Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-11-2020, 06:32 PM   #5461
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,203
Just did a quick google.. maybe this is what you want?


https://www.preferred-stock.com/calculator_ytc.php




Or possibly this?


https://dqydj.com/bond-yield-to-worst-calculator/
Texas Proud is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 11-11-2020, 07:10 PM   #5462
Full time employment: Posting here.
Coolius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 862
Sunset, as long as you buy shares up to the day before XD ( and hold it through the day ), you get the dividend.


So if you buy on 11/12 ( tomorrow ), yes, you receive the dividend.


Bear in mind that the Share Price will adjust down to reflect XD when trading opens on 11/13.



After that, normal ups & downs of the market will prevail, so there's no telling if share price ends above or below the previous day's close.
Coolius is offline  
Old 11-11-2020, 08:00 PM   #5463
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolius View Post
MNR-C has not finished over $25 for about 2 months. When I read HappyRas's post, had to confirm for myself, and indeed it did close today at $25.09.


A pleasant surprise.


I hold a reasonable amount, average cost basis $24.95. Fully expecting it to be called at first opportunity ( Sept 15, 2021 ).

With few opportunities, I bought about 600 of MNR-C at $24.88 a week or so ago, figuring it will trickle north approaching exD. I suspect the reason this issue stays just under par most of the time is MNR uses this as an ATM all the time. This company definitely caters to high quality IG tenants mostly Fed Ex though.
Mulligan is offline  
Old 11-12-2020, 12:58 PM   #5464
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
Learned something new today.

I wanted to buy some RZB and Fidelity would not allow me to buy it online so I had to call in. From what the helpful guy at the fixed income trading desk said, it seems that to protect me that Fido doesn't allow online trades for any fixed-to-floating rate preferreds, even though the floating rate of 3-month LIBOR + 4.04% doesn't bite until June 2026 and the issue is rated BBB+ by S&P.

As part of the conversation I asked him if they had any useful screener tools for preferred stocks and baby bonds beyond the preferred stock screener. He said no and added that baby bonds were also on the list of things that I would have to call in on... though I was able to buy all the AGOPRB that I wanted so I'm skeptical on the baby bond thing.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline  
Old 11-12-2020, 01:16 PM   #5465
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,691
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
Learned something new today.

I wanted to buy some RZB and Fidelity would not allow me to buy it online so I had to call in. From what the helpful guy at the fixed income trading desk said, it seems that to protect me that Fido doesn't allow online trades for any fixed-to-floating rate preferreds, even though the floating rate of 3-month LIBOR + 4.04% doesn't bite until June 2026 and the issue is rated BBB+ by S&P.

As part of the conversation I asked him if they had any useful screener tools for preferred stocks and baby bonds beyond the preferred stock screener. He said no and added that baby bonds were also on the list of things that I would have to call in on... though I was able to buy all the AGOPRB that I wanted so I'm skeptical on the baby bond thing.
Yeah, I find Fidelity wants to protect me from myself way too often. Fortunately, E-Trade gives me credit as being smart enough to know what I want to do and doesn't put in some obstacles to buying what I want. After having both, I find I just prefer E-Trade over Fido so have most of my "fun" money sitting there vs. Fido.
bobandsherry is offline  
Old 11-12-2020, 01:17 PM   #5466
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
Yeah... and I'm guessing that Vanguard would likely be even more restrictive than Fido.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline  
Old 11-12-2020, 03:39 PM   #5467
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
Question: Does anyone know a source of yield-to-call information for preferreds?

I'm getting tired of doing Excel XIRR calculations by hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Just did a quick google.. maybe this is what you want?


https://www.preferred-stock.com/calculator_ytc.php




Or possibly this?


https://dqydj.com/bond-yield-to-worst-calculator/
While I was hoping to find a source where Y-T-C was already calculated and displayed for a particular ticker, I ended up designing an Excel worksheet based on the links that TP suggested... I input the purchase date, call date, coupon, frequency, purchase price and call price/par.... and then calculate the yield-to-call using Excel's RATE function. With a spreadsheet I can save the calculation for future reference.

