Neighbor's Wood Smoke Unbearable; Appears There's No Legal Recourse; What to Do?

[NateW]

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Originally Posted by PaunchyPirate I’m sorry to say, but this problem is for you to solve on your property or look into relocating. That house was there first and is well within their right to do what they are doing unless there are laws to prevent it. It’s unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Thanks for commenting. DW and I are coming to realize this; she's already looking at houses online, but I don't think it's safe to move until the pandemic is under control and we are vaccinated. We also want to be extremely careful this time and thuroughly research places we are interested in, although I don't think we could have anticipated this problem. If it got real bad smoke wise perhaps we could rent a small place this winter.

[NateW]

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Originally Posted by DenverGuy42 I live in Colorado. We had lots of fires this year. The AQI numbers were off the chart. There would be ash on our car. It was thick. It smelled. You could feel it as you breathed. This was going to be happening for months on end. I bought a purpleair monitor and installed it in the house. It was showing particulate counts of over 150 (over 50 is moderately bad, over 100 is bad, over 150 is very bad and so on). So, we bought an at least MERV 13 air filter for our furnace and ran the furnace fan 24x7 when the smoke was bad outside. AQI numbers in the cabin - in the tens to low teens. Outside in the mid to upper 100's. Basically, we turned our furnace blower into a whole house air purifier. We had to replace the filters every other week or so (they got very brown, very fast) - but we could breath freely. We did the same thing at my father in laws house. He has COPD and was getting really affected by the smoke. It completely cleared up his house (normal size house - much larger than our cabin). You might try that - just do keep an eye on the filter to see how often you might have to change it.

Thank you for commenting DenverGuy. You have received some of my anexiety. You had it much worse than I do and made it through. Excellent idea. I've got a 5 inch thick MERV 11 in there now, but that is not good enough. I'll compare the MERV 11 and 13 specs for pressure drop (I use an electronic manometer to determine furnace filter replacement intervals) and see if it is too great. I'm also going to look into installing a Honeywell electronic air cleaner in the filter frame (it's designed for both).

[NateW]

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Originally Posted by Amethyst Offer to buy them a new stove and higher-quality wood, is all I can think of. If it's any comfort, I am on your side about your right to breathe clean air. But I'm not the law. Oh, and if you decide to sell, think hard before engaging the nearby neighbors. You wouldn't want a prospective buyer going door-to-door only to hear, "Oh, yeah! Those are the people who have to sell because they get the wood smoke so bad at their house!"

Thanks Amethyst. Great point. The more DW and I discuss the matter, the more we want to move. The smoke problem appears to be the catalyst. Don't want to jeopardize the sale. If we do decide to move, I won't poll the neighbors about the smoke. There are several things about this house and location that are suboptimal. I think we moved a little too quickly after I ER'ed. The old house we lived in for 15 years in Northern Virginia had some issues and DW could not wait to get out and I could not wait to get out of Northern Virginia because I lived there over 50 years and had enough of all the traffic and congestion and ever since I was a teenager thought I'd like to live in the Shenandoah Valley after visiting a few places there. But now I'm not so sure. For one thing the air quality is generally bad because air stagnates in valleys (I knew this before we moved but discounted it's importance). This house is big (3600 sq ft.). I liked it because it easily holds all of our stuff. Well it's time to downsize and halve what we posess. I'm also finding out it's a lot of house to take care of and keep clean. It has open floor plan with a 14 foot vaulted ceiling in the "Great Room" which includes the living room and kitchen and it is an accoustic disaster and causes sounds to carry all over the house and they are extra loud. All I do is work on this house and tend to the yard and it's only 8 years old! It's 300 feet from a highway and major trucking route, with a stoplight a few hundred feet up from us. The big trucks use their engine brakes all throughout the day when stopping at the light. Engine brakes make a very loud and rapid popping noise when activated. Our bedroom is on the highway side and we hear the trucks inside.

[Bamaman]

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Originally Posted by Amethyst Offer to buy them a new stove and higher-quality wood, is all I can think of. If it's any comfort, I am on your side about your right to breathe clean air. But I'm not the law.

Many places out west, building codes require that any wood burning stoves, fireplaces or heaters have catalytic converters in them. The pollutants are burned prior to going out of the chimney.

I agree about offering to buy such a stove for the family. It's cheaper than moving.

[Walt34]

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Originally Posted by NateW It's 300 feet from a highway and major trucking route, with a stoplight a few hundred feet up from us. The big trucks use their engine brakes all throughout the day when stopping at the light. Engine brakes make a very loud and rapid popping noise when activated. Our bedroom is on the highway side and we hear the trucks inside.

