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Old 02-12-2020, 10:01 AM   #21
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@MarieL, I teach a six-hour Adult-Ed class on investing. On the wrap-up slide I tell them this: "Investing is boring. If you're not bored, you're not doing it right."

With that portfolio I don't think you're bored. To echo others, it is way too complex. Waaaay too complex.

With regard to diversification you seem to be making a common mistake. The point of diversification is to own a large number of stocks (probably over 100) arranged across size, line-of-business, and geographic categories. With that number (or more) the zigs and the zags of individual stocks cancel each other out. The academics would say "You have diversified away individual stock risk, leaving only market risk, which cannot be diversified away in an equity portfolio." So ... one mutual fund with the proper constituents (like "total US market") is all you need to be diversified. And, actually, if you add little bits and snippets like a small cap fund you are reducing diversification by a tiny amount.

Back to the portfolio, I suggest that you lock your frenzied investing mouse in a closet and take time to read "The Coffee House Investor" by Bill Schultheis and "The Bogleheads Guide to Investing" by Taylor Larimore et al. After those, "Winning the Loser's Game" by Charles Ellis or "A Random Walk Down Wall Street" by Burton Malkiel.

For reference, DW and I have 90% of our seven-figure portfolio in just three funds: VTWAX, total world stocks, and two funds/US Total Market and International Total Market in a proportion that makes them behave like VTWAX. Really we should sell the two and buy VTWAX; we only hold them for obsolete historical reasons. Buying the world is the ultimate in diversification.

Relax. Get bored. And continue your good savings practices. You will win the game with patience and without needless effort.
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Old 02-12-2020, 11:16 AM   #22
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What is SoFi and why are you using it?
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Old 02-12-2020, 11:28 AM   #23
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What is SoFi and why are you using it?
It's a micro-investing app. Kind of like Robinhood, Acorns, and FirstTrade. I like using SoFi because it allows you to invest in fractional shares instead of spending more to buy the whole share. I may eventually move to a place like Vanguard if/when my portfolio value gets large enough, but for now, this has been sufficient for me for my budget, and will help me get a little better understanding of investing.
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Old 02-12-2020, 11:57 AM   #24
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I sort of set some investing "principles and guidelines"

1. is to not be too risky (like a reckless A/A)
2. 10 to 20% is reserved for Individual Equities (currently most of mine is AAPL)
3. When the other 90% of my portfolio moves 5% +/- I rebalance by basically buying into the mix that is necesarry.

For instance I own VUG (LargeCap) 53.4%, VOT (MidCap) 25.2% and VBK (SmallCap)21.4% Soo, when LargeCap pushes up to 55% I will start buying VBK (SmallCap) since that is the laggard. I will buy SmallCap at a discount relative to the rest of my asset classes for a while until it becomes over-priced again (+30% of my portfolio) That might not be for a year or so here.

This is really easy in terms of accumulation. I do the same thing every year and occasionally need to switch future contributions to match my Target Asset Allocation (A/A). I have projected with our current money going into Large and MidCap that I need to change my future withholding next month or I will exceed 55% LargeCap. I go into my 401k plan, make that change next month...and sit, wait and watch until that threshold is exceeded in any direction again. To me, this is like the second easiest thing to do than VTI. Still very diversified (although tilted to growth). I am 100% stocks so you could use this theory and introduce bonds as well but I have no need with low-risk investments of Real Estate rentals.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:14 PM   #25
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I sort of set some investing "principles and guidelines"

1. is to not be too risky (like a reckless A/A)
2. 10 to 20% is reserved for Individual Equities (currently most of mine is AAPL)
3. When the other 90% of my portfolio moves 5% +/- I rebalance by basically buying into the mix that is necesarry.

For instance I own VUG (LargeCap) 53.4%, VOT (MidCap) 25.2% and VBK (SmallCap)21.4% Soo, when LargeCap pushes up to 55% I will start buying VBK (SmallCap) since that is the laggard. I will buy SmallCap at a discount relative to the rest of my asset classes for a while until it becomes over-priced again (+30% of my portfolio) That might not be for a year or so here.

This is really easy in terms of accumulation. I do the same thing every year and occasionally need to switch future contributions to match my Target Asset Allocation (A/A). I have projected with our current money going into Large and MidCap that I need to change my future withholding next month or I will exceed 55% LargeCap. I go into my 401k plan, make that change next month...and sit, wait and watch until that threshold is exceeded in any direction again. To me, this is like the second easiest thing to do than VTI. Still very diversified (although tilted to growth). I am 100% stocks so you could use this theory and introduce bonds as well but I have no need with low-risk investments of Real Estate rentals.
I'm so confused by this process! @.@ Is this method explained on the Bogleheads website? I'm not sure when to know when a certain withholding exceeds a certain percentage.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:24 PM   #26
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I'm so confused by this process! @.@ Is this method explained on the Bogleheads website? I'm not sure when to know when a certain withholding exceeds a certain percentage.
WHEN to sell, is all relative to your risk appetite. FOR ME, I interpret owning a bunch of SMALL CAPITALIZATION companies... as a little MORE risky than owning a bunch of LARGER CAPITALIZATION companies (GOOGLE, APPLE, etc).

