So we FINALLY have a SEC approved BTC ETF!

[SecondCor521]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 37andhappy How dare someone try and dominate a topic! If the thread is of no interest to you, you are free of of course to move on. Do so at your peril though - you may be seriously missing out on understanding a life transforming monetary technology. Ultimately, its for sharing knowledge and have academic discussions that we are all here.

Did you notice that Aerides, the person you are replying to, is a moderator?

[Aerides]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecondCor521 Did you notice that Aerides, the person you are replying to, is a moderator?

Unless I post in a mod capacity (ie, "Mod Post") you can assume that any post from a mod - any of us - is in our capacity as a rank-and-file member.

Mod's, we are people too.

[Lienlord]

I feel like I've stumbled into a thread about the benefits of going vegan, except the word was changed to bitcoin! LOL

"How do you know if someone is vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you!"

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerides ... Mod's, we are people too.

and in the "I learn something new every day" category....

[captain3d]

This thread and its reactions are very interesting to me. It shows that people are strongly interested in Bitcoin in both positive and negative ways.

That is different from not being interested in something.

Obviously people who like the idea of Bitcoin want to share the 'good news' in the same way I would encourage my non investing friends to start their 401k and get the free match. It is not uncommon for me to get similar replies about the 'scam' qualities of stocks or how it is all going to crash or that it is just gambling etc. When I get these responses I can not help but try harder to convince them and it often makes things worse.

I like Bitcoin and crypto as I think it will be a significant part of our future financial lives. I am excited about being early on a new change. I am worried about Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC) as it will give governing bodies a way to track every transaction. Even if you have nothing illegal to hide you may not enjoy being politically manipulated or advertising targeted etc. It is already bad enough.

I am happy to see this futures ETF arrive and hope it opens the door to a spot ETF soon.

[37andhappy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerides Unless I post in a mod capacity (ie, "Mod Post") you can assume that any post from a mod - any of us - is in our capacity as a rank-and-file member. Mod's, we are people too.

Phew!

[37andhappy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lienlord I feel like I've stumbled into a thread about the benefits of going vegan, except the word was changed to bitcoin! LOL "How do you know if someone is vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you!"

Interesting observation and yes it seems quite analogous! I've read such vegan vs non-vegan threads, and wondered if anyone ever succeeded in "converting" the other to their view.

In both cases, I think past of what is at play is that the other side is perceived as threatening our core beliefs or making us feel somehow inferior, and hence in the vegan debates we see the typical "non-sense arguments / justifications", time and time again such as:

"But animals don't feel pain the same we do".
-"Its part of the animal food-chain"
-"God created animals for us to eat"
-"Humans need animal flesh protein to be healthy"
"But I bet you kill mosquitos so you are a hypocrite"

and my favorite "But plants feel pain too!"

After reading some such threads, my conclusion was that the best answer might be "Yes, it is morally wrong to harm others for my selfish eating desires, but I do it anyway", which is not an overly nice conclusion to come to. But at least for me, I would say the vegans have come close to "converting me", and at the very least open my thinking in a different way towards animal cruelty.

On the Bitcoin list of "non-sensical objection arguments" the usual seem in the past to have to included equally ridiculous of comments such as :

-A FedCoin will lead to reduced demand for BTC.
-Its price is too volatile.
-It is not typically used to purchase things.
-BTC is not "real" as to opposed to gold which is.
-Its not easy for me to buy it.
-It only has a short period of history (unlike gold).
-How can we be sure there really is a fixed limit on supply and that it can't be infinitely produced.
-It will be taxed.
-People can hack an exchange so it is not safe.
-BTC is only used by bad people and criminals.
-Bitcoin not anonymous.
-The Government will eventually shut it down.
-Transaction speed is too slow for mass adoption.
-Must have been created by the CIA.

and my favorite "but BTC disappears when the electricity is turned off".

Someone should create a website with all such typical objections and answers on topics with strong opposing views, which would then enable an entire thread and hours of time to be saved by simply posting "The answers to all your questions on [topic x] are here [insert link]. What a time saver that would be!

I think I may have just inspired myself with a new business idea...

[pb4uski]

Still waiting for an answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Ok dude, if you drop dead right now what happens with your crypto stash? Be honest and don't tell us what could happen if you had things structured in a certain way... tell us the way they really are.

[37andhappy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Still waiting for an answer.

Ha ha ... wouldn't you like to know...

Here's a few solutions:

https://www.fxempire.com/education/a...-assets-533012

https://www.altcoinbuzz.io/bitcoin-a...-how-it-works/

https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2020/0...ance-services/

https://trustwallet.com/blog/crypto-...w-to-make-sure

[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 37andhappy If the thread is of no interest to you, you are free of of course to move on. Do so at your peril though - you may be seriously missing out on understanding a life transforming monetary technology. Ultimately, its for sharing knowledge and have academic discussions that we are all here.