Lemme guess, you're within sight of, or nearly so, to I-81, the second most used north-south trucking route in the East after I-95. "Jake brakes" are a royal pain to be around.

Most of Virginia is a beautiful state. But not near I-81.

[ivinsfan]

It's not a problem with the house itself so why is it disclosable. Maybe a new buyer won't notice it or care about or maybe the smelly neighbor will move. Just like road noise it's in the nose/ear of the occupant.

As to the smell, when we drive 2 hours East to see our DD in the wintertime, there are certain locations where I have to turn off the outside vents on our car. The smell of burning is horrible and it happens EVERY SINGLE TIME in the same locations. I often joke to my DH that they must all be nose blind because the smell is so stinky I don't know how anyone could live with it.

[6miths]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Wood smoke is a major health issue the world over. Around here wood burning stoves and fireplaces are forbidden in new builds. We moved into a 100+ year old farm house which used to stand alone but now has residential all around it. The house had 2 fireplaces and a woodstove and a third walled up fireplace. We replaced the woodstove with NG and put high-efficiency inserts into the two fireplaces. We use one of them a fair bit. Main heat is NG. Agree that with dried hard wood we can't really see any smoke coming out of the chimney but one can still catch the scent of smoke if it is a heavy, damp day. Of course, we don't usually have a fire on those days. We only have one close neighbor and they have never mentioned smoke as an issue and we are friendly neighbors.

If the fire marshall has been in I agree with others that there is not much else to do. Good dried hardwood can be relatively expensive. We burn about 6-8 face cords a season and significantly more when we had the woodstove and small children home all day. Not many options that haven't been mentioned. Any chance they have an option to heat with NG or propane? Seriously, sorry to hear of your difficulties.

[trumpeting_angel]

I recently moved from 10 acres in Vermont to an apartment in a city. For awhile my heating system was over-active (fixed now, thank goodness), and I kept the windows open to keep it under 75F. As soon as the weather got cold, I was besieged by smoke from all the neighboring buildings. These are old multi- and single-family houses, and at least one is burning wood.



I bought the air purifiers recommended on wirecutter.com, the Coway air filter. They work beautifully. Now the heating system is fixed and I can shut the windows, but I like knowing that the air I breathe is still being improved.

[Scrapr]

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Originally Posted by NateW I'm also going to look into installing a Honeywell electronic air cleaner in the filter frame (it's designed for both).

Our home in Bend also got hit hard with forest fire smoke over several years. We installed an electronic air filter (might have been Honeywell) As Denverguy said we ran the furnace fan all the time. The filter was washable so didn't have to replace filters. We were very thankful as it worked great. I think we had smoke 3 or 4 years of the 5 or 6 years we had the filter. Several neighbors were complaining about the smoke. I always showed them our unit

[Buckeye]

We have a smaller version of the problem because of the next door neighbor burning green wood from the grocery store in their fireplace. Who needs a fireplace in FL, for heaven's sake?

Luckily, it's not an everyday thing but I have a very keen sense of smell and the smell of smoke bugs me big time. Their chimney seems to be very short and the smoke seems to roll right out of it and over to our house. It seems to get trapped in our screened pool enclosure. Sometimes I put on the patio fans trying to get rid of the smell because the stink rolls in when I open the door for the cat to go out (even though she could go into the kitchen and use her cat door!)

Sometimes the cat comes in just reeking of wood smoke. They are friends so we can get it worked out. I have mentioned the level of smoke but the adult daughter's response is always, "I love the smell!" Good, keep it in your yard!

[RobbieB]

Even here in "pollution sensitive" CA where you can no longer buy a new house with solid fuel appliance there are no restrictions on those who have only a wood stove for heat.

Lotsa cheap natural gas here and if you have it you are restricted from burning on 3 different levels. No burn, registered EPA stoves only and please don't burn.

But if you have only a stove for heat, you are free to pollute as much as needed.

[NateW]

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Originally Posted by pb4uski First, I understand your frustration. Second, I think that you need to recognize that that family has the right to burn wood and since the fire marshall reported all was in order then there probably isn't very much that you can force them to do. While my guess is that they burn wood because that is all that they can afford, it might be that they burn wood because that seems to them to be their only option. I think I would have a chat with a local woodstove company and see if what you describe is very common and if they have any ideas on any possible solutions. Is their chimney tall enough? Also where you said:... it doesn't make any sense to me that if your doors and windows are all closed that smoke will be infiltrating your house... you may want to talk with a HVAC contractor about that. Also, perhaps you should talk with the health department or environmental quality... while they may have the legal right to burn wood at the same time they don't have the right to polute. I wonder if their woodstove is in comformance with the requisite standards if it is producing that much smoke. We have a modern woodstove and when we burn wood there is very little noticeable odor when standing outside. You might try going over and talking with them and seeing if they are at all empathetic and might be willing to work with you to try to find a solution. A new woodstove would probably be cheaper than moving.

