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10-15-2018, 07:06 PM
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#21
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USGrant1962
Yea, better they make no progress...
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Sorry, I guess I expect more for such an obvious problem.
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10-15-2018, 09:10 PM
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#22
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: DC area
Posts: 2,479
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New proposal to required price disclosure in drug ads: https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.32447abce7b5
__________________
FI and Semi-ER March 24, 2017
Consulting to stay engaged
"All models are wrong, some are useful." - George Box
“There is always a well-known solution to every human problem: neat, plausible, and wrong.” - H.L. Mencken
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10-16-2018, 05:20 AM
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#23
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 11,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRG
While goodrx has saved me thousands it's not always the cheapest coupon. Retail me not has some meds 50% cheaper than goodrx. Happy searching.
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At least now you can ask your pharmacist if this is the cheapest option. People are gonna have to speak up.
One huge problem we have in the USA is just taking what we get from the entire establishment. We have a culture of trusting these highly trained professionals or large hospitals and taking whatever they say as gospel.
I may make some retired medical pros mad when I say this, but we need to push back and ask questions about our care, including cost. I know I did when I got on a high deductible plan.
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10-16-2018, 07:34 AM
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#24
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWras
At least now you can ask your pharmacist if this is the cheapest option. People are gonna have to speak up.
One huge problem we have in the USA is just taking what we get from the entire establishment. We have a culture of trusting these highly trained professionals or large hospitals and taking whatever they say as gospel.
I may make some retired medical pros mad when I say this, but we need to push back and ask questions about our care, including cost. I know I did when I got on a high deductible plan.
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+1
My PCP and I don't agree about much. I push back and she's not used to that. I want to understand why she tells me certain things and she's not used to someone asking why. I'll be damned if I'm doing something because of vague threats of what happened 50 years ago.
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10-16-2018, 09:17 AM
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#25
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USGrant1962
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This seems like a small but very welcome first step. Still, what does "list price" mean if nobody pays it?
What would happen if drug makers had to charge the same thing to every wholesaler/distributor, worldwide? To big pharmacy chains, Canadian pharmacies, the VA, everyone. They charge everyone, say, $2 for every 200mg tablet of Highprofimene. So, US consumers aren't subsidizing others, etc. And, then, this wholesale price would be the price disclosed in all advertising. That will rattle some cages.
I'd normally oppose this intervention in the free market, but there's no sense on pretending we have a free market today.
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10-16-2018, 09:29 AM
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#26
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
This seems like a small but very welcome first step. Still, what does "list price" mean if nobody pays it?
What would happen if drug makers had to charge the same thing to every wholesaler/distributor, worldwide? To big pharmacy chains, Canadian pharmacies, the VA, everyone. They charge everyone, say, $2 for every 200mg tablet of Highprofimene. So, US consumers aren't subsidizing others, etc. And, then, this wholesale price would be the price disclosed in all advertising. That will rattle some cages.
I'd normally oppose this intervention in the free market, but there's no sense on pretending we have a free market today.
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Good points. In this case, I think “list price”, even if it is never charged and no one pays it, still may have an impact. It makes the role of intermediaries more difficult, and will potentially allow more light to be cast on rebates and other payments, which usually do not benefit consumers and often exist in a grey, mucky, ethically dubious area.
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10-16-2018, 09:30 AM
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#27
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,656
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I'd say before regulation of wholesale price, which would be a complicated set of additional rules, why not remove the rules that prohibit getting rx from outside the US? If removing a stupid rule will work, that beats adding more rules!
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10-16-2018, 09:37 AM
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#28
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB
Good points. In this case, I think “list price”, even if it is never charged and no one pays it, still may have an impact. It makes the role of intermediaries more difficult, and will potentially allow more light to be cast on rebates and other payments, which usually do not benefit consumers and often exist in a grey, mucky, ethically dubious area.
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Plus it may have the potential to dampen some of the drug companies greed exuberant pricing policies once the public responds with an outpouring of "WTF?!!" when they learn what the drug to treat their toenail fungus costs.
__________________
Numbers is hard
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10-16-2018, 10:02 AM
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#29
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Dogpatch
Posts: 561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sengsational
I'd say before regulation of wholesale price, which would be a complicated set of additional rules, why not remove the rules that prohibit getting rx from outside the US? If removing a stupid rule will work, that beats adding more rules!
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That would be very good- I suspect serious lobby $ are working to prevent it.
For the anti-gag rule, I wish they would go further, and require pharmacists to provide price options to patients. Not everyone will know to ask for a lower price.
I found this interesting comment from a pharmacist:
"There are a lot of other games being played I believe by the middlemen and the PBMs that are involved and subcontracted for pharmacy benefits that drive up drug prices and I think this is a good first step to uncovering and shining light on some of those other practices like we've done in our state," Vinson said.
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10-16-2018, 10:12 AM
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#30
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sengsational
I'd say before regulation of wholesale price, which would be a complicated set of additional rules, why not remove the rules that prohibit getting rx from outside the US?
