So we FINALLY have a SEC approved BTC ETF!

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It is not frozen in time. Developers actively work on it for improvements without disturbing the original foundation.

https://decrypt.co/66740/who-are-the-fastest-growing-developer-communities-in-crypto

"There are more than 8,000 monthly active developers working on various cryptocurrency projects, according to the Developer Report, produced by Electric Capital, a venture firm, with some 80% of those developers starting in the last two years. "

Gold can certainly be hacked. Fake bars have been found. Nothings is 100% safe of course.

Its a good point on the code. Many who are new to the space and trying to understand Bitcoin are truly not aware that BTC has the world's best and brightest constantly working on improvements, methodically and very carefully improving the code, and how we carefully review any proposed improvements, voted on, and incorporate etc. They also don't realize how all this is public, and how anyone can participate. Nor that there is an economic incentive among all, to improve (as opposed to harm) this incredibly important technological innovation.

Once the doubters understand that, the next question becomes "Oh well, in that case, what if someone hacks the code and makes more coins" or something like that.:facepalm:

Part of the problem is that many of the older generation do not have a fundamental understanding of mathematics and programming or how a decentralized proof of work blockchain works. Perhaps they even have an inherent destruct for technology, hence the "Oh well at least with gold I can touch it", that used to be a common FUD a few years back.

The irony of course being that the same skeptics (at least those here in the US) seem to blindly trust an electronic record of every devaluing fiat currency, presented to them by a (high leveraged bank), which they believe is "their money" but is actually simply a right they have against the bank as a creditor. (We would find a very different attitude among other pasts of the world, who have experienced bank collapses and rapid currency devaluations.

Comments on a few other of the questions above:

The "generational thing" is also not just that a younger generation is more familiar with tech / cloud / and digital assets, but also that they take a more global view of the world, as are less "materialistic and more focussed on experiences vs physical assets).

But perhaps most importantly its this - the "older generation"* typically unquestioningly believe that it is the Government which should decide how we should store value, and what we should use to exchange value with each other. The "new generation" have figured out that there is an entire ecosystem of value, accessible and acceptable globally, which requires no intermediary, has no counter party risk, and operates outside of any Government control.

These terms are of course generalizations. They are not intended to be offensive - each person can decide which category they call into, and whether age is a number or a mind-set.

To the person who asked why I don't have all of my wealth in Bitcoin the answer basically is that there are benefits in diversification, both in building wealth but even more so in protecting it. I explained above in an earlier post, that for most people, Bitcoin should essentially be viewed as a hedge or insurance against a range of scenarios. I won't go over all these scenarios in this post, but if certain things were to occur, you could see the value of a Bitcoin hit phenomenal levels (USD 5m+ in today's values). So this is why I would suggest allocating only 1% or so of your total worth to BTC as a starting point. For me I started with around 1% and it grew over time of my total net worth as I HODL'ed. I don't plan to use any of that for at least the next decade, but its good to know its there. It gives me a range of unique options and protections that no other asset class I have does. I do know a number of people in the wealth range of 5-20m who have the majority of their wealth in BTC. Some are 80%+, some in in 40% range, some 25%ish. To me that's a scary amount to have in any asset class, but furtune favours the brave - I hope its works out for them. To some extent its self-reinforcing - the people at the parties we go to, the types of people we mix with, the scene of entrepreneurs, open-minded people, elderly HNWs who are still nimble and young at heart, the global nomad scene, the various countries we go to, etc etc,

It should be apparent from threads like this, that once a person gets exposure to Bitcoin, they have numerous incentives to encourage others to do so also. To me this is not a phenomenon what should anger of upset others. Rather we should look at the phenomenon and consider how best to benefit from it. The amazing thing is that everyone's incentives are aligned, from the housewife in Venezuela, to the coffee trader in El Salvador, to the arms dealer in Russia, to the divorced HNW in Paris, to the tech entrepreneur in Berlin, to the Only Fan's performer in Nebraska, to the banker in New York, to the taxi driver in Korea. And then add in the banks, funds, insurers, Universities, sports clubs, unions, companies with unutilized (declining in value) cash on their balance sheets. Its a beautiful thing, and open for anyone to join on an equal footing.