Thanks for commenting. On the day I noticed the worst of the smokey smell inside DW used the drier and that will depressurize the house and cause air infiltration.

Unfortunately, Virginia has no non-business emissions or burning regulations, except for open burning. From looking at the house and the heavy slow moving smoke output, the draft is non-existent. He's using a fireplace chimney. Fire marshall said stove is in the basement. He also said the stove and chimney were cleaned this fall (not sure if he received proof or not). Land records note house has a fireplace and an oil furnace. There are two flues in the short brick chimney (barley higher than the roof ridge). Cinderblock construction, 1200 square feet, built 1962. Roof needs replacing per shingles earing up at their corners and it has multiple patches and a blue plastic tarp over part of it. So my guess is the family has no money for repairs, fuel oil or to even purchase firewood. The owner retrieves big chunks from an uncovered wood pile to take inside as needed. There is a dumptruck on the property, and I bet he gets his wood for free from job sites.

There are several nonrunning cars on the property and assorted farm animals (none of which bother me, it's only the smoke). So I do understand their plight, feel downright bad for them and thought about extending a helping hand and perhaps creating a win/win situation for both of us, but am hesitant because I am a little apprehensive and think they might try to take advantage of the situation.

I do not wish to cause them any grief, so I do not wish to attempt to litigate (and probably would only waste money on an attorney and create grief and animosities).

We are leaning towards moving, as there are several other things we have come to dislike about our house and location. We should have been more patient and done more soul searching as to where we want to retire.

The people in our community are quite friendly, but just about everyone in our neighborhood works and I feel at times I can't relate to them. There are also many families with young scoolage children that live here. I actually refer to the place as "Whoville" from Dr. Suess' The Grinch that Stole Christmas, because that is what it reminds me of, but not in a bad way. Yesterday Santa visited the neighborhood via a fire engine, tossing out candy to all the children. I missed out on this as a child. So I have mixed emotions about all of this.

[NateW]

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Originally Posted by finnski1 Sounds like they don't really know how to burn properly. Very little smoke should come out of a properly burning wood stove. Probably burning semi green wood and closing the air intake way down on the stove to keep it smoldering and not getting too hot in the house. It is also unsafe for them as they are risking chimney fires. Not sure how to address it with them directly without causing a riff. I really feel for you as that would annoy the hell out of me. We live in the woods of NH and have a wood stove ourselves but I bought a new one that is much more efficient with a secondary burn chamber etc. We burn about 1 chord of wood per winter but use baseboard hot water as our primary heat source. If I run a wood stove constantly my house gets too hot and I end up having to open windows which kind of defeats the purpose when it is 0 degrees out. Neighbors are far enough away and I actually enjoy the mellow smell of wood burning when outside in the winter.

I was hoping the fire marshall would make an impact but it appears the stove may be oversized and the air is being choked off to control the temperature. I'm sure it is an older model and uses poor quality wood gotten for free.

When phoning the fire marshall, in addition to sharing my smoke problem with him, I expressed concern about creasote build up and chimney /house fires. A fireplace flue is being used.

I'd be in hog heaven if they could burn their stove cleanly. I'm not against them using a wood stove for heating. It's the quantity and quality of the smoke. It does not even smell like wood smoke. It's acrid, rancid, pungent and extremely offensive and downright overpowering. I actually like the smell of a limited amount of oak wood smoke, but this is nowhere near that!

[427Vette]

Why don't you go buy a bottle of booze, case of beer and a plate of Christmas cookies and go introduce yourself with these items in your hands. With these items you are bound to hit on something they might like. Start off with some small talk and maybe find some common ground with them and have a simple neighborly discussion/visit. Hopefully you can enjoy a beer together. You don't want to start off by saying that you are the guy that just bought the house right behind his and your wood smoke is pissing me off to the point that I am thinking of hiring a legal team or selling my house. Simply find a spot in the conversation to delicately insert how his method of wood burning is bothersome to you and especially your wife. Tell him about the health problems your wife is having then offer some solutions. You could bring up that you are willing at your expense have someone check out his chimney and drafting situation, buy him a newer more efficient after burn stove and maybe some dry firewood. I am guessing that they don't know how bad it is affecting you.

I am guessing that he doesn't know how to burn wood very well. He needs to be educated that smaller, hotter fire is way more clean and efficient then a large smoldering fire. He may just need a little education.

