Wrong about HRT

[Greddy]

What infuriates me is the lack of scientific research and understanding on menopause vs. say pregnancy.

You go to your doc with peri/menopause symptoms (even your older female gynos who have been thru it) and it's basically a shrug and a mystery and knowing chuckle that every woman is different, la la la. Hot flashes, crazy hormonal stuff worse then when you were a teenager? ok they say things like try yoga and tea and herbal stuff.

Compare that to pregnancy... I recently searched on books on amazon on pregnancy - over 50,000. On peri-menopause? - 2,000.

That is so true! I am getting to this age when the inevitable is starting to show that it will happen and from what I can tell, I am starting to be dealing with what must be hot flashes, and already for some time with some problems during intimacy. But whenever I bring up some issues I am recently having with my doctor, whom I have used for many years, her reaction is basically "just deal with it, and by the way, there are various aides", although she says it with fewer words than that. However, it seems clear that ultimately the effects on body and mind of this "situation" are much more significant than the amount of effort the average doctor wants to spend on it.

 

[Vinnygret]

Thanks for that info. I have already taken my second dose this week.

As for Premarin being made from horse urine, who cares if it works and doesn’t increase my risk of having a stroke. I want my sex life back! Instead of the Sahara Desert and pain I now experience. Bio identical hormones have not been proven to cause less strokes.

When my mother had her second stroke the neurologist said it was 100% the HRT when recovered my mom went to the OB doc I as a OB nurse had hand picked for her just to let her know. She was like OH! Now this happened 20 years ago and since then there have been multiple studies but keep in mind your OB isn’t going to be the one to treat your stroke. There will always be a disconnect there.

Well, I care passionately. I give thousands of dollars to animal charities, so I put my money where my mouth is. You ought to do some research about what happens to all those little foals because mama has to get pregnant again ASAP. And maybe think about how the mares are confined to their stalls so that every drop of urine can be collected. But, if it doesn't bother you, stay ignorant of the process and use the product. It's an ugly business, like the veal industry and the foie gras industry and the lamb industry, none of which I consume. I only wish I had known about what is done to these horses when I was prescribed the medication.

 

[Katsmeow]

This is interesting. I never took HRT. I wonder if it has any benefit for women who never had hot flashes or any menopausal or perimenopausal symptoms.

I always have felt sort of bad saying this....but I had no symptoms at all. One time, once only, I felt a mild wave of heat that I wondered if it was a hot flash. It lasted a few seconds and wasn't bad, just unusual.

But other than that -- nothing.

Maybe this was because my natural estrogen pre-menopause was on the lower side. I conceived through using a fertility medication.

So maybe I never noticed menopause because there wasn't a huge change. Maybe that puts me at higher risks for some thing, but that is how I was....

No one ever suggested I consider HRT since I had no symptoms of any kind.

 

[meridiver]

That’s interesting. I hadn’t realized Vivelle was bioidentical. This is one of the few areas of my health where I just did what I was told and did no research. I just felt so much better! That said, what I’m taking is expensive. It’s a combo E, P and T product. I’d love to see if I could get the same benefits from a less expensive medicine.

The generic estradiol patches are less than half the price of Vivelle. I'm currently on one called Mylan, but just switched my health plan to Kaiser and they've refilled my prescription with a different generic called DOTTI. I take the lowest dose, 0.025mg, and I haven't noticed any difference between them.

I'm in my late 50's and absolutely dreading the day that my doc tells me I'm supposed to get off the patch. I may beg to stay on it.

 

[tb001]

Katsmeow, don’t feel bad at all! Revel in it. It’s wonderful that you didn’t have major issues when going through menopause. I too struggled with fertility, but didn’t have the same luck as you have.

For me, the hot flashes were there but not debilitating, but the sleep issues were bad. I’ve always had trouble with insomnia, but since the onset of menopause I would wake up at 1am and be up the rest of the night. HRT has me sleeping like a baby for the first time in years. I have to think that’s nothing but good for mental and physical health.

Luckily I have no risk factors for cancer, so it’s an easier decision, but after seeing the difference for me, I would be tempted to take it even with some risk factors.

And meridiver, I can identify with begging to stay on it. My brain is just functioning so much better now. I still have off days, which are usually associated with poor sleep, but they’re much, much less frequent.