For those who understand the viral potential of a new monetary technology like this, and then combine that with the knowledge of what is happening on a macro-economic scale (not just here but globally), Bitcoin really is a no-brainer.
 
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... Part of the problem is that many of the older generation do not have a fundamental understanding of mathematics and programming or how a decentralized proof of work blockchain works. Perhaps they even have an inherent destruct for technology, ...

You mean that generation that made home computers and smart phones possible? :facepalm:

Again, broad generalizations don't help your cause. You just keep digging though, it's almost entertaining.

-ERD50
 
Yeah, me I guess. Electrical engineer. Math? Dunno anything about it.
 
The amazing thing is that everyone's incentives are aligned, from the housewife in Venezuela, to the coffee trader in El Salvador, to the arms dealer in Russia, to the divorced HNW in Paris, to the tech entrepreneur in Berlin, to the Only Fan's performer in Nebraska, to the banker in New York, to the taxi driver in Korea. And then add in the banks, funds, insurers, Universities, sports clubs, unions, companies with unutilized (declining in value) cash on their balance sheets. Its a beautiful thing, and open for anyone to join on an equal footing.

No, not everyone's incentives are aligned. Governments and central banks are almost universally against cryptocurrencies. These entities are made up of people who are trying to eliminate money laundering and tax evasion among other things.

And even among the groups you listed, some own bitcoin because their own country's currency is in trouble, some as speculation, some likely to avoid taxes, and many other reasons.

If you are speculating, your main concern is increase in value.

If you are avoiding taxes, your main interest is secrecy from governments.

If your country's currency is in danger, your interest is stability.

What happens if the world's governments collectively put pressure on "bitcoin" (in quotes because I realize it is not an organization or centralized) and "bitcoin" gives in and introduces a high degree of transaction transparency to make it useless for money laundering? Big sales = big drop in value.

In many ways, stability, lack of transparency, and increase in value compete with each other.

I bet the Venezuelans who bought it for stability were thrilled when it hit $60k, horrified when it dropped back to $30k, and likely started selling out and buying gold or USD!
 
They also don't realize how all this is public, and how anyone can participate.

So you are saying that Russian hackers and ransomware operators can participate in modifying bitcoin code? That's reassuring!

Seriously, you said "we" implying you are part of the development team. With so much at stake, how is operational security dealt with? Even if you all vote, what if you are infiltrated with voters who undermine the system and build themselves a backdoor to use a few years from now?

None of these things you are "educating" us about are very reassuring. When I asked my original question I viewed bitcoin as secure but tainted by its association with criminal activity. I still think it is too closely associated with criminal activity but all your posts intended to convince people to buy bitcoin have led me to now believe it is NOT secure.
 
Thanks for looking around for the criminal use statistics. Yes, this is a tough crowd. BTC is a controversial topic in the same way Dividends,etc. raises the ire of some frequent posters.

The crux of this divide is that you are solidly in a different generation, and will go forward with coin on your ledger. Whether a pariticular argument is weak or strong, coin will go on irregardless. At a certain age people become hardened to anything that might upset their 100% correct model of the universe. One day this will be you!

I know that coin will continue to take root for many reasons. I offer this article as something that better describes what is going on generationally in Philadelphia, and of course in other cities. I choose to be a simple observer of changes like this, and don't think of it as a battle cry.

https://philadelphiaweekly.com/the-bitcoin-boom-in-philly/

I have mined a small amount of HNT coin in the past six months. I read a book. It's an interesting topic.

I have no interest in the Church of the Holy Algorithm, but I do have strong feelings about the use of the non-word "irregardless".
I quoted my entire response for readers, as well as yours. I'm not surprised by the tone of your response, but wondering what it adds to this thread?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless

I'll work from the M-W dictionary if you don't mind. Language does change with the times, sometimes while we're not looking.
 
In my experience, when the software folks start making "improvements" something breaks!
+1000

Made a career asking "what changed?".

But I'm sure this old guy, whose carreer was keeping financial services applications running, isn't smart enough to understand bitcoin.
 
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No, not everyone's incentives are aligned. Governments and central banks are almost universally against cryptocurrencies. These entities are made up of people who are trying to eliminate money laundering and tax evasion among other things.

And even among the groups you listed, some own bitcoin because their own country's currency is in trouble, some as speculation, some likely to avoid taxes, and many other reasons.