You are judging a book by it's cover by making the assumption that they are poor because of the items in their front yard or the condition of their house. I work for all different walks of life... people will fool you every time!

[MRG]

You should move. The stove is only part of your issue; the noise will start to become more noticeable as you live there. That's assuming you can get some kind of solution to the smells. Some people like the way they live and can take offense to good natured help( i.e. lemme buy you a stove) or however you want to meet your neighbor. I can see a lot of ways that ends poorly.

I wouldn't be concerned about disclosure issues down the road when you sell . We were screwed on a house with a basement that collapsed and there's not a lot of recourse.

[tb001]

I don’t know how much a winters worth of good wood would cost, but it must be cheaper than moving. And probably cheaper than all of the remediation efforts you’re making.

I would probably try and be neighborly and explain the issue, see if you could buy them a cord of wood and see if it helps. If so, I’d just offer to buy it for them, assuming we’re not talking about 1000s of dollars. Worst case scenario they try to take advantage and you just stop what you’re doing. Very little to lose, as long as you’re not approaching it with animosity.

[PoorOldCountryBoy]

OP, Just sharing my experience HTH - DW and I bought a midsize Honeywell air cleaner (for 1200 square feet) and noticed a HUGE difference in allergies this year. It works for kitchen smoke and the like as well. It has settings for allergens, germs, general cleaning. We usually use allergen setting but did run the germ setting when a neighbor stopped by unexpectedly (can't be too careful with all those COVID things running around hee hee...)



Anyway, If you are desperate they are about $150 each, pick up two from Walmart or your favorite retailer, run them 24/7 and see how they do. They run pretty quiet, btw.

[NateW]

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Originally Posted by JDARNELL I guess you will be moving?

Yes, it's looking that way.. DW is already looking online for new places. I'm beginning to downsize, getting ready for the inevitable.

[NateW]

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Originally Posted by Jerry1 First, that really sucks. I feel very bad for you. I’ve found myself in similar situations in the past, but nothing so bad as yours. Second, there’s been some good ideas already about using your HVAC to limit the issue inside your house. In that regard, I’m wondering if an HVAC person could create positive pressure in your house. I know I’ve worked in buildings where the doors won’t even shut due to positive pressure. Of course you’d have to filter the air coming in to create that pressure, but it would keep all other air out. As for selling the house, you will have a disclosure issue. You now are fully aware of this issue and denying it will put you at risk financially when the sellers find out. If it comes to selling, try to find someone who smokes in their house. They’ll not likely care. Last, contact the EPA. I understand that the city/state has a law that prevents action against wood burning stoves, but that doesn’t mean the person can pollute. There must be some limit to what an individual can disburse into the air. Another aspect is the smoke. It seems like they are burning wood that is unsuitable for the stove. While it may be true that no laws can be made against the individual, a reasonable question would be that the law does not protect individuals from burning contrary to the manufacture’s instructions/requirements. I’ve never had a wood stove, but any fire pit I’ve bought says to burn seasoned hardwood. Unfortunately, all I have to offer are random thoughts. I wish you well in dealing with this. Unfortunately, I think you’re going to end up moving or at least becoming a snowbird.

Thanks for your thoughts. I went to the USEPA website first during my research and it referred me to my state of residents Dept. Of Environmentally Quality. Virginia has no regulations other than stating smoke shall not be limited from residential wood fired appliances.

DW also wondered about the real estate disclosure issue. I just checked and luckily, Virginia is on our side this time. Here is a partial quote from Nolo on the matter: "In many states, the law requires a home seller to disclose to a potential buyer any problems or defects known about the home. In Virginia, however, the seller is obligated only to provide the buyer with a “Residential Property Disclosure Statement,” (Code of Virginia § 55-519), which contains minimal information. The first item on this disclosure form states that the seller “makes no representations or warranties about the condition of the property or its attachments.” Essentially this means the seller is not responsible for informing the buyer about anything wrong with the property, and it is up to the buyer to find any problems prior to closing..."

Also, since the smoke is not from within the property, in my opinion, may be a defect in location and not the property itself.

[NateW]

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Originally Posted by Time2 If you try to reduce the problem, one thing to work on is to have a positive pressure in the home. It is a little troublesome, because any air you introduce to raise the pressure in the home needs to be very well filtered and heated, or at least your regular furnace will end up heating it. It would be wise to seal it up well, that will reduce, needed inflow air, filter requirements, heating and fan noise.

Thanks, good information. We do need to bring in air occasionally to vent odors and get oxygen. I used to crack open a couple windows before I fully realized what was going on. That was most likely the cause of our breathing issues. I kept thinking "we need more outside air" and made it worse. I like the idea of filtering the incoming air.