 

[Ginny]

Have you ever heard of this Dr. Her info changed my life.

https://store.drnorthrup.com/category/store-books/

 

[Vacation4us]

Well, I care passionately. I give thousands of dollars to animal charities, so I put my money where my mouth is. You ought to do some research about what happens to all those little foals because mama has to get pregnant again ASAP. And maybe think about how the mares are confined to their stalls so that every drop of urine can be collected. But, if it doesn't bother you, stay ignorant of the process and use the product. It's an ugly business, like the veal industry and the foie gras industry and the lamb industry, none of which I consume. I only wish I had known about what is done to these horses when I was prescribed the medication.

Good for you.

For me, read post above. I love veal. Don’t eat it often but don’t refuse to eat it either. Can’t stand the smell of lamb, yuck. Foie gras no thanks. Chicken, beef, and pork all good. Most vegetarians aren’t healthy. Have you ever seen the placenta from a vegetarian? I have it’s about half the size of a normal placenta.

And as I am sure your also a dog lover please keep em leashed and clean up their s*** the world is not your dogs toilet, your own backyard is!

But animal rights is not the topic under discussion.

Be well

 

[Greddy]

I just came across a rather good documentary about menopause called "Hot Flash Havoc", which discusses hormonal and psychological effects, including hot flashes, influences on libido, pain during intercourse, and various treatment options including HRT, both bio-identical and the earlier versions based on premarin and the like. It also tries to unravel the details of the findings of the famous earlier studies that in the public eye show the problems of HRT, and provides a more nuanced view about this. I thought it is very informative, and much better than what I could ever get out of my doctor.

Home - Hot Flash Havoc
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1495784/

 

[ElizabethT]

Anecdotal here, which is all I have to offer- Sailed through my entire lifetime with minimal issues as they pertain to being female. Expected same during pre and post menopause, but was dead wrong. Four post-meno years of awful sleep, awful hot flashes, awful fatigue, awful anxiety, awful everything. There were days I thought that my life was pretty much over if 'this' was all that was left.

So I finally broke down and went on HRT five weeks ago, at the absolutely lowest dosage available.

My life has done a full 180 turnaround in the ensuing weeks. I literally cannot believe it, even still. Superlatives, yes, because that is how it feels to finally SLEEP! And to have energy, few remaining hot flashes, and the lessening of anxiety.

I am willing to take on whatever mild risks might be associated with my two meds- Pregesteron daily and a Climara patch weekly vs. the h#ll my life had become as a result of menopause.

Life today feels WONDERFUL. If I'd have known what relief could be found I would have started HRT immediately rather than slogging it out for four years.

 

[sengsational]

I just came across a rather good documentary about menopause called "Hot Flash Havoc",
/

2012 documentary on the topic. I can't see right-off who produced it and what was the motivation. As with anything medical, I like to understand motivation and possible conflicts of interest. Not saying this documentary isn't accurate (haven't watched it, and even if I did, probably couldn't properly assess accuracy or bias), but it is 8 years old, so the thinking at the time was probably not quite aligned with more recent thinking.

 

[Greddy]

2012 documentary on the topic. I can't see right-off who produced it and what was the motivation. As with anything medical, I like to understand motivation and possible conflicts of interest. Not saying this documentary isn't accurate (haven't watched it, and even if I did, probably couldn't properly assess accuracy or bias), but it is 8 years old, so the thinking at the time was probably not quite aligned with more recent thinking.

You are very correct about trying to understand the background and motivation of producers and authors, and by the way, this should not only apply to medical issues. A lot of trouble could be avoided if everybody would use even a minimum of common sense fact checking on whatever they read or hear. It would be great if you could post what you may find; I thought it is interesting that this documentary seems to align with many of the thoughts in the link of your first post, and did so at an earlier time.

 

[Greddy]

I studied the contributors on that section of the movie's website The Experts - Hot Flash Havoc and they seem very respectable. Many of them are leading investigators in several of the large scale studies on the topic or other top level researchers and leaders of significant institutes. It also states that no pharmaceutical companies were involved in the project.

From what I understand, what is now available is an updated version from 2016, and it has generated enough interest that it was shown on PBS several times. I got the DVD version a few days ago from Amazon, but one can also stream it (also for a fee) on their site. I haven't studied what other places one may be able to get it from. But on YouTube there is what looks like a stream capture from one of the PBS broadcasts. (There is a video test picture and movie identifier for the first 90 sec, you have to forward beyond that.)

 

[Letj]

Anecdotal here, which is all I have to offer- Sailed through my entire lifetime with minimal issues as they pertain to being female. Expected same during pre and post menopause, but was dead wrong. Four post-meno years of awful sleep, awful hot flashes, awful fatigue, awful anxiety, awful everything. There were days I thought that my life was pretty much over if 'this' was all that was left.