So when I start owning MORE small cap companies *In my example more than 30% BECAUSE I always try to hold 25% and if I own 30% it is 5% or more outside of my "threshold" aka RISK TOLERANCE I need to correct that course. Some "rebalance" by selling back into the right target A/A or for me, I just slowly DCA into the Target A/A...its *SORT OF like re balancing but I never need to really SELL anything... I don't like selling.

LOTS OF RISK = OWNING JUST GOOGLE
LOTS OF RISK = OWNING JUST LARGE CAPS like JUST VUG
LOTS OF RISK = OWNING NO LARGE CAP STOCKS

SIMPLE AND NOT MUCH RISK = VTI

A LITTLE LESS SIMPLE NOT MUCH RISK = 1/3 VBK 1/3 VOT 1/3 VUG
A LITTLE LESS SIMPLE A LITTLE MORE RISK = 1/4 VBK 1/4 VOT 1/2 VUG

Make sense?

It's just a simple pie at the end of the day. 1/4 of my pie is Small Cap companies, 1/4 of my pie is Mid Cap companies, and 1/2 of my pie is Large Companies (I take more risk by owning 50% LargeCap instead of 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3 equal asset mix)...

IF you are still accumulating, need not worry about bonds...stick to equities like your ETF
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:33 PM   #27
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WHEN to sell, is all relative to your risk appetite. FOR ME, I interpret owning a bunch of SMALL CAPITALIZATION companies... as a little MORE risky than owning a bunch of LARGER CAPITALIZATION companies (GOOGLE, APPLE, etc).

So when I start owning MORE small cap companies *In my example more than 30% BECAUSE I always try to hold 25% and if I own 30% it is 5% or more outside of my "threshold" aka RISK TOLERANCE I need to correct that course. Some "rebalance" by selling back into the right target A/A or for me, I just slowly DCA into the Target A/A...its *SORT OF like re balancing but I never need to really SELL anything... I don't like selling.

LOTS OF RISK = OWNING JUST GOOGLE
LOTS OF RISK = OWNING JUST LARGE CAPS like JUST VUG
LOTS OF RISK = OWNING NO LARGE CAP STOCKS

SIMPLE AND NOT MUCH RISK = VTI

A LITTLE LESS SIMPLE NOT MUCH RISK = 1/3 VBK 1/3 VOT 1/3 VUG
A LITTLE LESS SIMPLE A LITTLE MORE RISK = 1/4 VBK 1/4 VOT 1/2 VUG

Make sense?

It's just a simple pie at the end of the day. 1/4 of my pie is Small Cap companies, 1/4 of my pie is Mid Cap companies, and 1/2 of my pie is Large Companies (I take more risk by owning 50% LargeCap instead of 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3 equal asset mix)...

IF you are still accumulating, need not worry about bonds...stick to equities like your ETF
Okay, thanks for explaining this! So I'm curious, would I be better off doing your method instead of the 80/20 Core Four method on Bogleheads? Also, why is it bad to invest in bonds while in my 30s? I was under the impression that I should cover every possible thing to help accumulate wealth faster, since I would be diversified in that aspect. I'm just trying to understand!
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:35 PM   #28
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@MarieL you're not alone. If it is any consolation @kgtest's system is confusing reading for me as well. Roughly, it looks like @kgtest has a portfolio that somewhat underweights large caps, which are about 80% of the market on a cap-weighted basis but 53.4% in this portfolio. I am not sure about the mid- and small- cap weightings but one or both of them have to be overweight if large caps are underweight.

This type of thing is more investing work than I personally want to do. Also, there is no way to know whether the revised weighting will produce better total returns in the future and it will take 5-10 years to find out. So we stick to simple total market funds, really just the one -- VTWAX.

Another thing to realize is that in investing the word "risk" is commonly used as a synonym for "volatility." That's a big problem because for a long-term investor, particularly one like you who are in the accumulation phase, volatility really doesn't matter much. Really the risk is getting on the wrong boat by trying to pick individual stocks or sectors, then not realizing it for the 5-10 years it will take to test the strategy. All the research and statistics lead to the same conclusion: We should buy "the market portfolio," which is everything.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:46 PM   #29
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@MarieL you're not alone. If it is any consolation @kgtest's system is confusing reading for me as well. Roughly, it looks like @kgtest has a portfolio that somewhat underweights large caps, which are about 80% of the market on a cap-weighted basis but 53.4% in this portfolio. I am not sure about the mid- and small- cap weightings but one or both of them have to be overweight if large caps are underweight.

