The Cryptocurrency Thread 2

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How can this happen if Crypto is secured by Block Chain tech that can't be broken/faked/side-stepped by bad guys?

The Blockchain is more like impossible to counterfeit currency. You can not duplicate it or create a fake version. (Forking might be another discussion)

But is not impossible to break into the 'bank', cut through the 'vault' door and escape down the secret tunnel with the cash.

In these cases of crypto theft someone left the 'bank' unlocked to some degree. Sometimes this is straightforward password security but can also be a software design oversight/error that leaves a way for hackers to get into the code and send off the tokens to another address.

Even though it is hackers creating the blockchain transaction, the transaction itself "can't be broken/faked/side-stepped" In the same way that someone robbing the bank does get real money.
 
The Blockchain is more like impossible to counterfeit currency. You can not duplicate it or create a fake version. (Forking might be another discussion)

But is not impossible to break into the 'bank', cut through the 'vault' door and escape down the secret tunnel with the cash.

In these cases of crypto theft someone left the 'bank' unlocked to some degree. Sometimes this is straightforward password security but can also be a software design oversight/error that leaves a way for hackers to get into the code and send off the tokens to another address.

Even though it is hackers creating the blockchain transaction, the transaction itself "can't be broken/faked/side-stepped" In the same way that someone robbing the bank does get real money.

The difference being that if the bank is robbed, you are generally still getting your money back.
 
The difference being that if the bank is robbed, you are generally still getting your money back.



It the depends on the storage method. Coinbase had a breech this fall, when someone was able to scam some Coinbase clients out of their text-based two factor authentication codes and stole some coins that were sitting in trading exchange accounts. Coinbase pledged to make the clients whole and encouraged clients to use 2fa authentication apps instead of texts. They also have FDIC insurance for any cash sitting on the trading exchange.

Clients who instead move their coins from the trading platform into the Coinbase Vault are, we hope, far more secure, because the vault is not connected to the internet. It’s the difference between putting a swarm of hornets in a locked cave under a glacier, rather than letting the hive stay under the roof of your barn and hoping something bad doesn’t happen. Digital asset owners have to take responsibility for their credentials, actually very much like Vanguard clients do, in my experience.
 
It the depends on the storage method. Coinbase had a breech this fall, when someone was able to scam some Coinbase clients out of their text-based two factor authentication codes and stole some coins that were sitting in trading exchange accounts. Coinbase pledged to make the clients whole and encouraged clients to use 2fa authentication apps instead of texts. They also have FDIC insurance for any cash sitting on the trading exchange.

Clients who instead move their coins from the trading platform into the Coinbase Vault are, we hope, far more secure, because the vault is not connected to the internet. It’s the difference between putting a swarm of hornets in a locked cave under a glacier, rather than letting the hive stay under the roof of your barn and hoping something bad doesn’t happen. Digital asset owners have to take responsibility for their credentials, actually very much like Vanguard clients do, in my experience.


Wait, so the thieves had access to their SMS numbers and were able to get into their accounts?

Because they must have had their emails and passwords as well.
 
Coinbase FDIC insurance needs to be understood. They do not hold the cash in customer accounts (Coinbase calls them fiat balances). Instead, Coinbase aggregates these balances and deposits them in real banks. If one of those banks goes under, the deposits are FDIC insured on a pass through basis. Coinbase, however, is most definitely not FDIC insured.

Their statement on insurance does not inspire me to entrust my assets with them. https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/other-topics/legal-policies/how-is-coinbase-insured
Coinbase carries crime insurance that protects a portion of digital assets held across our storage systems against losses from theft, including cybersecurity breaches. However, our policy does not cover any losses resulting from unauthorized access to your personal Coinbase or Coinbase Pro account(s) due to a breach or loss of your credentials. It is your responsibility to use a strong password and maintain control of all login credentials you use to access Coinbase and Coinbase Pro.
The way I read that statement, if all of Coinbase is hacked, their insurance will pay up to the limits of the insurance, but if my account is hacked, I’m SOOL.