So I finally broke down and went on HRT five weeks ago, at the absolutely lowest dosage available.

My life has done a full 180 turnaround in the ensuing weeks. I literally cannot believe it, even still. Superlatives, yes, because that is how it feels to finally SLEEP! And to have energy, few remaining hot flashes, and the lessening of anxiety.

I am willing to take on whatever mild risks might be associated with my two meds- Pregesteron daily and a Climara patch weekly vs. the h#ll my life had become as a result of menopause.

Life today feels WONDERFUL. If I'd have known what relief could be found I would have started HRT immediately rather than slogging it out for four years.

I could have written this exact post. Luckily I had a good friend who was already on it and she explained that a lot of the opposition to HRT was based on flawed data. After suffering through the perimenopausal years, I switched to estrodiol and Mirena to protect my uterus. That was absolutely life changing. I plan to stay on it for the rest of my life. The benefit for me far outweighs any risk.

 

[Greddy]

I could have written this exact post. Luckily I had a good friend who was already on it and she explained that a lot of the opposition to HRT was based on flawed data. After suffering through the perimenopausal years, I switched to estrodiol and Mirena to protect my uterus. That was absolutely life changing. I plan to stay on it for the rest of my life. The benefit for me far outweighs any risk.

That flawed data, and why they are flawed, are also discussed in this "Hot Flash Havoc" movie to which I posted a YouTube link above.

 

[tmm99]

After a year of experimentation in lowering the dosage and eventually eliminating the estradiol patch and oral natural progesterone at the advice of my family doctor in Canada (who wasn't sure if it was a good idea for me to be on it for so long (6 to 7 years)), I'm fully back on the same regimen as before, with a stamp of approval from my new OBGYN who my family doc referred me to.

According to my OBGYN, I'm low risk, so I can be on it as long as my quality of life is improved by it. The risk of breast cancer increases after being on it for 10 years (vs. 5 years), but only slightly. He even said NHRT protects the heart and bones.

I am so happy that I am back on it. I didn't realize how much NHRT was helping me until I got off it. When I was fully off it, besides having the typical hot flashes, my fingers would hurt in the morning like I had arthritis, I had cognitive difficulty (very forgetful), and I got really dry... I also lost all motivation to exercise for some reason. Zero fire in the belly, kind of feeling. I even said to myself, "Is this how old people are supposed to feel?? Maybe this is how I'm supposed to feel??" It's been several weeks since I got back on it (the lowest dosage of estradiol patch available), but I've got my pep back. I feel stronger. I'm definitely back to the old self (the younger self) that I can live with.

Obviously, this is just my case, and it doesn't apply to anybody else, but I'm feeling good

 

[Letj]

I felt somewhat the same way until I got on it. I am on the 0.075 mg and I am never getting off. It’s a risk I am willing to take for quality of life. I have energy, motivation and a joi de vive, a huge improvement to my life.

 

[Helen]

I should have looked into HRT a long time ago. I am currently 63 and started to feel the effects of perimenopause around my mid to late 40s. I never had a hot flash. My symptoms began with terrible insomnia, then added horrible anxiety. From there I started having hearing loss, distorted hearing and violent vertigo attacks where I would have to crawl to the bathroom to vomit.

My family doctor wasn't much help and I focused more on ENTs for the hearing/vertigo problems. They sent me in for an MRI which discovered an asymptomatic and unrelated brain aneurysm. The aneurysm was fixed with an endovascular coiling and the good news is my arteries are in excellent condition plus the aneurysm has been occluded.

All these years later I am down to just insomnia for my remaining symptom. I am working with a new family doctor to try and correct the problem, if that doesn't work I may consider HRT.

 

[Letj]

Drs are very unwilling to give women HRT past the critical window. That’s defined as the immediate years post menopause. After 60, they vigorously dissuade you because the risk of starting so long after menopause increases quite a bit.

 

[Helen]

Drs are very unwilling to give women HRT past the critical window. That’s defined as the immediate years post menopause. After 60, they vigorously dissuade you because the risk of starting so long after menopause increases quite a bit.

Shoot, I'm sorry to hear this. My insomnia is causing my quality of life to sink and nothing behavior wise seems to be helping. Typically, I sleep well for the first two hours then get up and read a book for fours hours before falling asleep around 6am.

Some nights the problem is that I can't fall asleep.

