Am I Crazy Crowdfunding Loans??

underwrite

Recycles dryer sheets
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
68
Location
Chicago
A few months ago I moved about $325k of my investable assets to lending sites. That’s about 25% of my portfolio. I’m 45 and still working.

$100k at Prosper, $30k at Fundrise, and $195k at Peerstreet. If the economy keeps humming, looks like I’ll average around 7% annually. If there’s an average recession, I estimate the returns at 0-4%.

With the stock market up so much and valuations quite high, I’m surprised there aren’t more folks on this site discussing this topic.

Do you think the stock market is a better place to be? Have you looked into peer to peer lendIng? Do you think my allocation to this type of lending is too high?
 
yes, you are crazy
 
No you aren't crazy for crowdfunding loans.

However, you are absolutely nuts for risking $325,000 in something that speculative. Makes no sense to me to risk that much money in something that can blow up in you face. Reduce your exposure by 90%.
 
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i tend to be very risk averse , and while i have funded one or two small projects ( where i doubt i will ever see a return of the investment let alone a profit ) , i normally look towards a better chance of returns .

peer to peer lending ?

one New Zealand company i have shares in has invested in a peer to peer lending company , i don't know if the ( peer to peer ) company will be a financial success but the listed company is so you can only hope the board of directors have crunched the numbers correctly

i have similar indirect exposure to the medical marijuana industry , again a bigger company sees potential better than the risk taken

obviously i am biased , and think you have over-invested in the peer to peer lending sector .. but at least you have spread the investment over several companies , your 0 to 4% forecast returns are unattractive to me ,

but in saying that i hope you prove me completely wrong and get those 4%( plus )returns .

i see your logic in seeking returns in a relatively new area , but goodness aren't you putting faith in the folks investing the cash on your behalf selecting the better projects .

i had a brief glance at peer-to peer but how easy is it to collect loan repayments ( many of the potential projects would never get a bank loan )

now i disagree on the 'economy humming ' BUT if the economy were to take a turn for the worse would peer to peer lending actually benefit ( as banks and traditional sources tightened lending )

lets use those brave folks who backed Jack Ma and Alibaba as an example ( at the very beginning ) a brave and passionate business person could rise to prominence amidst the chaos .

cheers and good luck
 
I have to agree, and good thing he is young enough to make it back if things go south.
Lol. Thanks for the feedback. What is your knowledge level on the topic? I only ask as I’d be curious if others have had good or bad experiences with peer to peer lending. On PeerStreet, you’re making loans of 6 to 18 months and the yields are 7 to 10%. The equity investor puts in at least 25% so you have quite a cushion if the project goes south.

Alternatively, I could keep my money in the total stock market index where many company’s earnings yields are in the 2 to 5% range.
 
*** Alternatively, I could keep my money in the total stock market index where many company’s earnings yields are in the 2 to 5% range. ***

and that is the reason i restrain myself from harsher criticism

the 'safe stock-market ' isn't so safe either

i am aggressively looking for higher yields as well ( but also very cautious ) and as mentioned at 45 you DO have a chance to recover some of the nest egg ( if things go south ) and adjust your strategy if you find a better one

good and bad experiences a quick revisit to the GFC ( and the sub-prime loans ) will give you plenty of examples of lending done poorly.
you can't expect your peer-to peer groups to operate in a superior way to the major banks in the pre-GFC days , as they will face similar performance pressures and temptations .


again i hope your investments prove me wrong
 
Lol. Thanks for the feedback. What is your knowledge level on the topic? I only ask as I’d be curious if others have had good or bad experiences with peer to peer lending.

You asked if you were crazy to do this and we gave you our subjective opinions.

I have done research on these loans and a few members here have dabbled in the process. You may get better feedback once more members have a chance to read your thread.

Here's a previous thread on your topic:

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/peer-lending-prosper-76203.html

Peer to peer lending is too much risk for me as I don't have the time left to make back any lost funds due to defaults. I have a conservative portfolio and also dabble in preferred stocks for higher yields (6 - 8%). There is a long running thread here with members who invest in preferreds.
 
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Look into deed trust investing, it’s real estate investing secured with the borrowers property, yield are 10-13%. I would favor it over crowdfunding because your principal is backed by the properties equity where as crowdfunding is backed by nothing
 
I’m deep in the red with my crypto holdings, luckily it’s(it was) only 2% of my portfolio and not 25%, it’s probably less than 1% as it stands now
 
I dabbled in Prosper years ago when I was carefully seeking higher yields. Lost money. Loans went unpaid. I only invested small amounts, and some of them higher-risk loans, but I came away very disappointed.
 