If you are speculating, your main concern is increase in value.

If you are avoiding taxes, your main interest is secrecy from governments.

If your country's currency is in danger, your interest is stability.

What happens if the world's governments collectively put pressure on "bitcoin" (in quotes because I realize it is not an organization or centralized) and "bitcoin" gives in and introduces a high degree of transaction transparency to make it useless for money laundering? Big sales = big drop in value.

In many ways, stability, lack of transparency, and increase in value compete with each other.

I bet the Venezuelans who bought it for stability were thrilled when it hit $60k, horrified when it dropped back to $30k, and likely started selling out and buying gold or USD!

The powers that be have tried fighting Bitcoin. They all, one by one, realized if you can't beat'em, join'em. This is what you are seeing playing out now.

Correct, people have different motives for owning Bitcoin. But the great thing from an investors perspective, is that regardless of motive, the interests are aligned in supporting the success and continued adoption of Bitcoin.

We usually see the "but is too volatile" FUD cited, every time there is a drop form a new ATH. Over time, Bitcoiner's learn that volatility is fine, provided there is a long term upward trend. We have seen 400% increase over the last 12 months alone, albeit with volatility that a newbee may not be prepared for. Hence the Bitcoin mantra "always buy the dip". Investor education in this regard is important. As for the person in Venezuela, they are already very familiar with rapid declined in currency. The USD and gold used to be their defence against that - now its Bitcoin.

I'll leave you with a nice quick clip mention Peter Thiel's recent stance on Bitcoin.

 
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Here is a good interview that explains the reason why some are view Bitcoin as important.


I agree - anyone who is grappling with the economic concepts of money and store of value, there are many great Michel Saylor clips that are great to watch.
 
The crux of this divide is that you are solidly in a different generation
That is probably one of the primary sticking points of this discussion. Just insert smart phones, the internet, ac power, electronic calculator. Before you read this as an, "okay boomer" response I'm 51 but being in the technical field has kept me more up to date on tech and required me to adapt due to career requirements as well as my general enjoyment of learning new things.

Appreciate the contributions as reading through these interactions has been interesting. It reminds me for years how my FIL gave me grief about a smart phone and would just flip open his phone and show me how easy it was to make a call. He is now on his second generation of Samsung Galaxy and we text often as well as him texting his grandkids. The only thing crypto needs is time and I cannot disagree it is used in illegal activities but the parties making the accusation are focusing their research to confirm their bias. If it had such a high illegal usage you are telling me companies like Fidelity are involved in crypto knowing the risk the are taking on by being involved in the crypto space?
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/fidelity-applies-to-launch-a-bitcoin-etf-2021-03-24
https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/active-investor/beyond-bitcoin

Examples of larger investors and pensions funds starting to buy crypto
https://www.coingecko.com/en/public-companies-bitcoin
https://banyanhill.com/billionaires-are-buying-bitcoin-you-should-too/
https://news.bitcoin.com/us-public-...ters-adds-bitcoin-ether-25-million-portfolio/

Disclaimer: Own crypto as well as traditional investments approved by a majority of the FIRE community
 
Yeah, me I guess. Electrical engineer. Math? Dunno anything about it.

Yeah, maybe he (37andhappy) means guys like me that have two engineering degrees and an MBA in finance? Math....yeah I never went past differential equations.
 
My 10 cents and experience:
I listened to the economists back in 2013-2015 that said btc would be worth nothing in 5 years. Many of them still think that. Fortunately for my wealth, a few very good friends of mine convinced me to put a small amount in and I started with just 0.1% in 2018 and took that to 2% in 2019. By mostly appreciation but some additional investments, btc and other coins and companies exposed to coins (COIN, HUT, etc) make up 20% of my assets.

Why did I add or at least have not monetized? The simple reasons for me were reading up on the technology and seeing the adoption by people much smarter and wealthier than I will ever be. People (like me up until 2018) think it may go to zero like so many of the dot com companies we saw. But remember, even AMZN was portrayed as worthless (Amazon. Bomb was a cover story). What is the market cap of tech stocks to the global equity market cap? Kevin O’Leary of shark tank fame puts it best. Crypto will be the 12th sector of the S&P 500.