This type of thing is more investing work than I personally want to do. Also, there is no way to know whether the revised weighting will produce better total returns in the future and it will take 5-10 years to find out. So we stick to simple total market funds, really just the one -- VTWAX.

Another thing to realize is that in investing the word "risk" is commonly used as a synonym for "volatility." That's a big problem because for a long-term investor, particularly one like you who are in the accumulation phase, volatility really doesn't matter much. Really the risk is getting on the wrong boat by trying to pick individual stocks or sectors, then not realizing it for the 5-10 years it will take to test the strategy. All the research and statistics lead to the same conclusion: We should buy "the market portfolio," which is everything.
Haha, I hear you! Unfortunately, I don't have access to VTWAX, so I will need to find an alternate Vanguard one that does the same. I'm definitely trying to be as aggressive as I can with my investing right now, knowing the full risks. But as you said, I am in my accumulation phase.

And btw, I just checked out the audiobook of A Random Walk down Wall Street and will listen to this during my work commute!
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Old 02-12-2020, 01:41 PM   #30
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... I don't have access to VTWAX, so I will need to find an alternate Vanguard one that does the same. ...
Well, one thing you should probably think about is called "home country bias." Currently the US is about 55% of the world market cap, so a portfolio like VTWAX that has no home country bias will be at about 45% international stocks. I think most people around the forum here do not go that high. Numbers like 30% seem to be more popular. Reasons vary. Here is an 8-minute video on the subject: https://famafrench.dimensional.com/v...home-bias.aspx

As far as duplicating VTWAX, you can easily do it with 55% in a US total market fund and 45% in an international total market fund. You will have to check the exact percentages and maybe adjust every year or two, but being exact is not critical. Or you can add home country bias by increasing the 55% number. I'm sure someone will be along soon to argue that 45% is too much foreign exposure and give his/her reasons.

Different subject: You mentioned bonds. Basically the bond portion of a portfolio takes reduced total return in exchange for for reduced volatility. This is fairly necessary when a person is drawing on his/her portfolio because of something called "Sequence of Returns Risk." Secret code here is SORR. The reason @kgtest says you don't need bonds (and I agree) is that you are accumulating and really don't care about volatility during this phase. In fact, volatility can even be your friend because whenever the market takes a dive your $100 will buy more shares that it did previously. For you, a dip means that stocks have gone on sale.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:19 PM   #31
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Haha, I hear you! Unfortunately, I don't have access to VTWAX, so I will need to find an alternate Vanguard one that does the same. I'm definitely trying to be as aggressive as I can with my investing right now, knowing the full risks. But as you said, I am in my accumulation phase.

And btw, I just checked out the audiobook of A Random Walk down Wall Street and will listen to this during my work commute!
The ETF VT, which I think the OP probably can buy via SoFi is identical to VTSAX.

I recommended VT as a simple solution in posts #7 and #15.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:36 PM   #32
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The ETF VT, which I think the OP probably can buy via SoFi is identical to VTSAX.

I recommended VT as a simple solution in posts #7 and #15.
I looked up what the difference was between VT and VTI and found this site: https://www.askfinny.com/compare/VTI-vs-VT

It seems VTI yields higher returns so I am wondering if VTI would be better for me instead of VT?
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:52 PM   #33
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I looked up what the difference was between VT and VTI and found this site: https://www.askfinny.com/compare/VTI-vs-VT

It seems VTI yields higher returns so I am wondering if VTI would be better for me instead of VT?
That's kind of apples and oranges. VT is total international and VTI is total US market. So you probably want to decide on home country bias and then buy a combination of two funds like those two. Fido and Schwab have similar "pairable" funds.

VTI's higher returns reflect the fact that for the last decade the US market has been stronger than the international market. In the prior decade it was the opposite. Lately I have been seeing articles that speculate that it will again be international's turn in the next decade. But that and $5 will get you a fancy coffee. Nobody knows the future.
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Old 02-12-2020, 07:17 PM   #34
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It's a micro-investing app. Kind of like Robinhood, Acorns, and FirstTrade. I like using SoFi because it allows you to invest in fractional shares instead of spending more to buy the whole share. I may eventually move to a place like Vanguard if/when my portfolio value gets large enough, but for now, this has been sufficient for me for my budget, and will help me get a little better understanding of investing.
This was confusing to me. When you described the rationale for buying fractional shares I was expecting to see a bunch of individual stocks in your portfolio. You have mostly mutual and ET funds which all offer purchase of fractional shares regardless of where you purchase. Maybe this was mentioned by another member but I didn’t see it mentioned.