Yes, you are crazy. Or, more accurately, massively naive.

... I’d be curious if others have had good or bad experiences with peer to peer lending. On PeerStreet, you’re making loans of 6 to 18 months and the yields are 7 to 10%. The equity investor puts in at least 25% so you have quite a cushion if the project goes south. ...

What you need to understand is that no one has had useful experience with peer-to-peer lending. It is too new. Only after people have ridden it through two or three economic cycles will there be any useful information and even then it will be marginal. All you can get right now (besides hucksters' claims) is anecdotes and the majority of those will be positive because people tend not to post results when they have just flushed a bunch of money down the toilet. (Nassim Taleb refers to this as the problem of silent evidence. For example: https://www.cuinsight.com/watch-out-for-silent-evidence.html)

Another thing to understand is that the people who are borrowing this way are, by and large, doing so because they cannot get conventional financing. IOW, conventional lenders have judged them to be too risky.

There is also no "cushion." When a company goes bankrupt it is because the money is all gone. Yours and the (possibly-mythical) "equity investor." All. Gone. Your projected loss is 100%, not "0-4%"

Finally, understand that the lending site's motivation is to generate loan volume, not to maximize your financial safety. This is what is referred to as an "agency problem." (more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal–agent_problem)

Sorry to throw ice water here, but you have been drinking a massive amount of very dangerous Kool-Aid.
 
i tend to be very risk averse , and while i have funded one or two small projects ( where i doubt i will ever see a return of the investment let alone a profit ) , i normally look towards a better chance of returns .

peer to peer lending ?

one New Zealand company i have shares in has invested in a peer to peer lending company , i don't know if the ( peer to peer ) company will be a financial success but the listed company is so you can only hope the board of directors have crunched the numbers correctly

i have similar indirect exposure to the medical marijuana industry , again a bigger company sees potential better than the risk taken

obviously i am biased , and think you have over-invested in the peer to peer lending sector .. but at least you have spread the investment over several companies , your 0 to 4% forecast returns are unattractive to me ,

but in saying that i hope you prove me completely wrong and get those 4%( plus )returns .

i see your logic in seeking returns in a relatively new area , but goodness aren't you putting faith in the folks investing the cash on your behalf selecting the better projects .

i had a brief glance at peer-to peer but how easy is it to collect loan repayments ( many of the potential projects would never get a bank loan )

now i disagree on the 'economy humming ' BUT if the economy were to take a turn for the worse would peer to peer lending actually benefit ( as banks and traditional sources tightened lending )

lets use those brave folks who backed Jack Ma and Alibaba as an example ( at the very beginning ) a brave and passionate business person could rise to prominence amidst the chaos .

cheers and good luck
Thanks for the feedback.
 
No you aren't crazy for crowdfunding loans.

However, you are absolutely nuts for risking $325,000 in something that speculative. Makes no sense to me to risk that much money in something that can blow up in you face. Reduce your exposure by 90%.
Thanks for the comments. If one believes that the markets are overvalued, then where to put Some money to diversify out of the market a bit? I guess I could put it in the money market. However, even with the increase of rates the last month you’re still basically getting not much in return. I hate to lock the money up into a longer term CD with the max promised Return of 3 or 3 1/2%.
 
Look into deed trust investing, it’s real estate investing secured with the borrowers property, yield are 10-13%. I would favor it over crowdfunding because your principal is backed by the properties equity where as crowdfunding is backed by nothing
Two of the three peer to peer lending sites I mentioned are collateral backed loans. Peerstreet and Fundrise. Prosper is the only one that is truly unsecured. Obviously the rates and risk are much higher on Prosper. Anyways, thanks for your comments And I will check out your recommendation.
 
*** Alternatively, I could keep my money in the total stock market index where many company’s earnings yields are in the 2 to 5% range. ***

and that is the reason i restrain myself from harsher criticism

the 'safe stock-market ' isn't so safe either

i am aggressively looking for higher yields as well ( but also very cautious ) and as mentioned at 45 you DO have a chance to recover some of the nest egg ( if things go south ) and adjust your strategy if you find a better one

good and bad experiences a quick revisit to the GFC ( and the sub-prime loans ) will give you plenty of examples of lending done poorly.
you can't expect your peer-to peer groups to operate in a superior way to the major banks in the pre-GFC days , as they will face similar performance pressures and temptations .


again i hope your investments prove me wrong
I think lending standards are temporarily better than they had been pre-crash. I do agree with your comments that that will eventually change so it’s something that needs to be watched. For now, I feel pretty good about the lending standards that I’m seeing. The most dangerous landing platform that I use is Prosper as the loans are unsecured. There I’m concentrating my investments on individuals with higher credit ratings.
 