This sounds like evangelical zeal, not analytical discussion of a financial product. No matter, as I have no desire to debate this with you, life is too short to argue with a zealot. My only purpose is to give readers an alternate view. Just a few more comments.

“The US$ is eroding or losing its value” is, to be polite, deeply misleading. In the 50 years since the US abandoned the gold standard the US population has experienced the greatest improvement in prosperity and standard of living in the history of humanity. The expansion of the US$ monetary base has been one of the critical factors that enabled this. All the voices that clamor and shout about printing too many dollars and such are selling fear and distracting people from the reality that the standard of living for us has never been better and our prospects are rosy.

The financial system has not embraced crypto and is not close to doing so. It recognizes crypto as a speculative asset to be traded, nothing more. The monetary system does not treat crypto as a method of payment or transfer. Bitcoin and all other crypto currencies sit entirely outside the banking regulatory system.

“The financial system may collapse and bitcoin will prevail” is codswallop. It is, at best, a fantasy. First, the financial system supporting developed countries is unlikely to collapse. It enjoys a structure carefully built and evolved over many decades, with a body of law and regulatory system to ensure it works, with numerous safeguards and lots of very smart people working it, for our benefit. If our financial backbone did “collapse”, we probably wouldn’t have an internet to surf or electricity to charge our phones. Gold might be worth something, but this is when the proverbial “guns, ammo and food” are what matters. Bitcoin for that situation just doesn’t make it past the first sniff test.

The most compelling purpose for digital currency is payments. This is because the US banking system still takes 3 days to transfer payments between accounts, when it could be done in a few seconds. They - the US banks - have sat on this because they monopolize this trade and have no interest in sharing it. Same for international transfers. Cryptos like bitcoin offer alternate payment options. As soon as the formal banking system steps up and implements immediate transfers and payments, one of the most compelling reasons for a crypto goes away.

My biggest concern about buying crypto is it will lose most or all its value once it becomes subject to the regulatory system, and as long as it remains outside the system, it’s far too dangerous and uncertain. So, the only reason to own it is the potential for future price growth. Fat tail risk from two sources is just too much. The incessant message that I don’t understand and am missing a once in a lifetime opportunity just reinforce to this simple mind that cryptocurrency is not something that will add any benefit to my portfolio, but would add a lot more risk.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 37andhappy Ha ha ... wouldn't you like to know... Here's a few solutions: https://www.fxempire.com/education/a...-assets-533012 https://www.altcoinbuzz.io/bitcoin-a...-how-it-works/ https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2020/0...ance-services/ https://trustwallet.com/blog/crypto-...w-to-make-sure

What solution do you have in place as of right now? The world is replete with good solutions that never get put into place... that is human nature.

I guessing that there is substantial risk that many crypto owners haven't provided for the possibility that they die or are disabled and their heirs are unable to access their assets. Can it be mitigated... yes, I suspect so... has it been mitigated.... I highly doubt it.

OTOH, if I die and my wife doesn't have my brokerage account credentials and I haven't set something up then she'll still eventually get access to that money.... brokerage is a more mature platform. OTOH, if I die and she doesn't have my crypto credentials and I haven't thought ahead then that money is useless.... forever.

[37andhappy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski What solution do you have in place as of right now? The world is replete with good solutions that never get put into place... that is human nature. I guessing that there is substantial risk that many crypto owners haven't provided for the possibility that they die or are disabled and their heirs are unable to access their assets. Can it be mitigated... yes, I suspect so... has it been mitigated.... I highly doubt it. OTOH, if I die and my wife doesn't have my brokerage account credentials and I haven't set something up then she'll still eventually get access to that money.... brokerage is a more mature platform. OTOH, if I die and she doesn't have my crypto credentials and I haven't thought ahead then that money is useless.... forever.

Reminds a bit of the "please tell me where you buried your gold I won't tell anyone, I promise" type question people used to ask back in the day before Bitcoin.

Seriously though, if you are comfortable with an intermediary, such as the broker you used, then simply buy via an ETF. Or work with a retail or private bank which offers a custody solution. All the US regulated crypto exchanges also comply with wills and estate law. So plenty of traditional systems.