I can go for a month or two with good, five or six straight hours of sleep then I am back to not sleeping.

This all started with the hormonal changes. I have given up caffeine, alcohol, I exercise 1 - 2 hours a day, I wait until I am tired to go to sleep, I've cut off electronics an hour before bed, I eat a healthy diet. I'm not sure what else I can do.

I guess I will try and find a sleep specialist when I return to Portland in May.

 

[Letj]

Frankly my experience was similar. I’d sleep for 3 or 4 hours and couldn’t fall back to sleep. This went on for two long years along with anxiety. HRT took care of both problems within days of starting. No problems since.

 

[tmm99]

Shoot, I'm sorry to hear this. My insomnia is causing my quality of life to sink and nothing behavior wise seems to be helping. Typically, I sleep well for the first two hours then get up and read a book for fours hours before falling asleep around 6am.

Some nights the problem is that I can't fall asleep.

I can go for a month or two with good, five or six straight hours of sleep then I am back to not sleeping.

This all started with the hormonal changes. I have given up caffeine, alcohol, I exercise 1 - 2 hours a day, I wait until I am tired to go to sleep, I've cut off electronics an hour before bed, I eat a healthy diet. I'm not sure what else I can do.

I guess I will try and find a sleep specialist when I return to Portland in May.

I would still talk to an OBGYN who specializes in HRT to see what they have to say. Progesterone has a lot to do with sleeping IMO. My last OGBYN in California before I moved to Canada said she prescribed progesterone to some postmenopausal women without estradiol, as postmenopausal women produce estrogen called estrone (which I consider to be bad estrogen...) From my understanding, progesterone counteracts some of the problems of estrogen (eg. thickening of the endometrium which can lead to endometrial cancer, denser breast tissues, etc). Obviously, your problem may not be hormone-related, but if you have good health insurance, a visit to a good HRT OBGYN shouldn't cost much? When I was off NHRT which included natural progesterone - Prometrium 100mg every night (I couuld only take it at night as it pretty much knocks me out), I had to rely on melatonin for sleep.

BTW, I had vertigo for a few years. It was not related to hormones in my case. I had vertigo about two to three times a year for a few years. Each time, it lasted a couple of days. I would take anti-nausea meds and had to stay still and keep my head at a certain angle. Strangely, once I started playing volleyball again( I played for years in leagues, etc, but then I stopped for several years), my vertigo stopped completely. I don't know what helped, but I think it was due to increased intake of fluid (drinking a LOT of water - water with hydrating minerals as well as just plain water.) It could have been that, or I play volleyball as a setter, and as a setter, I have to spin a lot during games, and maybe that did something. Or maybe the combination of the two.

 

[Bob_Walter]

I think you should still talk to an OBGYN who specializes in HRT to see what they say. Progesterone has a lot to do with sleeping IMO. My last OGBYN in California before I moved to Canada said she prescribed progesterone to some postmenopausal women without estradiol, as postmenopausal women produce estrogen called estrone (which I consider to be bad estrogen...) Obviously, your problem may be something entirely different, but if you have good health insurance, what do you have to lose?

I had vertigo for a few years. It was not related to hormones in my case. I had vertigo about two to three times a year for a few years. Each time, it lasted a few days. I would take anti-nausea meds and had to stay still and keep my head at a certain angle. Strangely, once I started playing volleyball again( I played for years in leagues, etc, but then I stopped for several years), my vertigo stopped completely. I don't know what helped, but I think it was due to increased intake of fluid (drinking water with hydrating minerals as well as just plain water.) It could have been that, or I play volleyball as a setter, and as a setter, I have to spin a lot during games, and maybe that did something. Or maybe the combination of the two.

Sounds like ear rocks.

 

[tmm99]

Sounds like ear rocks.

Yeah it's possible. It's just that my vertigo happened in colder months when I wasn't drinking a lot of water, and once I started drinking fluid more regularly (due to being more active all the time), it stopped happening completely, so mine might have been triggered by dehydration at least partly. Just a theory though.

 

[Bob_Walter]

Yeah it's possible. It's just that my vertigo happened in colder months when I wasn't drinking a lot of water, and once I started drinking fluid more regularly (due to being more active all the time), it stopped happening completely, so mine might have been triggered by dehydration at least partly. Just a theory though.

Yes. Twenty years ago I would get drop attacks. I'd be out for the day, if I moved my head at all, tons of vertigo. I think similar to you, I was not drinking enough water.

I find it very beneficial to always have water bottles on the fridge.