Also, the way I read it, if I have cash in a Coinbase account that’s not bundles into an FDIC bank and it’s lost by Coinbase, I’m once again SOOL.
 
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Wait, so the thieves had access to their SMS numbers and were able to get into their accounts?

Because they must have had their emails and passwords as well.

I think it had something to do with an exploit in the code that related to changing the 2FA choice on the account.
 
I think it had something to do with an exploit in the code that related to changing the 2FA choice on the account.

So Coinbase was hacked, not some customer who had their login and password and their phone number compromised?

That's worse for Coinbase's reputation.
 
Markola,

I think your view of how Coinbase handles your bitcoin might be a bit off. Originally I thought along the lines you seem to be following. That is, that when I bought a bitcoin on Coinbase there was a key related to that that Coinbase held on my behalf.

I may be wrong, but I don't think it works exactly like that. Your bitcoin on Coinbase is more accurately thought of in the same way as your FIAT dollar in a bank account. Your bank account balance is a liability of the bank rather than dollars in a vault. In the case of the bank, you are an unsecured creditor and at the bottom of the pecking order in a bankruptcy (maybe protected by FDIC up to the per account limit).

With Coinbase, you have an IOU for the amount of bitcoin in your account. The actual trading is just numbers within the Coinbase database. For all I know, they may be running some sort of fractional reserve banking and loaning out bitcoin that is deposited to places like Celsius that pay yield on crypto.

When you want to withdraw, they have to come up with some bitcoin to send you in the same way that your bank has to come up with some physical dollars. One forum that I follow had complaints of withdrawals of Solana from Coinbase taking much to long and it was posited that Coinbase may have had to scrounge up the Solana for the withdrawal.

In the case of the Coinbase "vault", I don't think that they actually move "your" bitcoin to cold storage. Coinbase probably keeps a large percentage of its bitcoin in cold storage as part of their corporate risk management strategy, but "your" bitcoin in the vault is just an IOU the same as in your regular account.

I may be wrong, but I think that the vault feature is simply a time delay process on withdrawals from your account rather than a process for securing your particular bitcoin.
 
So Coinbase was hacked, not some customer who had their login and password and their phone number compromised?

That's worse for Coinbase's reputation.

Here is a cut-past from the coindesk article. I am not pasting a link because my anti-virus popped up while I was doing the Google search for this article.

It seems that it was a combination of using social engineering or phishing to get the email or credentials and then exploiting the SMS 2FA flaw.

Reading between the lines here I think it may have been fake web sites that people logged into. I saw a forum warning recently about a site called "coinbase pro dot com" that was fake.

[article text follows]

A vulnerability that allowed hackers to bypass Coinbase’s multi-factor authentication SMS option has affected at least 6,000 of the exchange’s customers, according to a notification letter sent to affected customers that the company has filed with the California state attorney general offices.

Between March and May 20, the hacker or hackers used a flaw in Coinbase’s account recovery process to get the SMS two-factor authentication token to break into customers’ accounts and transfer funds out of them.
The bad actor or actors also had access to the email address, password and phone number associated with each Coinbase account. Coinbase believes that the hacker stole those credentials through a phishing scheme and noted in its letter to the California AG that it has not found evidence of the hacker getting this information from Coinbase itself.

“We took immediate action to mitigate the impact of the campaign by working with external partners to remove phishing sites as they were identified, as well as notifying the email providers impacted,” a Coinbase spokesperson said via email. “Unfortunately we believe, although cannot conclusively determine, that some Coinbase customers may have fallen victim to the phishing campaign and turned over their Coinbase credentials and the phone numbers verified in their accounts to attackers.”
Coinbase said it is compensating customers for the stolen funds, but it’s unclear whether those payments are being made in fiat or crypto.
The exchange recommended that users switch to a more secure version of multi-factor authentication such as a hardware security key or authentication app.

This appears to be one of the largest breaches to have affected Coinbase. Other notable breaches included a password glitch in August 2019 that stored 3,500 customer passwords in plain text on an internal server log, although outside parties didn’t take advantage of the vulnerability. In the same month, Coinbase revealed the details of a sophisticated attack that was blocked by Coinbase but that resembled what would normally happen in a nation state-sponsored attack.
 