I compared it to XIRR for a few issues and it is pretty close.... really close if the term is more than a few years but less close if the term is short... but plenty good for my purposes.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline  
Old 11-12-2020, 06:45 PM   #5468
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,691
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
While I was hoping to find a source where Y-T-C was already calculated and displayed for a particular ticker, I ended up designing an Excel worksheet based on the links that TP suggested... I input the purchase date, call date, coupon, frequency, purchase price and call price/par.... and then calculate the yield-to-call using Excel's RATE function. With a spreadsheet I can save the calculation for future reference.

I compared it to XIRR for a few issues and it is pretty close.... really close if the term is more than a few years but less close if the term is short... but plenty good for my purposes.
XIRR always returns an annualized compound rate, so could be why you are getting different result for short term. RATE returns periodic returns. IRR is also useful, it returns periodic return as well.

RATE is probably best since cash flows would all be the same and with regular intervals. IRR is when cash flows vary but under regular intervals. And XIRR is useful when cash flows and intervals both are varied.
bobandsherry is offline  
Old 11-12-2020, 07:15 PM   #5469
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
Yes, I later realized that XIRR gives me a compounded return and I had to modify the YTC formula to reflect compounding by using =((1+RATE)^n)-1.... and that gave me a result that was the same as XIRR in a test where all the periods are aligned.

So if I had a 10% bond as an example, if it paid semi-annually the APY is really 10.25% [(1+10%/2)^2]-1, as is the same as the XIRR.

As a practical matter, there is still a diference because the first period is less than 3 months until the next dividend but the RATE calculation actually understates the result compared to XIRR so I'm ok with using easier RATE calculation for decision making.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline  
YTC tool
Old 11-13-2020, 02:36 PM   #5470
Confused about dryer sheets
Green_and_Gold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Oldest City in USA
Posts: 3
YTC tool

I use this tool:
https://gpi.fidelity.com/ftgw/interfaces/pyc/
A couple of notes:
- May not work if logged to your Fido account. I either log out or use a different browser.
- Fill in all info and run it twice. After first run, note the "Accrued Interest" amount. Subtract the "Accrued Interest" amount from "Purchase Price" and run again. The "Invoice Price" should now be equal to intended purchase price and the right YTC should be displayed.

Best regards, No. 12
Green_and_Gold is offline  
Old 11-14-2020, 04:26 AM   #5471
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 179
I think you want to be careful with simply looking at yield to call as what will happen is it will drive you toward more lower quality preferreds. For example you can buy a preferred at $21 today that will show a very nice yield to call but there is a reason its $21. Conversely if you look at very high quality preferreds (think JPM) they are going to be well above par and thus the YTC is going to be like a CD (or worse). Low quality and you risk default or suspension of dividends so you need to do your homework.

I tend to buy preferreds as CD replacements and aim to buy below par and then just hold to the call. (This also has its risks because if rates go up it may never be called or the price may become depressed and then you are stuck with something which is paying below market, but that's another story.) Others buy and trade them like stocks which is also fine I suppose but given the illiquid nature of preferreds I leave that to the pros.

For someone who is new to preferred investing here are the basic elements I would look at before buying:

1. Quality - Are they investment grade? Most of the Banks and large Utilities are, but rates will also be lower in return for this safety.
2. Are dividends cumulative if the company decides to halt them? Not that important if the stock is IG, more important if not.
3. Are the dividends qualified for tax purposes? i.e MNR/C is not a qualified dividend nor are any issued by REITs. Banks are generally qualified.
4. Current yield and YTC. Already discussed....
5. Liquidity (ease of buying and selling). This can become an issue if rates start to rise and you see the price of your preferred dropping......

My two cents - right now high quality preferred stocks are expensive but you can still beat a CD pretty easily in a quality issuance.

