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Old 10-21-2021, 10:27 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by 37andhappy View Post
Of course a no-coiner can have valid views. You have not raised any that are compelling, but you have raised many that are typically raised by smarter but conservative (typically older) people...
Maybe my arguments are not compelling but then again, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I asked the question of why anyone would want to own bitcoin. And so far I have not heard any good reasons for ME to own any. Others can make up their own minds.

If I interpret your username and join date correctly we are not that much different in age. And to infer I am conservative, whether you mean politically or financially, is a gross misjudgement.

I'll do you a favor. Since these bitcoins are in limited supply, I won't buy any so that there are more for you to buy! You can thank me when you are rich. I'm already rich enough. Let me know when you get there. I will send you an invitation to our private club as a gesture of goodwill. But we don't accept bitcoin.
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Old 10-21-2021, 10:30 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by jim584672 View Post
Well, this may be a problem. The fund will be unable to track BTC properly...

First Bitcoin ETF Is Already in Danger of Breaching a Limit on Futures Contracts

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...mit-on-futures
It a nice problem to have that the vehicle holding it cannot keep up with demand. Much like a restaurant having the "problem" of customers lining up for hours trying to get a seat. But either way, there are other ways to satisfy the BTC demand, including buying it directly, or eventually via a physically backed ETF.
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Old 10-21-2021, 10:31 PM   #143
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Huh? By this logic that fleet of Tesla electric cars, which everyone knows use vast amounts of electricity, are furthering the world’s reliance on fossil fuels.
They are. Better to walk or bike everywhere. And rather than taking transoceanic flights, learn to swim! C'mon, do your part!
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Old 10-21-2021, 10:37 PM   #144
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Maybe my arguments are not compelling but then again, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I asked the question of why anyone would want to own bitcoin. And so far I have not heard any good reasons for ME to own any. Others can make up their own minds.

If I interpret your username and join date correctly we are not that much different in age. And to infer I am conservative, whether you mean politically or financially, is a gross misjudgement.

I'll do you a favor. Since these bitcoins are in limited supply, I won't buy any so that there are more for you to buy! You can thank me when you are rich. I'm already rich enough. Let me know when you get there. I will send you an invitation to our private club as a gesture of goodwill. But we don't accept bitcoin.
By personalising this discussion, (as opposed to keeping it objective and based on the statements as opposed to assumed characteristics of the poster), you are engaging in what we refer to a an “ad hominem response". Whilst a commonly occurring phenomenon, many would consider such an approach as ultimately being an unconstructive approach which focuses on some characteristic of the person who made a statement, rather than the arguments that are making per se. Just saying, but of course it's OK with me.

But yes, we may well be of similar ages, and hopefully both young at heart! As for why you would want to have some exposure to Bitcoin, I would say to consider it as a powerful hedge or "insurance" which gives you wealth protection options and defences in a multitude of possible future scenarios. (And this of course is why we are all on this forum). Remember this post (and hopefully thank me), when such future scenarios might occur. At the very least I urge you to give some serious longer-term thought about what is going on in America and the world, both financially, socially, technologically, and geo-politically. I do think you will eventually "get there" with time, and perhaps even become an advocate for the utility Bitcoin provides.
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Old 10-21-2021, 10:39 PM   #145
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That sounds really, really bad. Bitcoin uses 43% as much electricity as the entire banking industry?
I have not addressed the electricity argument largely because it is limited. Bitcoin is approaching its limit is mineable coins so I think the electricity demands from bitcoin will begin to taper soon. Sure, every watt-hour counts but it won;t be a big contributor in 20 years. It's true that as the supply diminishes even greater computing power will be needed but miners will just switch to other crypto currencies.

Note that China's ban on crypto owning and mining happened when they faced an electricity crisis. Maybe they are related.
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Old 10-21-2021, 10:45 PM   #146
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By personalising this discussion...
I don't want to make it personal. I am open to rational and well-supported arguements in favor of bitcoin, futures, option, stocks, bonds, and tulip bulbs. But I don't accept them on faith. I do my own thinking and research as others should.