Fractional shares and diversification is a basic feature of almost any mutual or ET fund.

Congratulations on getting started.
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Old 02-12-2020, 08:22 PM   #35
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That's kind of apples and oranges. VT is total international and VTI is total US market. So you probably want to decide on home country bias and then buy a combination of two funds like those two. Fido and Schwab have similar "pairable" funds.

VTI's higher returns reflect the fact that for the last decade the US market has been stronger than the international market. In the prior decade it was the opposite. Lately I have been seeing articles that speculate that it will again be international's turn in the next decade. But that and $5 will get you a fancy coffee. Nobody knows the future.
Agree with all you wrote... but to be clear VT is total world (US and international)... not total international and VTI is total US market.

VT is the ETF versions of VTWAX... Vanguard Total World Stock Index Fund.

VTI is the ETF version of VTSAX... Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund.
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Old 02-12-2020, 09:08 PM   #36
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Thx for the correction.
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:30 AM   #37
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This was confusing to me. When you described the rationale for buying fractional shares I was expecting to see a bunch of individual stocks in your portfolio. You have mostly mutual and ET funds which all offer purchase of fractional shares regardless of where you purchase. Maybe this was mentioned by another member but I didn’t see it mentioned.

Fractional shares and diversification is a basic feature of almost any mutual or ET fund.

Congratulations on getting started.
I currently do fractional investing with Tesla, and I did some with a few other individual companies when I first got started. Also, I never got the option to do fractional investing with some of the Vanguard ones when I was first looking into this on the main Vanguard site. You had to buy an entire share outright, which was beyond my budget at the time. Some of the Vanguard ones that are offered to me via SoFi allow me to do fractional investing.
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:48 AM   #38
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I am using SoFi Invest because I love that you can invest in fractional shares instead of buying a whole share in one lump sum. This has been very budget friendly for me, since I only have $100 per month (for now) to allocate.

I would like to know if I am making the right choices with these stocks or should I consider others? I tried to pick ones that were high dividend yields, REITs, and all the Vanguard ones that I have access to.

Trying to do all the smart things on my path to FI/RE!

Thank you in advance!

Here is a portfolio for you that will cover a lot of asset classes, be globally diversified, generate a high amount of current income, and provide income growth over time.

25% into etf VYM (Vanguard High Div Yield US)
25% into etf VYMI (Vanguard High Div Yield Foreign)
10% into etf REET (iShares Global REITs)
5% into etf QYLD (GlobalX Nasdaq Covered Calls)
5% into etf ALTY (GlobalX Alternative Assets)
5% into etf PCEF (Invesco CEF Income Composite)
5% into etf YYY (YieldShares CEF High Income)
5% into etf BIZD (VanEck BDC Income)
5% into etf MLPX (GlobalX MLP & Energy Infrastructure)
5% into etf XMPT (VanEck Municipal Bond CEFs)
5% into etf PFFA (Virtus Infracap US Preferred Stock)
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:00 AM   #39
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Here is a portfolio for you that will cover a lot of asset classes, be globally diversified, generate a high amount of current income, and provide income growth over time.

25% into etf VYM (Vanguard High Div Yield US)
25% into etf VYMI (Vanguard High Div Yield Foreign)
10% into etf REET (iShares Global REITs)
5% into etf QYLD (GlobalX Nasdaq Covered Calls)
5% into etf ALTY (GlobalX Alternative Assets)
5% into etf PCEF (Invesco CEF Income Composite)
5% into etf YYY (YieldShares CEF High Income)
5% into etf BIZD (VanEck BDC Income)
5% into etf MLPX (GlobalX MLP & Energy Infrastructure)
5% into etf XMPT (VanEck Municipal Bond CEFs)
5% into etf PFFA (Virtus Infracap US Preferred Stock)
Wow, thanks for this! I noticed VTI is not part of this. Is there a reason why? I have seen more people doing dividend investments as of late, so I'm curious as to why this is a current trend, or is it just better over all?
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:22 AM   #40
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Wow, thanks for this! I noticed VTI is not part of this. Is there a reason why? I have seen more people doing dividend investments as of late, so I'm curious as to why this is a current trend, or is it just better over all?
VTI is a good etf in general. You could replace VYM with VTI in this example, or replace both VYM and VYMI with the etf VT.

I would actually say that investing for dividend income is what has been done normally historically and that "total return" investing is actually the new trend.

Stock buybacks used to be illegal as price manipulation until sometime in the 80s. The only way for a company to return money to shareholders was through dividends.

The US has had a very anomalous history since the end of WW2. The US has around 4% of the world population but US stocks make up almost 50% of the global market cap. There will eventually come a time when investing for capital gains doesn't work for decades (as it had in the past). Once this happens all this total return stuff will be tossed out the window again and people will go back to investing for dividends.
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