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That would certainly be simpler. The safety issues have been (ab)used to scuttle this in the past, but I do think there is valid reason for concern. Mr Jones ordering pills from China might be getting almost anything, and he has no effective recourse to prevent fraud. The simplest answer (IMO) is to have retail sales come through a US pharmacy/agent that is legally responsible for what they sell. We need to have somebody that can be fined or jailed if the pharmaceuticals are bogus, adulterated, etc. These pharmacies can buy the drugs wherever they want. It isn't especially difficult or expensive for them to randomly test the pharmaceuticals.
Just a few of these operations would go a long way toward driving down prices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
Plus it may have the potential to dampen some of the drug companies greed exuberant pricing policies once the public responds with an outpouring of "WTF?!!" when they learn what the drug to treat their toenail fungus costs.
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I'm wondering how the "pricing disclosure" rule is written. I'm betting the drug companies will do all they can to obfuscate the true prices. For example, if the regulation requires "price per tablet" to be disclosed, expect tablets to get tiny. "Hey, those nail fungus pills are just $1 each, that's not bad." But you need to take a handful at a time for an effective dose.
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10-16-2018, 10:15 AM
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#31
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
I'm betting the drug companies will do all they can to obfuscate the true prices.
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Ya think?
__________________
Numbers is hard
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10-16-2018, 10:22 AM
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#32
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USGrant1962
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How are they going to do that when every drug and many, many different prices depending on where you obtain it?
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10-16-2018, 10:24 AM
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#33
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivinsfan
How are they going to do that when every drug and many, many different prices depending on where you obtain it?
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The same way car manufacturers list a "sticker price" for their autos.
__________________
Numbers is hard
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Price without in-hand prescription?
10-16-2018, 10:25 AM
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#34
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,656
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Price without in-hand prescription?
Neither DW nor I have any regular prescriptions, so not much recent experience with rx shopping, but I recall once where I was trying to get a price of something after Walmart pharmacy refused to honor the GoodRX coupon.
So I'm trying to transfer the prescription and nobody I called would tell me the price unless I first transferred the prescription! I don't think the new rules will have an effect on this behavior, will they?
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10-16-2018, 10:34 AM
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#35
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
The same way car manufacturers list a "sticker price" for their autos.
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Well if they do that they will scare away all their potential users with the sticker shock.
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10-16-2018, 10:36 AM
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#36
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivinsfan
Well if they do that they will scare away all their potential users with the sticker shock.
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Which might create some pressure to hold down the cost of some of these "You want HOW MUCH?!?!!!" drug prices.
__________________
Numbers is hard
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10-16-2018, 10:40 AM
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#37
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivinsfan
Well if they do that they will scare away all their potential users with the sticker shock.
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I think that mechanism is how this works. The pharmacy companies will be incentivized to list a low/reasonable price in their direct-to-consumer advertising so that people aren't scared off. That (in theory) puts downward pressure on prices. Assumptions:
1) Consumers care about the retail list price
2) Consumers can readily get relevant information on alternatives
3 ) The information is presented in a way that they can understand
4) Consumers can/will influence the drugs their medical professionals prescribe (which is probably a good bet, since that's the primary reason the ads exist)
ETA: Ooops, cross-posted with REWahoo!
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10-16-2018, 10:43 AM
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#38
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
That would certainly be simpler. The safety issues have been (ab)used to scuttle this in the past, but I do think there is valid reason for concern. Mr Jones ordering pills from China might be getting almost anything, and he has no effective recourse to prevent fraud. The simplest answer (IMO) is to have retail sales come through a US pharmacy/agent that is legally responsible for what they sell. We need to have somebody that can be fined or jailed if the pharmaceuticals are bogus, adulterated, etc. These pharmacies can buy the drugs wherever they want. It isn't especially difficult or expensive for them to randomly test the pharmaceuticals
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If I were king of the world, I'd have every legit rx factory in the world cryptographically sign the batch and lot numbers, and put that signature on a qr code in the box. A simple phone app could determine the authenticity of the signature. If the signature proves to be authentic, the only possible conclusion is that the signature was created with the secret private key held at the factory. This is the same crypto we all trust for money purposes, applied to authenticity, but with some supply chain stuff at a central place to prevent replay attacks.
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10-16-2018, 10:46 AM
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#39
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
ETA: Ooops, cross-posted with REWahoo!
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Grape minds drink alike.
__________________
Numbers is hard
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10-16-2018, 11:25 AM
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#40
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sengsational
If I were king of the world, I'd have every legit rx factory in the world cryptographically sign the batch and lot numbers, and put that signature on a qr code in the box. A simple phone app could determine the authenticity of the signature. If the signature proves to be authentic, the only possible conclusion is that the signature was created with the secret private key held at the factory. This is the same crypto we all trust for money purposes, applied to authenticity, but with some supply chain stuff at a central place to prevent replay attacks.
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That sounds smart and workable.
I've been surprised at the % of prescription meds that are still dispensed as loose pills, it seems like something out of the '50s. I had assumed it was for space efficiency at the pharmacy, but maybe it is also to (artificially) maintain the need for rock-solid supply chain integrity (with resultant anti-competitive advantages).
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