By the way, you have some consistent spelling and writing styles that are revealing. Not that they undermine what you are saying, they just cause me to doubt some of the things you have said.
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Old 10-21-2021, 11:18 PM   #147
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mpeirce, your logic breaks down because in the case of EVs, *if* they are replacing *some* of the fossil fuel used by ICE/hybrids, then EVs are reducing the world’s reliance on fossil fuels.
Getting off topic...maybe

If you drive 1000 miles in a car it takes a certain amount of energy which is determined by the weight of you+car+fuel/batteries, rolling resistance, air resistance, and other frictions/losses of the vehicle. These are roughly the same for EV vs ICE vehicles.

So the equation boils down to multiplying efficiencies.

If you power it by an ICE there are losses associated with oil drilling, pumping, transport, refining, and distribution. Then the engine itself is about 40% efficient.

If you power it with electricity there are losses associated with electric generation, largely still by fossil fuels (at about 45% efficiency) so include the above plus transmission (90% efficient). Electric motors are around 80% efficient at highway speeds and much less efficient in town.

So to first order, ICEs transfer fossil fuel energy into transportation work at 40% efficiency. EVs do the same thing at (0.45)(0.9)(0.8)=32.4% efficiency.

So your Prius heats up the planet 23.5% more than your Camry on the same trip. Unless of course you live right next to a nuclear power plant. Then you are good.

Simplistic analysis, yes. But EVs are of no use until we start generating power more cleanly with solar, wind, hydroelectric, and so forth.

Not at all an opponent of EVs. I just think we need to think deeper andmore critically and that is the whole point of my posts on this thread.
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Old 10-22-2021, 12:10 AM   #148
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... and back on topic, for those who were asking about whether there are better alternatives to acquire BTC than via the recent ETF (ticker: BITO), see this recent news making headlines today (I presume its legit).

https://money.usnews.com/investing/n...oinstar-kiosks

Has anyone seen these kiosks? Any feedback on using them? They are likely to have quite high margins I would suspect, but still its again a further step towards the journey of broader mainstream adoption. Possibly also a great way to transfer micropayments to people overseas without the costs associated with the traditional banking network. Watch out Western Union - Bitcoin is coming for you!
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:17 AM   #149
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How do I invest? Because I ca write the doubter paragraphs all day long.
You can actually buy and use Bitcoin on Paypal. https://www.paypal.com/us/digital-wa...e-money/crypto
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Old 10-22-2021, 05:57 AM   #150
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You can actually buy and use Bitcoin on Paypal. https://www.paypal.com/us/digital-wa...e-money/crypto
Yep. Also numerous banks now issue Bitcoin-backed Visa cards. (Basically Bitcoin on the back-end, but transacted on the front end in fiat, seamlessly converted). These types of services are great for global nomads / citizens of the world (whether for lifestyle, business or tax) who live already entirely in Bitcoin as their base currency, but who have the reality of day today transactions in the various countries they are in.
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Old 10-22-2021, 06:03 AM   #151
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Is Bitcoin a Trojen Horse?

Interesting discussion here for those are are interested a little more on the deeper social factors at play here, (and timely for those who may have a more short-sighted view that "its all about the money").

https://youtu.be/3xH1vBuDbBA
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Old 10-22-2021, 06:56 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by mpeirce View Post
Huh? By this logic that fleet of Tesla electric cars, which everyone knows use vast amounts of electricity, are furthering the world’s reliance on fossil fuels.
True, but at least Tesla cars are providing utility... moving people to and fro... crypto is not providing much utility other than serving as a platform for speculation... so you need to look at electric consumption in relation to utility.
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Old 10-22-2021, 06:58 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by 37andhappy View Post
Yep. Also numerous banks now issue Bitcoin-backed Visa cards. (Basically Bitcoin on the back-end, but transacted on the front end in fiat, seamlessly converted). These types of services are great for global nomads / citizens of the world (whether for lifestyle, business or tax) who live already entirely in Bitcoin as their base currency, but who have the reality of day today transactions in the various countries they are in.
Why would anyone in their right mind select Bitcoin as their base currency when the US$ and EU euro are so easily available?
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So we FINALLY have a SEC approved BTC ETF!
Old 10-22-2021, 07:51 AM   #154
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So we FINALLY have a SEC approved BTC ETF!