Thanks for the comments. If one believes that the markets are overvalued, then where to put Some money to diversify out of the market a bit? I guess I could put it in the money market. However, even with the increase of rates the last month you’re still basically getting not much in return. I hate to lock the money up into a longer term CD with the max promised Return of 3 or 3 1/2%.


i understand your quandary , i sometimes have great difficulty finding a good place to park just $5,000 , certainly not in a bank liable to freeze deposits in an economic meltdown ( when that cash can be deployed to get maximum value )

the collapses of Cyprus and Greece a few years back rewrote the rules on deposit safety .( or was that tore them up )

for example that $300,000 would have to be in 2 separate banks to be ( probably ) guaranteed by the Australian government ( it was $250,000 per bank consortium last i heard )

some of the interest-bearing securities i have researched in Australia are junk debt with lipstick and then some ETF buys them and sells them as sausage filling .

the golden formula ( for me ) is risk v. reward .. and in the current climate it is TOUGH to get a good answer
 
Invested in Lending Club for over 3 years

I initially invested 1.5% of my portfolio in Lending Club. I am 70% A and 30% B loans at 3 year duration. I have since been pulling money out for over a year and a half (Not, re-investing proceeds). Now down to 0.70% of my portfolio. The main problem as many have pointed out is that the sites are trying to get borrowers at any cost, they don't care much about the investor. Lending Club lowered their standards so much that A and B loans were having significant defaults (The supposed safest borrowers). Where they told me I should be getting 5.1% return in a healthy economy I am trending down and am barely at 4% and will likely be around 3.80% soon. This was with over 2500 Individual notes. Not terrible, but this is in a booming economy. I can only imagine where the return will be when the economy goes into a recession and more borrowers default.

I can't get out fast enough is my bottom line.

That's my .02 cents.

Troy
 
I think lending standards are temporarily better than they had been pre-crash. I do agree with your comments that that will eventually change so it’s something that needs to be watched. For now, I feel pretty good about the lending standards that I’m seeing. The most dangerous landing platform that I use is Prosper as the loans are unsecured. There I’m concentrating my investments on individuals with higher credit ratings.

lending standards in the big global players :confused:

are you sure ?

only the Australian ( and New Zealand ) and Canadian banks seem to frolic through the Basel III requirements several EU banks are on (full ) life-support AFTER being restructured to resist a total collapse ( and there has been no melt-down since the GFC ..
these are stressed in the ( allegedly ) GOOD TIMES


Stress test results signal more flexible new-look Fed


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - This year’s Federal Reserve stress test results suggested a more flexible approach, a further sign the regulator’s new leadership is responding positively to a Wall Street push for pragmatic bank supervision, analysts and lawyers said.

FILE PHOTO: The Federal Reserve headquarters in Washington, U.S., September 16, 2015. REUTERS/Kevin Lamarque/File Photo
Banks that took a one-off capital hit due to the 2017 U.S. tax overhaul got a conditional pass, a departure from the Fed’s traditional strict pass-fail approach to quantitative capital issues, while scandal-plagued Wells Fargo & Co was able to double share buyback plans.

Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley were dinged since their capital fell below the Fed’s minimum, but the regulator’s response this year sounded a more industry-friendly tone under Chairman Jerome Powell and Vice Chairman Randal Quarles, President Donald Trump appointees, analysts and lawyers said.

“They have allowed firms to pass on the basis there were special circumstances and applied a level of pragmatism in the way they haven’t in the past. This is the new Fed and it signals to me an early retirement of this super-strict quantitative test,” said Mike Alix, financial services risk leader at PwC.

The Fed on Thursday approved the capital plans of 34 lenders following the second leg of its annual tests, a process introduced after the 2007-2009 financial crisis to assess banks’ capacity to withstand a severe recession. The U.S. central bank has ramped up its worst-case scenarios each year.

The U.S. tax code rewrite signed into law in December meant Goldman and Morgan Stanley’s Thursday results were weighed, in part, by changes to the treatment of past losses on hypothetical tax bills under the Fed’s scenarios.

But since the tax issue was a one-off and capital levels in the system are high, the Fed felt it was unnecessary to fail the two banks, senior Fed officials said.

Under the conditional approvals for their capital plans, the two banks can pay out capital distributions but must keep them in line with previous years.

Some analysts pointed to the Fed’s conditional approval of State Street Corp’s higher dividend even though its counterparty exposures showed high losses under the scenarios.

