term that is helping -- rather than expecting 9th inning changes to reverse the damage after it has been done. -gauss

You might find this of interest:

"The FINGER study (the Finnish Geriatric Intervention Study to Prevent Cognitive Impairment and Disability) was the first of its kind to look at how we can prevent dementia using a multifaceted approach based on lifestyle factors. This two-year, randomized controlled trial, with 1,260 participants looked at the impacts of diet, physical activity, cognitive training and social activities, and intensive monitoring of metabolic and vascular risk factors on cognition in older at-risk individuals.And the results provide empowering evidence for the future of brain health.
Comprehensive neuropsychological assessment at the end of the two-year study showed that using a multimodal approach focused on lifestyle interventions like nutrition and exercise had a significant benefit on cognition, including the areas of memory, executive function, and psychomotor speed.
For decades we were taught there was no stopping cognitive decline, now we know it’s possible to maintain a youthful brain into old age using accessible means, like what we put on the end of our fork."

Source: https://drhyman.com/blog/2019/05/14/...of-alzheimers/

[gauss]

^ Thank you

BTW - Here is a link to the actual published study.
https://link.springer.com/content/pd...ad.2019.41.pdf

I haven't had a chance to digest it yet, but it looked like the individuals in the study were 60 - 77 years old. My DM was not diagnosed with dementia until her mid 80s.

As such, I suspect that the study has more to do with preventing dementia than curing it which was the point of my original comment.

I think this was also the point that timemeasure was making above.

No argument that lifestyle can effect probability of getting dementia, but once it is firmly rooted, the cures currently are not there.

I will try to look further at the study, but thanks in advance for sharing it.

-gauss

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gauss ^ Thank you BTW - Here is a link to the actual published study. https://link.springer.com/content/pd...ad.2019.41.pdf I haven't had a chance to digest it yet, but it looked like the individuals in the study were 60 - 77 years old. My DM was not diagnosed with dementia until her mid 80s. As such, I suspect that the study has more to do with preventing dementia than curing it which was the point of my original comment. I think this was also the point that timemeasure was making above. No argument that lifestyle can effect probability of getting dementia, but once it is firmly rooted, the cures currently are not there. I will try to look further at the study, but thanks in advance for sharing it. -gauss

I think the point most functional medical doctors make about preventing or reversing cognitive decline is that both the observational and interventional studies that show promise are mostly just healthy things to do anyway - eat a lot of colorful plants, exercise, good sleep habits, reduce stress, have social contacts, etc. There's no downside and a lot of potential upside. This is what most Americans actually eat: https://health.gov/our-work/food-nut...united-states/. They aren't even meeting the basic U.S. nutritional guidelines, which aren't a high bar compared to what most functional medical doctors would likely recommend for good health.

Researchers have reversed Alzheimer's like symptoms in mice with diet changes:
"A diet containing compounds found in green tea and carrots reversed Alzheimer's-like symptoms in mice genetically programmed to develop the disease, USC researchers say......"You don't have to wait 10 to 12 years for a designer drug to make it to market; you can make these dietary changes today," said senior author Terrence Town, a professor of physiology and neuroscience at the Keck School of Medicine of USC's Zilkha Neurogenetic Institute. "I find that very encouraging."
Sources: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0306133414.htm

I suspect most doctors would say it is impossible to reverse cancer or heart disease with diet and lifestyle changes, but studies showing the opposite to likely be true are all out there as well.

[timo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gauss Perhaps it is proper diet and exercise over the long term that is helping -- rather than expecting 9th inning changes to reverse the damage after it has been done. -gauss

+1
My simplistic view is if dementia is being considered "type 3 diabetes" by the medical community, then the actions and behaviors that reduce or mitigate the other types of diabetes would be appropriate for type 3. And those actions and behaviors are well known.

[Sojourner]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timo2 My simplistic view is if dementia is being considered "type 3 diabetes" by the medical community, then the actions and behaviors that reduce or mitigate the other types of diabetes would be appropriate for type 3. And those actions and behaviors are well known.