Good luck.
53anddone is offline  
Old 11-14-2020, 06:30 AM   #5472
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by 53anddone View Post
I think you want to be careful with simply looking at yield to call...
I don't think that I ever said that. I am interested in Y-T-C simply because I have had a number of preferreds called over the last year or so and don't want to get stuck with a loser.

More than 75% of my tickers are investment grade and 93% are BB or better with only 7% not rated.

If you aim to buy preferreds below par you must not be buying much these days.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline  
Old 11-14-2020, 07:04 AM   #5473
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green_and_Gold View Post
I use this tool:
https://gpi.fidelity.com/ftgw/interfaces/pyc/
A couple of notes:
- May not work if logged to your Fido account. I either log out or use a different browser.
- Fill in all info and run it twice. After first run, note the "Accrued Interest" amount. Subtract the "Accrued Interest" amount from "Purchase Price" and run again. The "Invoice Price" should now be equal to intended purchase price and the right YTC should be displayed.

Best regards, No. 12
That's the best one that I have seen so far.

Now if I could only find one where I input the preferred stock ticker symbol and all the other fields are populated automatically!

And I like the idea of adjusting the purchase price for accrued interest as it better aligns the RATE based yield calculation with the XIRR so I've added that to my model.

Thanks from a fellow TB12 fan.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline  
Old 11-14-2020, 08:29 AM   #5474
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
I don't think that I ever said that. I am interested in Y-T-C simply because I have had a number of preferreds called over the last year or so and don't want to get stuck with a loser.



More than 75% of my tickers are investment grade and 93% are BB or better with only 7% not rated.



If you aim to buy preferreds below par you must not be buying much these days.


Nope, mostly on the sidelines at the moment.
53anddone is offline  
Old 11-14-2020, 09:33 AM   #5475
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
Shazam! I've been using the Fidelity preferred stock screener and for sh!ts and giggles figured that I'd see what Vanguard offered... I found that their screener include YTW!

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/StocksScreenerSec
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline  
Old 11-14-2020, 10:02 AM   #5476
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by 53anddone View Post
Nope, mostly on the sidelines at the moment.
Why would you be hesitant to pay more than par/call price as long as the yield and Y-T-C are attractive? IOW, if the Y-T-W exceeds my yield target I don't mind paying more than par/call price.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline  
Old 11-14-2020, 10:04 AM   #5477
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,691
Here's a tutorial and includes link to accompanying spreadsheet which calcs the current yield, YTC and YTM.

Microsoft Excel Bond Yield Calculations | TVMCalcs.com
bobandsherry is offline  
Old 11-14-2020, 06:01 PM   #5478
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9,343
53, Just a couple added thoughts. Reit preferreds do get a tax break now thanks to Trump tax cuts. Just not as much as a QDI preferred.

https://ldrcapitalmgmt.com/wp-conten...2018wTable.pdf

My opinion on liquidity is a bit different. For example March 2020 preferred stock route was totally in liquid preferreds. Many IG liquid preferreds tanked close to 50%. While illiquid preferreds didnt hardly move a blip. It made me a killing...I sold my illiquids and rolled into the routed liquid IG preferreds and road them back to par, and then bought the illiquids back.
Of course if the float is 1000 shares and never trades you dont want to own 800 of them, lol... But I do own 101 shares of an old illiquid non callable ute that only has a tradeable float of less than 250 shares. But I aint ever selling, lol.
Mulligan is offline  
Old 11-16-2020, 09:40 AM   #5479
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post

Now if I could only find one where I input the preferred stock ticker symbol and all the other fields are populated automatically!
Man, if quantumonline did this it would be awesome. Seems like a logical upgrade to that site
brokrken is offline  
Old 11-16-2020, 12:16 PM   #5480
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
+1 while I like quantumonline, I really hate having to jump back and forth from quantum to marketwatch or whatever to see prices and yields.

I did find the info on the Vanguard screener better than anything that I have seen... but if quantum could include price, yield and yield-to-call that would be the cat's meow.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:51 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.