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In the case of the Coinbase "vault", I don't think that they actually move "your" bitcoin to cold storage. Coinbase probably keeps a large percentage of its bitcoin in cold storage as part of their corporate risk management strategy, but "your" bitcoin in the vault is just an IOU the same as in your regular account.


If you can find something definitive, I’d be interested. What Gemini of Binex or other exchanges may do differently is not relevant to me, or do I wish to maintain my own cold storage wallet. Here’s a typical discussion of the Coinbase Vault.

https://financebuzz.com/is-coinbase-vault-safe
 
If you can find something definitive, I’d be interested. What Gemini of Binex or other exchanges may do differently is not relevant to me, or do I wish to maintain my own cold storage wallet. Here’s a typical discussion of the Coinbase Vault.

https://financebuzz.com/is-coinbase-vault-safe


I doubt that I can find specifics. But the way it seems to me is that the vault is similar to a gold bu!lion storage facility where they offer both general and segregated storage. With general, you send them a coin and you get a coin back, not necessarily the one you sent in. With segregated you get a container to hold your specific coin. My guess is that Coinbase free vault is like common storage. Just think how complicated it would be to generate private keys for each customer and to maintain and back up those keys.

The article said 98% of your vault was offline. If it had a personal private key, would it not be 100%.
 
Coinbase Vault works for me at present. I like the added encryption and ease of use, and my judgment and research indicates they are trying to be a reputable public company that stays in business long-term. When some coins were stolen from the trading accounts with a phishing scam (that could happen to any regular brokerage, too), Coinbase compensated the account holders. If anyone is a fan of the the NPR podcast “How I Built This,” there is an episode with founder Brian Armstrong you might enjoy.

Everyone who wants to own digital assets has to choose a solution that works for them. No solution is perfect, either. If you decide to take personal custody in a cold storage wallet, for example, the device could be stolen, broken, lost, burned up or the same could happen to the keys and seeds. If you take custody in one of the many hot wallet services, what happens if they go bankrupt? Same for the storage device gadget companies. Who is to say they will still be around and supporting their apps, websites and devices in 5-10 years? And there are lots of exchanges with people’s assets that surely will not survive the test of time. What if some exchange registered in some offshore haven just winks out one day with everyone’s coins, a la Mt. Gox? Or, a person could buy a derivative, such as GBTC or Micro Strategy stock, with all the fees and stock risks entailed. It is truly caveat emptor.

I wonder what Fidelity Canada’s solution is for its ETF.
 
A local newspaper has a "troubleshooter" column that readers can turn to if they can't get satisfaction from a business or government agency. In last week's column the reporter was asked to help someone whose Coinbase account apparently was getting unauthorized use. The reader was getting no help from Coinbase. The columnist tried to intercede but also got stonewalled by Coinbase. https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/ask/sos/sos-buyer-beware-of-these-companies-that-didnt-deliver-and-didnt-explain/article_c96eb44d-976c-5224-8e6b-8c24b0b6ffc5.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
 
A local newspaper has a "troubleshooter" column that readers can turn to if they can't get satisfaction from a business or government agency. In last week's column the reporter was asked to help someone whose Coinbase account apparently was getting unauthorized use. The reader was getting no help from Coinbase. The columnist tried to intercede but also got stonewalled by Coinbase. https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/ask/sos/sos-buyer-beware-of-these-companies-that-didnt-deliver-and-didnt-explain/article_c96eb44d-976c-5224-8e6b-8c24b0b6ffc5.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

When I click on the link, a pop up asks me to subscribe, and if I clear that popup, it sends me to the home page where I don't see the article.:confused:
 
Sorry. The article appears in the Wisconsin State Journal of Madison. I will quote an excerpt:

Cryptic crypto
Ole Christensen, 81, of Madison, emailed SOS on Nov. 23 because he’d been locked out of his Coinbase crypto currency trading account and wasn’t getting any answers from the San Francisco-based company about what appeared to be unauthorized activity on the account.