For doubters out there, it is wise to think “how am I being fooled?” And while many of us here don’t need this possible continued wealth boost if it keeps running up,, since we have hopefully invested wisely and have our spending in check so that we can or have FIREd, getting an enormous wealth boost for a small allocation can open more opportunities/freedoms.

Given the crypto market cap now at over $2T, it makes sense to diversify into this space since it is both still young but also proven. Be it BTC or other Coins Sometimes doing your research involves owning the asset. I own ETH and stake it. It is fun learning.

I recommend people read the books the truth machine and the age of cryptocurrency to see why blockchain technology is so important and useful, but also to get a historical perspective on BTC and why it likely will be what it was meant to be. If you are like me, you’ll take them out from the library. :)

The Truth Machine: The Blockchain and the Future of Everything https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250304172/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_WFKKD63MNXYHCD8Z75BF

The Age of Cryptocurrency: How Bitcoin and the Blockchain Are Challenging the Global Economic Order https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250081556/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_Q4CRJDWXNP30RDSMWVAF
 
The crux of this divide is that you are solidly in a different generation... At a certain age people become hardened to anything that might upset their 100% correct model of the universe.

Target 2019, I think this comment hits the nail on the head in some ways. It also seems to strike a nerve and provoke a defensive response. Its interesting when you look as some of the responses from the "older generation" who proudly explain that they were computer engineers or mathematicians in their time... :)

We could use as another example, the concept of autonomous driven cars. To the "new generation" it will be the norm to pay for a car on a subscription basis and for the car to be self-driving. Yet among the "older generation", there will always be a stubborn bunch who insist "I will always drive my own car", and "I will own my own car" - the irony being that not only will the autonomous driven car be safer, but also that the subscription model will be cheaper. And among this group, many will actually know they are wrong or being irrational, but they still won't change their view.

And so, as we can see, there is a certain type of group which cites a whole bunch of "risks" (some with valid basis but many illogical) when it comes to the rejection of any allocation to Bitcoin, with the irony being that they are entirely comfortable with property, equities, fiat currencies and bonds/gold, (despite all these classes have numerous risks attached to reach of them). This is of course where the importance of diversification come in to play.

in my view, its often not a lack of knowledge or intelligence, but really more a threat to a core belief system in terms of how a generation have been brought up (indoctrinated?) with regard to the concept of money (in that the Government should control this interaction among as as individuals). In some people there is almost a type of anger or hostility that gets aroused as such core beliefs are threatened. :)

Here is the best explanation of this phenomenon I have seen (which we can actually see being played out in this forum discussion itself) in relation mental journey that takes place with regard to the psychology related Bitcoin:
 
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Its interesting when you look as some of the responses from the "older generation" who proudly explain that they were computer engineers or mathematicians in their time... :)
On the otherhand, maybe the "older generation" is better informed, better educated, more experienced, and wiser.

Your bringing up autonomous vehicles is interesting. I think they are the future in some places. I have significant investments in that general area. I don't own any Tesla directly but it is in several funds I own. Where I live they will never work. The roads are too odd and inconsistently marked. And Hawaii will never be able to afford the infrastructure improvements needed to fix the issues.

Autonomous vehicle developers are also operating in an artificial legal environment right now. To encourage innovation they have largely been shielded from liability. I do not consider this a bad thing. The same was done in the past for other dangerous technologies like aircraft.

But there is a pendulum. The first time an automous vehicle plows into a group of school children waiting for their bus and the public finds out that company executives made decisions to save money and cannot be held criminally responsible for murder as a driver would, laws will change. And they will become too draconian.

San Francisco and Silicon Valley will have autnomous vehicles very soon, I think they already do. But once the laws designed to encourage innovation start moving back to protecting public safety, things will slow down.

And I'll tell you, this old guy likes driving his sports car way too much to hand off that task to a robot! I work with several people who own Tesla's, love driving them, but never use the self-driving features. precisiely because he car is fun to drive.
 
37, maybe you should answer my questions about whether Russian hackers and ransomeware operators get to change bitcoin code and how bitcoin protects itself against infiltration by criminals. Or at least explain why you won't answer.
 
Thanks for the interesting discussion but now that it has moved into personal attacks and inter generational aspersions we have decided to close the thread.

 
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