Thoughts on TESLA

[Lakewood90712]

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Originally Posted by 38Chevy454 I don't think having the production facility in San Francisco bay area, with HCOL and being in CA with a lot of extra company costs (read that as regulation, taxes, fees, etc) is going to help with lowering production costs on the cars. There is a reason that the rest of the automotive manufacturing has left CA, it is just not cost effective compared to other locations.

2 reasons the Tesla production line is in the coastal area of California.

1, The small reason: 128 million in state tax incentives. https://insideevs.com/tesla-gets-39-...ite-tax-break/

2. The bigger reason. The Tesla plant in Fremont is an hour plane ride from Elon's front yard. No way is this guy going to have his baby further away. SpaceX is about an hour by car (20 miles) from his homestead too.

SpaceX is walking distance from a regional airport . He can easily be at both plants every day.

[Fedup]

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Originally Posted by Lakewood90712 2 reasons the Tesla production line is in the coastal area of California. 1, The small reason: 128 million in state tax incentives. https://insideevs.com/tesla-gets-39-...ite-tax-break/ 2. The bigger reason. The Tesla plant in Fremont is an hour plane ride from Elon's front yard. No way is this guy going to have his baby further away. SpaceX is about an hour by car (20 miles) from his homestead too. SpaceX is walking distance from a regional airport . He can easily be at both plants every day.

I believe he got the plant in Fremont for cheap, not so much it’s an hour from his house, not the main reason.

[Totoro]

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Originally Posted by ERD50 How much did the charger/installation cost?

Anecdote isn't data of course, my brothers charger installation cost him 250 EUR for a Tesla Model S. Don't know the capacity, but he could fully charge it overnight.

Further quotes I heard here cost around 400 for a 3.7KW installation or 800 for 7.4KW and up. Basically, as long as you don't have to dig you're good.

I got a quote from an incumbent big name here, they asked for 3k upwards that included breaking up the street and upgrading the box.

[kcowan]

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Originally Posted by ERD50 Why label this as a hoax? The customer gets the range they pay for, what's the issue? Why should the customer care if it is done by a software setting that limits the discharge, or with fewer cells?

In the olden days of unit record equipment, when you ordered an upgrade, the tech would come and install the appropriate pulley. Of course, the equipment was rented.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totoro Anecdote isn't data of course, my brothers charger installation cost him 250 EUR for a Tesla Model S. Don't know the capacity, but he could fully charge it overnight. Further quotes I heard here cost around 400 for a 3.7KW installation or 800 for 7.4KW and up. Basically, as long as you don't have to dig you're good. I got a quote from an incumbent big name here, they asked for 3k upwards that included breaking up the street and upgrading the box.

A Level 2 charger is needed for a full charge overnight, and is going to need a 40 AMP circuit in the US (these are dedicated circuits). For almost everyone in the US, that means hiring an electrician to install that circuit, and in many cases, an upgrade to the box.

Costs for that will vary by specifics, like distance to the main box. But it isn't insignificant for many.

OK, found this:

https://www.realtor.com/advice/home-...hicle-charger/

Quote:

A Level 2 charger will cost a bit more: The station will cost roughly $500 to $700, and the parts and labor will likely cost $1,200 to $2,000. The installation process could cost more if your main point of charging will require major electrical upgrades. ... Another cost to consider is permitting: Certain states require homeowners to get a permit when installing charging stations. In some places, you can get a $50 over-the-counter permit, while others will require as much as $200 and plans drawn by an engineer.

I don't think you can get the street dug up (and repaired?) and a box put in for anywhere near $3K in the US.

-ERD50

[indiajust]

Imagine if Toyota purchased Tesla. If there was some lucky combination of Toyota engineering and factory DFM, Tesla technology, Tesla styling. A true low cost, high value, decent profit, high volume, scalable electric vehicle. Something like when Pinin Farina and VW combined efforts.
Or even more outrageous, what if Tesla open sourced its tech to all? Become a Tier One auto supplier like GKN? Sell the factory?

[samclem]

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Originally Posted by indiajust Imagine if Toyota purchased Tesla. If there was some lucky combination of Toyota engineering and factory DFM, Tesla technology, Tesla styling. A true low cost, high value, decent profit, high volume, scalable electric vehicle. Something like when Pinin Farina and VW combined efforts. Or even more outrageous, what if Tesla open sourced its tech to all? Become a Tier One auto supplier like GKN? Sell the factory?

I see your point, but I am quite sure Toyota would not want to own the management of Tesla nor would they want to purchase the results of the decisions made by that team (production facilities, product engineering, etc). I'm also pretty sure Tesla would not be seen by Toyota as a reliable supplier of parts/components. Toyota might be interested in the technology itself, but there's no good reason they should pay Tesla a premium for it. If/when Tesla collapses, Toyota (and Honda, maybe Chevy) will be there to pick up the pieces. By then, we'll know if there's any real mass demand for these cars, or if they'll remain a niche product that can only be sustained with a constant infusion of government money (and that of speculative investors).

[Cessna152]

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Originally Posted by indiajust Or even more outrageous, what if Tesla open sourced its tech to all?

Not sure if that was a rhetorical or genuine question, but in either case for those who are unaware, Tesla “open-sourced” its patents back in 2013 and some companies eventually began using them:
https://electrek.co/2015/11/10/a-num...-implications/

Likewise, it has or intends to open-source some of its software:
https://electrek.co/2018/08/11/tesla...riving-future/

[NW-Bound]

Wow, if a business is so altruistic, how can it survive?