+1
I was going to post basically the same thing. Given that intermittent fasting (and/or time-restricted eating) is gaining favor within the medical community for its ability to help reverse type 2 diabetes (among many other benefits), seems reasonable to think that it might also help to prevent or reverse dementia. I'm certainly hoping that's the case, as I'm fully on board with IF/TRE.

As for the thread title and OP, seems a bit premature at this time to declare with any degree of certitude that "dementia can be reversed!". Ten to 15 years from now, though, I'd be willing to bet that one or more very effective treatments will have been discovered and developed. But, like intermittent fasting, they may require significant lifestyle changes that many would find burdensome.

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourner +1 I was going to post basically the same thing. Given that intermittent fasting (and/or time-restricted eating) is gaining favor within the medical community for its ability to help reverse type 2 diabetes (among many other benefits), seems reasonable to think that it might also help to prevent or reverse dementia. I'm certainly hoping that's the case, as I'm fully on board with IF/TRE. As for the thread title and OP, seems a bit premature at this time to declare with any degree of certitude that "dementia can be reversed!". Ten to 15 years from now, though, I'd be willing to bet that one or more very effective treatments will have been discovered and developed. But, like intermittent fasting, they may require significant lifestyle changes that many would find burdensome.

"The current 2015–2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommends that people needing 2,000 calories per day include 2 cups of fruit and 2.5 cups of vegetables in their daily diets. USDA food consumption surveys find that the average American falls far short—consuming only 0.9 cups of fruit and 1.4 cups of vegetables per day."

So imagine the potential health difference if people ate 12 servings of exceptionally high antioxidant fruit and vegetables a day, let alone the other healthy habits the experts recommend. In a petri dish study, the blood from people who eat plant based had 8 times the cancer fighting ability of people on the standard American diet. It doesn't seem far fetched to me that a diet like this could improve brain health as well.

[RetMD21]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldShooter I am not a retMD but I was trained as a physicist and engineer. I asked that question pretty much knowing what the answer would be. My impression is that virtually all of the various specialized diets and magical healings are sold based on anecdotes, and usually pushed by charlatans and quacks who have something to sell. Chiropractors seem to be the worst IMO. [/URL])

As others have said a lot of the healthy diet advice falls in the category of seeming like a good idea with little downside. The recommendations for brain health are similar to those for heart health so it seems reasonable to make some efforts in that direction. On the other hand, we all die so you don't want to feel deprived.

[irishgal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetMD21 As others have said a lot of the healthy diet advice falls in the category of seeming like a good idea with little downside. The recommendations for brain health are similar to those for heart health so it seems reasonable to make some efforts in that direction. On the other hand, we all die so you don't want to feel deprived.

So, everything in moderation, including moderation!

[Speculator]

"I suspect most doctors would say it is impossible to reverse cancer or heart disease with diet and lifestyle changes, but studies showing the opposite to likely be true are all out there as well."

And that begs the question: If these diseases are reversible, how long does it take to reverse them?"

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speculator "I suspect most doctors would say it is impossible to reverse cancer or heart disease with diet and lifestyle changes, but studies showing the opposite to likely be true are all out there as well." And that begs the question: If these diseases are reversible, how long does it take to reverse them?"

I don't have any answers to your questions. I just like to watch Tedtalks and read books on food and medicine. These are a couple of items I've read / watched, that really stood out for me, especially the time frames:

You might find this study interesting on diet swapping:
"Scientists have found dramatic effects on risk factors for colon cancer when American and African volunteers swapped diets for just two weeks."
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0428125038.htm

On the cancer front, William Li recommends diet and medical treatment - ".....starting with the powerful role of food in immunotherapy, the practice of enhancing the body’s natural ability to fight cancer, rather than relying on drugs to kill cancer. He’s seen the amazing results of this on a very personal level: Dr. Li’s own mother had metastatic endometrial cancer; using immunotherapy, she was cancer-free in 30-days....This is a dramatic example and it’s important to note that only about 20% of people respond strongly to immunotherapy, but it’s extremely promising for the future of food in medicine. People who respond to immunotherapy have a certain bacteria in their gut, one that we can feed with pomegranate juice and polyphenols from other foods, like cranberries. We can enhance the response to immunotherapy by feeding the right gut bugs..."
https://drhyman.com/blog/2019/03/20/podcast-ep45/

[Speculator]

Interesting stuff.