“This reinforces how the Federal Reserve was less draconian in how it reacted to the results,” said Cowen Washington Research Group’s Jaret Seiberg in a note.

Wells Fargo won approval for the highest payout ratio of the major U.S. banks, quashing investor concerns it would fail the part of the test measuring operational controls.

A passing grade could signal clearer skies ahead for Wells Fargo and better relations with regulators, according to analysts at Evercore Group LLC.

Democratic U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown on Thursday criticized bank payouts to “wealthy shareholders” and warned the Fed against easing up on how it approaches the tests.

STRESS BUFFER
Lenders have long complained the stress-test process is too opaque and that the Fed has been too harsh on firms whose results fall short of models the Fed keeps secret.

Despite noting the Fed’s pragmatic stance on Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, industry insiders still questioned whether the regulator should have proceeded with the tough scenarios this year given the short-term adverse tax changes, and said they want further changes to make the process more transparent.

Powell and Quarles have said they believe stress-testing can be more transparent and less discretionary, but banks continue to worry that Fed rule-easing may not go far enough or could inadvertently make life tougher if changes are not finely tuned.

They point, for example, to the Fed’s April proposal to introduce a “stress capital buffer” that would work in tandem with the stress tests to move the system away from a strict annual quantitative pass-fail.

In a blog post published on Friday, bank trade group The Clearing House warned the proposal as written could actually exacerbate their capital planning challenges by requiring banks to capitalize themselves against stress losses year-round.

“This year’s results illustrate that capital requirements in the United States are highly volatile from year to year and that the volatility will be magnified by ... the stress buffer,” they added.

Reporting by Michelle Price and Imani Moise; Editing by Meredith Mazzilli

courtesy of Reuters

does this fill you with confidence

Basel III is a 30 day buffer to help the banks unwind dangerous positions ( and probably allow the government to bail them out again )

does that sound like ' unquestionably strong' to you :confused:
 
Yes, you are crazy. Or, more accurately, massively naive.



What you need to understand is that no one has had useful experience with peer-to-peer lending. It is too new. Only after people have ridden it through two or three economic cycles will there be any useful information and even then it will be marginal. All you can get right now (besides hucksters' claims) is anecdotes and the majority of those will be positive because people tend not to post results when they have just flushed a bunch of money down the toilet. (Nassim Taleb refers to this as the problem of silent evidence. For example: https://www.cuinsight.com/watch-out-for-silent-evidence.html)

Another thing to understand is that the people who are borrowing this way are, by and large, doing so because they cannot get conventional financing. IOW, conventional lenders have judged them to be too risky.

There is also no "cushion." When a company goes bankrupt it is because the money is all gone. Yours and the (possibly-mythical) "equity investor." All. Gone. Your projected loss is 100%, not "0-4%"

Finally, understand that the lending site's motivation is to generate loan volume, not to maximize your financial safety. This is what is referred to as an "agency problem." (more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal–agent_problem)

Sorry to throw ice water here, but you have been drinking a massive amount of very dangerous Kool-Aid.

Bullseye!
 
OP, have you been smoking crack ?

Your gambooling.....nothing wrong with that ..... 7 come 11 don't say that devil....

Ms. gamboolgal and I will be in to the USA & Vegas in about 3 weeks for a month.... See you on the green felt tables....lets gambooool !

All the best OP, really....

Ms. gamboogal & I will be in Vegas in 3 weeks, hope to play with you on the pokerzzzzzzz.....We'll primarily be at Bellagio, Aria, Wynn and Planet Hollywood.... Lets play for rollzzz...

In all seriousness, hope it works out for you pawdnaahh..

See you in Vegas baby....
 
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Thanks for the comments. If one believes that the markets are overvalued, then where to put Some money to diversify out of the market a bit? I guess I could put it in the money market. However, even with the increase of rates the last month you’re still basically getting not much in return. I hate to lock the money up into a longer term CD with the max promised Return of 3 or 3 1/2%.


One alternative I have seen mentioned by a couple folks is here:
https://www.uhaulinvestorsclub.com/InvestmentOpportunities

These are all asset-backed and are debt obligations of U-Haul's parent company.

The FAQ link on the page gives all of the relevant info.

I have not invested in these, but for someone who is looking at crowdsourcing/peer-to-peer lending, this might be an alternative to consider.

A nice feature of the plan is that you can invest as little as $100 in any of the offerings, so you can diversify across them.

I'm not offering investment advice here, simply referring to an alternative which might be suitable for the right person. As always, do your own due diligence.
 
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