However, all of these contain intermediary risk - ie the broker my deceive you, the bank may go bankrupt, the exchange may be hacked (and not sufficiently covered by insurance etc), so for many the ethos of BTC is "not your keys, not your coin". Much the same applies to gold - do you trust physical only "buried in the backyard", put it into a bank storage box, buy a gold ETF. If you do want to self custody, there are an infinite number of ways to address your concerns - be creative. Over time, for most people, I believe we will move more towards institutional custody providers, with some people hodling a little direct in cold storage for worst case type scenarios or tax and privacy related purposes.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski What solution do you have in place as of right now? The world is replete with good solutions that never get put into place... that is human nature. I guessing that there is substantial risk that many crypto owners haven't provided for the possibility that they die or are disabled and their heirs are unable to access their assets. Can it be mitigated... yes, I suspect so... has it been mitigated.... I highly doubt it. OTOH, if I die and my wife doesn't have my brokerage account credentials and I haven't set something up then she'll still eventually get access to that money.... brokerage is a more mature platform. OTOH, if I die and she doesn't have my crypto credentials and I haven't thought ahead then that money is useless.... forever.

+1

In the legacy financial services industry death claims are the most complex they deal with and I've seen some stories firsthand. They've had decades to work through their legal issues. Crypto not so much today, probably not for a while so I don't think I'll put anything significant in it.

This thread would be a lot more informative and actionable if it didn't read like an infomercial for a bad annuity.

[RobbieB]

Is there a free dinner coming soon?

[pb4uski]

It's not like I'm asking for your credentials or the keys to your kingdom... I'm just asking what happens to your crypto if you die right now and you've refused to answer numerous times. That's fine, I suspect that you know that you don't have your ducks in a row if something like that were to happen and are embarassed about it.

The point was and is that the risk of loss with crypto is much, much higher than with traditional investments. Can the risk be mitigated... sure, just a simple not of instructions in a safe deposit box that your heirs will have access to would suffice... but I'm betting that a lot of crypto buyers don't have that dire possibility covered off.

[captain3d]

I wonder what comes first
Bitcoin at $100k or a spot Bitcoin ETF.

[SecondAttempt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 37andhappy Again, no-one can access your Bitcoin if they don't have your private keys. This is a 100% rock solid and immutable concept.

Uh huh, a few years ago they said the same thing about DES (Data Encryption Standard). Then a teenager in Norway hacked it.

There is no doubt that blockchain technology is pretty good. But if the three letter agencies have not already hacked it they will soon. When they do, ransomeware attacks will end and that will be a good thing.

[SecondAttempt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenant13 Just to bring the discussion back to the original topic: what has been approved is not an ETF tracing BTC price but its futures. Which is a terrible thing and best not touched with a 10 foot pole. Here’s the detailed explanation: https://www.coindesk.com/podcasts/th...begin-trading/

And it is notable that the SEC approved the bitcoin futures fund because it deems bitcoin to be too risky to invest in!

[SecondAttempt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB The financial system has not embraced crypto and is not close to doing so. It recognizes crypto as a speculative asset to be traded, nothing more. The monetary system does not treat crypto as a method of payment or transfer. Bitcoin and all other crypto currencies sit entirely outside the banking regulatory system.

It will be very interesting to see if the new fund has many institutional shareholders in a couple of quarters. There undoubtedly will be a few but I will probably be able to count them on my fingers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB The most compelling purpose for digital currency is payments. This is because the US banking system still takes 3 days to transfer payments between accounts, when it could be done in a few seconds. They - the US banks - have sat on this because they monopolize this trade and have no interest in sharing it. Same for international transfers. Cryptos like bitcoin offer alternate payment options. As soon as the formal banking system steps up and implements immediate transfers and payments, one of the most compelling reasons for a crypto goes away.

True. But banks make money from the float in payments delay so they have no real interest in speeding it up.

[37andhappy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecondAttempt And it is notable that the SEC approved the bitcoin futures fund because it deems bitcoin to be too risky to invest in!

Lol - every time in history that BTC has made a step forwards in adoption, there are the "but BTC has not yet done [insert you sentence]" which come from no-coiners, as if somehow some future accomplishment that BTC has not yet achieved is somehow a fault of Bitcoin. I have seen this played out literally hundreds of times over the last decade. A fascinating insight into human nature when deep rooted and entrenched norms of thinking are systemically challenged.

As for being "notable", it is also notable that BTC can be invested in, regardless of whether it is via an ETF, or directly. BTC per se doesn't need any "SEC approval" to exist. And also notable also that in its first day, the ETF attracted over $500,000,000 inflows (making it one of the largest initiali capitalized ETFs of all time), reflecting the huge demand and desire fot BTC exposure regardless of the ETF's less than ideal structure.

A physical ETF is already being considered (see my earlier post on the GreyScale announcement). If that ever gets approved ... wow!

What we as investors need to bear in mind, is that every time another step is taken towards legitimization and integration of Sats into our financial systems, the price goes up. So, you can of course wait until the SEC approves also a physical ETF, (or wait until whatever personal metric you care about which makes you feel comfortable), but bear in mind such an approach does not come without opportunity cost - you will be paying more at that point for the perceived reduction of risk at that point in time. Smart money always looks for a positive arbitrage between future developments compared to present price. (Not the easiest of things to do with Bitcoin, for sure).