As a side note, when I checked my "go to" source for medical information, The Cochrane Library of Systematic Reviews, the reviews on immunotherapy I found discussed interventions which involved much more than changing one's diet.

(https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/about-cdsr )

And after doing some reading on immunotherapy at the American Cancer Society site, they seem to echo the same thoughts.

https://www.cancer.org/treatment/tre...notherapy.html

That being said, it seems to me there is definitely a relationship between diet and and developing catastrophic diseases, so thank you for starting this thread. I now know more about this subject than I did before!

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speculator Interesting stuff. As a side note, when I checked my "go to" source for medical information, The Cochrane Library of Systematic Reviews, the reviews on immunotherapy I found discussed interventions which involved much more than changing one's diet. (https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/about-cdsr ) And after doing some reading on immunotherapy at the American Cancer Society site, they seem to echo the same thoughts. https://www.cancer.org/treatment/tre...notherapy.html That being said, it seems to me there is definitely a relationship between diet and and developing catastrophic diseases, so thank you for starting this thread. I now know more about this subject than I did before!

Yes, the immunotherapy part means drugs, which is why I said Dr. Li recommends diet and medical treatment, but they are drugs that boost the immune system, which is different than chemotherapy. Jimmy Carter is 95 now and survived liver and brain cancer with the help of cutting edge immunotherapy.

From Dr. Li's blog - "Pomegranate juice is loaded with the beneficial bacteria Akkermansia. It is one of the thousands of types of bacteria that reside in the human gut microbiome. Akkermansia has numerous benefits, one of them being immune support. In fact, the powerful bacteria predict the best response to cancer immunotherapy of any gut bacteria. People who have Akkermansia in their digestive tract are more likely to fight cancer on their own."

Besides improving the immune system, akkemansia is in the gut is inversely associated with obesity, diabetes, cardiometabolic diseases and low-grade inflammation.(source: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...017.01765/full). Sixty percent of the immune system is in our gut, so my thoughts are why not try building up these bacteria, especially with a pandemic in progress.

I made a fruit salad that included pomegranate seeds for dinner. Dr. Li has a good book, Eat to Beat Disease out. I really enjoyed reading it, learned a lot, and try to eat many of the superfoods he recommends. It is not a vegan, vegetarian or low fat diet and I don't find it hard to follow at all. You can see the food list here - https://drwilliamli.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Shopping-Guide_Mobile_Icon.pdf.

[Speculator]

Thanks for the clarification! What misled me was when I went to Dr. Li's video and saw it was over an hour, I only watched the first few minutes where the moderator was talking about the importance of food in preventing disease. After reading the script, I saw that stem cell therapy and other interventions were also discussed, hence my not finding only dietary interventions in Cochrane's Reviews. Thanks!

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speculator Thanks for the clarification! What misled me was when I went to Dr. Li's video and saw it was over an hour, I only watched the first few minutes where the moderator was talking about the importance of food in preventing disease. After reading the script, I saw that stem cell therapy and other interventions were also discussed, hence my not finding only dietary interventions in Cochrane's Reviews. Thanks!

I think Dr. Li got his start developing drugs that help diseases like cancer, but then with patients asking what to eat to help their conditions he decided why not start testing every day foods as well. In his books he has foods that help cut off the blood supply to cancer tumors, foods to boost the immune system, foods that help with DNA repair and more. There some exotic foods in there but most are every day foods like kiwi fruit, garlic, sourdough bread, wine and shrimp.

The video below is shorter the the previous one, and is on foods that help with anti-angiogenesis, foods that help cut off the blood supply to cancer tumors. At the end is a chart showing the effectiveness of cancer drugs vs. foods, and some foods are more effective than the drugs.


Can we eat to starve cancer?
https://www.ted.com/talks/william_li..._starve_cancer