Christensen said he signed up with Coinbase in May and that after about two months of trading, had about $2,500 in his account.

Then came messages from Coinbase saying his password had been reset and the company was trying to recover his account, that Coinbase deposited $11.07 into his checking account, and that the company had received a request from his account to buy currency, although he hadn’t made such a request, he said.

He’d since spent more than three months trying to either get access to his account or have it deleted and his money refunded, but multiple electronic messages and two certified letters to the company hadn’t accomplished either, he said.

“Coinbase praises itself of giving a superior customer service,” Christensen wrote to company CEO Brian Armstrong on Oct. 27. “I have difficulties in accepting that statement because of the way you are handling my case.”

SOS similarly got nowhere. There was no response to an email sent to the company on Dec. 2 and tagging Coinbase on Twitter on Dec. 22 resulted in a few bits of advice from people not employed by the company.

Coinbase has an F rating from the 110-year-old Better Business Bureau, which says the company has a “pattern of complaints from consumers who state they are locked out of their accounts, even after providing required information or updates. Consumers also state they have difficulty reaching the company.
 
Could you buy it person to person and avoid a third party like Coinbase? Seems like that would avoid some risk.
 
You can buy bitcoin/crypto from anyone. Individual or broker. Who ever you trust more. Do you trust your self to look after your own wallet and passwords?

These are just some of the obstacles to overcome. For many people even buying stocks have a barrier for entry that is too complex for them to deal with.
 
You can buy bitcoin/crypto from anyone. Individual or broker. Who ever you trust more. Do you trust your self to look after your own wallet and passwords?

These are just some of the obstacles to overcome. For many people even buying stocks have a barrier for entry that is too complex for them to deal with.
But how would you mechanically do that. I transfer money to you and how would the coin change title?
 
I've heard some sentiment that crypto -- broadly speaking, not so much a specific coin -- has had an effect on gold. This theory is offered up in partial explanation for why gold's price has not behaved as might be expected in these times of inflation.

So, 1st, I'd be interested in any expansion on why that is -- or isn't -- the case.

2nd, for those NOT planning on investing in crypto, are there impacts in broader markets that should be considered going forward? Are there metrics that might carry over?
 
But how would you mechanically do that. I transfer money to you and how would the coin change title?

When you have a wallet, there is an application that runs on your computer that has a screen with "send" and "receive" buttons. When you press the "receive" button, it displays a long string of characters which is one of the public keys associated with the private key inside the wallet.

When you withdraw from Coinbase, you have to put this public key into the withdrawal screen. If you are transacting with a private individual, you send them the public key.

If you press the "send" button on the wallet application, it displays a screen where you enter (copy/paste) the public key of the wallet of the person that you are sending to.

The sending wallet application will construct a transaction and have it cryptographically "signed" using the private key of the sender. The transaction is then sent to one of the bitcoin network nodes that forwards it into the system. Eventually the transaction is recorded in a block chain block and confirmed by many other nodes. This effectively transfers that amount of bitcoin to the new owner.
 
When you have a wallet, there is an application that runs on your computer that has a screen with "send" and "receive" buttons. When you press the "receive" button, it displays a long string of characters which is one of the public keys associated with the private key inside the wallet.

When you withdraw from Coinbase, you have to put this public key into the withdrawal screen. If you are transacting with a private individual, you send them the public key.

If you press the "send" button on the wallet application, it displays a screen where you enter (copy/paste) the public key of the wallet of the person that you are sending to.

The sending wallet application will construct a transaction and have it cryptographically "signed" using the private key of the sender. The transaction is then sent to one of the bitcoin network nodes that forwards it into the system. Eventually the transaction is recorded in a block chain block and confirmed by many other nodes. This effectively transfers that amount of bitcoin to the new owner.
So signing a previous transaction and placing it on the chain with the new owner info transfers the title. You still have the double risk of buyer not delivering cash or seller not signing over the title. Trust is needed by all parties. Seems very risky for a broken transaction.
 
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