37andhappy, your endurance is admirable. I find it most convincing when people put their money where their mouth is. Given your strong opinions about the flaws in the current financial system and how Bitcoin is the inevitable solution to them, why not go all in and allocate 100% of your portfolio to Bitcoin? Or is your belief in the inevitable failure of the current order and the inevitable dominance of Bitcoin only 1%, 5%, or 10% certain?
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Old 10-22-2021, 08:04 AM   #155
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....

Second, you actually provide a great example of the misunderstanding of people who take a negative view of Bitcoin (without really understanding the incorrectness of their statements or biasses). For example, the "Oh but Bitcoin uses the amount of electricity of country X" FUD. Such statements are usually made without looking at what proportion of that energy comes from renewable sources of energy that would not ever be utilized for anything else. (Think hydro power in remote locations, solar and wind power in desserts uninhabited by any significant populations, geo thermal in remote locations, etc). ...
And you sir/madam, actually provide a great example of the misunderstanding of people of how the grid and renewables work.

So once again, your evangelicalism uses misguided, distorted 'logic/examples' to try to make your point. As I said, if you are going to make a case for Bitcoin, you are going to need to do better than this.

In failing to do better, you are actually making the case against Bitcoin. If I approach this thread with a neutral mindset, I'm not moved towards Bitcoin at all, by anything you've said.

-ERD50
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Old 10-22-2021, 09:01 AM   #156
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Definitely a tough crowd in here :-)
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So we FINALLY have a SEC approved BTC ETF!
Old 10-22-2021, 11:54 AM   #157
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So we FINALLY have a SEC approved BTC ETF!

^^^^ You know, most of us got to where we are by diligently using time-tested principles and avoiding fads and shiny objects (dot coms, biotech stocks, nano tech stocks, penny stocks, nothing-down real estate, chinchilla farming and other delights). Some of us require a higher bar to be convinced.
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Old 10-22-2021, 12:01 PM   #158
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I tried to find some crypto and crime information.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/haileyl...h=6bf3b5833432

"The majority of cryptocurrency is not used for criminal activity. According to an excerpt from Chainalysis’ 2021 report, in 2019, criminal activity represented 2.1% of all cryptocurrency transaction volume (roughly $21.4 billion worth of transfers). In 2020, the criminal share of all cryptocurrency activity fell to just 0.34% ($10.0 billion in transaction volume).

According to the UN, it is estimated that between 2% and 5% of global GDP ($1.6 to $4 trillion) annually is connected with money laundering and illicit activity. This means that criminal activity using cryptocurrency transactions is much smaller than fiat currency and its use is going down year by year."
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Definitely a tough crowd in here :-)
Thanks for looking around for the criminal use statistics. Yes, this is a tough crowd. BTC is a controversial topic in the same way Dividends,etc. raises the ire of some frequent posters.

The crux of this divide is that you are solidly in a different generation, and will go forward with coin on your ledger. Whether a pariticular argument is weak or strong, coin will go on irregardless. At a certain age people become hardened to anything that might upset their 100% correct model of the universe. One day this will be you!

I know that coin will continue to take root for many reasons. I offer this article as something that better describes what is going on generationally in Philadelphia, and of course in other cities. I choose to be a simple observer of changes like this, and don't think of it as a battle cry.

https://philadelphiaweekly.com/the-b...oom-in-philly/

I have mined a small amount of HNT coin in the past six months. I read a book. It's an interesting topic.
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Old 10-22-2021, 12:23 PM   #159
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Here is a good interview that explains the reason why some are view Bitcoin as important.

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Old 10-22-2021, 02:45 PM   #160
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The crux of this divide is that you are solidly in a different generation, and will go forward with coin on your ledger. Whether a pariticular argument is weak or strong, coin will go on irregardless. At a certain age people become hardened to anything that might upset their 100% correct model of the universe. One day this will be you!
Dont get me started on why you should not pay off your mortgage :-) I am actually pretty old and early retired. I have a core amount of investments I need for life and am well diversified including all the normal indexing as well as gold and rentals.

Crypto struck me as a way to diversify further and lower my risk long term. I started small and it has grown into a big chunk equalling other sections in the pie chart.. I am prepared to let it keep growing and the more I find out the more convinced I am it will be important in the future.

It is also a pretty entertaining ride with 80% swings. Great for tax loss harvesting as there is no wash sale 31 day limit as crypto is property.
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