I read the material in the above links, and it says that if a company uses Tesla's patents, then reciprocally, Tesla will also be able to use that company's patents.

I guess whether that is fair or not depends on who has more patents or important ones to trade. I can see companies smaller than Tesla would be able to take advantage of this, while larger companies with a big patent portfolio would be reluctant.

[indiajust]

Thanks for the info on the patent sharing. In an age of patent trolls, this has become the common way to defend and monetize patents. I just did not know that Tesla had already done so. Not altruism, mutual cooperative advantage.

There are plenty of good arguments for ditching the entire patent system, but in the mean time, group sharing like this is great way to turn patents into products and into money. Which is the point.

Thanks for the link.

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by NW-Bound .... I read the material in the above links, and it says that if a company uses Tesla's patents, then reciprocally, Tesla will also be able to use that company's patents. ....

Sounds like a PR move, another empty thing that the Tesla fans will lap up as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Companies use patents that way now. But they agree exactly which ones to trade. This almost sounds like a trap - use a Tesla patent, and they get all of yours? Any company with a deep patent library would never submit to that. And a small company w/o useful patents isn't a threat anyhow, and probably couldn't pay Tesla for the patent.

Maybe Tesla realized they can't monetize these patents, so decided to go for the PR instead?

-ERD50

[indiajust]

There is definitely some gamesmanship afoot. And PR of course, (it is Elon Musk). Subscribing to a patent pool as an underlying concept has been around for a while now. I suspect this is more than just PR. How much more is anyones guess.

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by indiajust There is definitely some gamesmanship afoot. And PR of course, (it is Elon Musk). Subscribing to a patent pool as an underlying concept has been around for a while now. I suspect this is more than just PR. How much more is anyones guess.

Agreed. There may be something to it, but the devil is in the details, and we probably will never know.

But as you say, Elon does gravitate towards the PR. Occom's Razor leans towards "mostly PR"

I might be wrong on this, but I thought these were patents centered around the charging station technology, which would be good to share to promote more charging stations. Offhand, I would think that would be better accomplished through the standards committees.

-ERD50

[Mr. Tightwad]

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Originally Posted by ERD50 How much did the charger/installation cost? Not saying you are a fanbois, but that's something that fanbois seem to gloss over. -ERD50

I paid $2800 due to the fact my electrical panel is on the exact opposite location from my garage....Its far cheaper if the panel is near wherever you plan to charge. 90% of the people I have heard from have paid less than me. Some are in the 500-1000 range.

In retrospect, I should not have put in a level 2 charger. EV's charge about 4 miles per hour on 110v. I drive 12-18 miles a day with about 50 miles on Sundays..110v would have easily satisfied my charging needs.

I only charge my Model 3 at home. When it gets to 45%, I charge it to 80%. This lasts me about 7 days.

I take the Model X to a supercharger (free supercharging for life). Takes about 25 minutes to charge from 50% to 80%. Charging past 80% takes much longer as the current lowers so as not to damage the battery. By the time I visit the little boys room, check my phone and poke around Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf, the car is ready.

[NW-Bound]

I talked earlier of getting a used LEAF as a 2nd car to run errands. If I get that, plugging it into a 115V outlet is all I would need.

But my friends here remind me that the battery longevity of the LEAF is not that good. It seems like Tesla cars do have a better life, according to what I have read. The battery technology is what interests me more than anything else about any EV.

[Mr. Tightwad]

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Originally Posted by NW-Bound I talked earlier of getting a used LEAF as a 2nd car to run errands. If I get that, plugging it into a 115V outlet is all I would need. But my friends here remind me that the battery longevity of the LEAF is not that good. It seems like Tesla cars do have a better life, according to what I have read. The battery technology is what interests me more than anything else about any EV.

The better life is because the Tesla batteries are liquid cooled. The 2018 Leafs are the first Leafs to have liquid cooling, just like Tesla. Thats why the older Leaf's batteries had their range diminish so rapidly. New Leafs should now retain their range like other EV's.

Picking up an EV as a 2nd car was my strategy. I liked it so much I sold my 2011 Prius for 13k and bought a 2nd EV.

[samclem]

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Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad I take the Model X to a supercharger (free supercharging for life). Takes about 25 minutes to charge from 50% to 80%.

About as much time as an oil change, and you do it every 200 miles or so.

[aja8888]

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Originally Posted by samclem About as much time as an oil change, and you do it every 200 miles or so.

And that's only a partial charge.

[NW-Bound]

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Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad The better life is because the Tesla batteries are liquid cooled. The 2018 Leafs are the first Leafs to have liquid cooling, just like Tesla. Thats why the older Leaf's batteries had their range diminish so rapidly. New Leafs should now retain their range like other EV's...

Yes. Nissan committed a major mistake with the original LEAF. But other EVs such as the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt, and even the older Volt, also employ liquid cooling.

I have not checked to see how the other batteries fare compared to Tesla's, but the reported life of the Tesla batteries is admittedly better than what I expected.

[Lakewood90712]

TSLA still holding $250 support.

As for those seeking the base model 3: No Soup For You ! Come back in 8 mo. with $40,000

https://www.thestreet.com/opinion/te...BC&cm_ven=CNBC