Waiting on Tesla Battery Day News Today

[Time2]

I would drive a go kart down the street if it could do what my cars do.

I did that! My son and I built an Electric gokart, that we drove down the street. Neighbors didn't complain as there was no noise. Doing donuts was fun!

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Even if there are superchargers in all of the places they are needed my question is this:
How many EV owners have had to wait for a vacant charger and for how long? If someone is ahead of you are they notified when their charge is done? And hopefully they will quickly come move their EV for the next person.

I've been using superchargers for 32 months. Roughly 160 times. Maybe 10 times there was no available charger as all were taken. The longest wait was 10 minutes. 5 were 2 minutes.

If there are 12 chargers like at the Downey CA location I have used the most, and it takes 20 minutes to charge from 50% to 80%, then someone drives away on average every 2 minutes. And a car leaving the station every 2 minutes is what I have observed. Waiting for a spot hasn't been an issue for me. The vast majority of times the place is 50% capacity.

The one practice that is different than pulling up to the pump at a gas station is, if the station is full, Tesla drivers form a line and as one person leaves the station, first in line takes that availability. At a gas station you park behind somebody at an individual pump, and wait for that specific spot to be available. Things move quicker when you form a line and take the next available.

Tesla sends a notification to your phone when your car is nearly done charging. I have mine set to 80%, the car stops charging at that point. If you are at dinner or shopping and you get the notification, you have 5 minutes once the car is fully charged to move it, before you get billed $1 per minute. This keeps people from blocking others.

When you arrive at the charger and plug in, the car tells you the length of time you will need to charge. 20 minutes if you arrived with 50%, maybe 40 minutes if you arrived with a 20% charge. It would require someone to have their heads in the clouds AND ignore their phone to not have a clue when their car is ready.

Every Thanksgiving week the Tesla chargers get flooded with drivers in California going North/South for the holidays, and the situation makes the news. The waits are quite long that week. Otherwise charging is simple.

 

[MRG]

Even if there are superchargers in all of the places they are needed my question is this:
How many EV owners have had to wait for a vacant charger and for how long? If someone is ahead of you are they notified when their charge is done? And hopefully they will quickly come move their EV for the next person.

I've never supercharged but the closest supercharger to me I sometimes check out the status online. There's 4 stations, high water mark I've observed is 2 people charging.

 

[NW-Bound]

AC takes very little energy. Seat heaters the same. Using the heater consumes much more. If I lived in ice country I might not have a Tesla. I don't know.

That's interesting. I don't know much about auto air conditioning, but a comparable boat air conditioner (12-15,000 BTU) will probably pull about 10 Amps at 120VAC, or 1,200 Watts. So I would have guessed running AC has a real impact on range. It would be interesting to see the specs on the Tesla AC system.

An AC takes quite a bit of energy to run, but it is small compared to what it takes to propel a car. A car going at 60 mph on a flat ground may draw 18 kW. That's 15x what the AC takes. And the AC may not have to run full blast if the car insulation is good. And not everybody lives where it's 120F in the summer.

People do not realize how cars are such energy hogs, whether ICE or EV.

 

[CaptTom]

An AC takes quite a bit of energy to run, but it is small compared to what it takes to propel a car. A car going at 60 mph on a flat ground may draw 18 kW. That's 15x what the AC takes. And the AC may not have to run full blast if the car insulation is good. And not everybody lives where it's 120F in the summer.

According to Wikipedia,

In a modern automobile, the A/C system will use around 4 horsepower (3 kW) of the engine's power

I found another site which said:

It takes about a 1/4 HP to run it on low on a cool day to over 10 HP on a hot and humid day...so about 180 to 7000 [Watts]

So, let's go with 3.5KW. That's almost 20% of your 18KW draw, or put another way, driving at 60MPH takes closer to 5 times what the AC might take.

My own experience suggests that any car in the sun, even on a cool day, is going to absorb a LOT of heat through the windows. And since we have to consider worst-case when calculating range, even the above might be overly optimistic.

People do not realize how cars are such energy hogs, whether ICE or EV.

This is very true, for both moving the car and heating/cooling it. And not just those things. I've also seen many drivers kill their starting battery by leaving the radio on too long. The whole concept of energy storage and use seems to baffle some folks.

 

[NW-Bound]

According to Wikipedia,

In a modern automobile, the A/C system will use around 4 horsepower (3 kW) of the engine's power

I do not dispute the above. The belt-driven AC compressor of an ICE car robs quite a bit of power from the engine.

However, car AC systems are not very efficient, compared to residential ACs. My 5-ton central AC burns about 5kW on a hot day. The cool air that it blows out simply cannot be matched by a vehicle AC. Of course, its condenser and evaporator are gigantic, compared to what you can fit in a car.

I was using the 1200W number that you suggested for an AC with an electric compressor for a boat. I assumed that Tesla would be able to achieve something similar, but I do not really know.

 

[aja8888]

It's interesting that EV car owners usually say they can't stand the smell of gasoline that is associated with ICE cars. For the record, ICE vehicles and gas
station dispensing pumps have been equipped with robust vapor recovery systems since the early 1980's. No smell of gasoline pumping gas or from your car, parked or driving.

Pretty weak reason in favor of EV's.

 

[pj.mask]

Lots of questions on frequent charging - as I understand it this is not done due to range anxiety but because the car charges fastest mid charge range. A battery can’t charge as fast 0-10% or 90-100% as it can 45-55%

Also current max charge rate is 250kW and I believe they are going to go WAY past that with their tab-less batteries. I believe the space will be very different in a few years.

As to cars - every family I know has 2 cars. Maybe if you are single don’t get one? But I don’t understand the need people are saying that you can’t have an EV because of all the long distance trips you take. We take a couple trips a year and we can use the gas car for that?

Based on my reading, the 90:10 ratio matches what I have seen in owners forums. This isn’t about environment (even though that is a plus) but because of how fun these cars are to drive.

 

[MRG]

Lots of questions on frequent charging - as I understand it this is not done due to range anxiety but because the car charges fastest mid charge range. A battery can’t charge as fast 0-10% or 90-100% as it can 45-55%

Also current max charge rate is 250kW and I believe they are going to go WAY past that with their tab-less batteries. I believe the space will be very different in a few years.

As to cars - every family I know has 2 cars. Maybe if you are single don’t get one? But I don’t understand the need people are saying that you can’t have an EV because of all the long distance trips you take. We take a couple trips a year and we can use the gas car for that?

Based on my reading, the 90:10 ratio matches what I have seen in owners forums. This isn’t about environment (even though that is a plus) but because of how fun these cars are to drive.

Good thoughts. We have a Wrangler Rubicon for going off in the wilderness and a Tesla for the roads. If I need to rent a vehicle, for a trip, I could but I'm not sure what you vehicles I'd be willing to drive after driving an EV. I'd prefer to consider level 2 stops to extend range rather than drive ICE.

There's a lot of folks who use public chargers in addition to faster options. I been using a free one all week and it's amazing how many people stop by to add a little juice and walk around the Riverwalk.

When I researched the Tesla I had a list of 4 requirements:
AWD
Advanced safety features
Power to pass in the mountains
Fun to drive
Lots of vehicles had the first two then the list got short by the end. Some kinda thought about saving the planet was not the main factor. If it's the right thing to do awesome.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

It's interesting that EV car owners usually say they can't stand the smell of gasoline that is associated with ICE cars. For the record, ICE vehicles and gas
station dispensing pumps have been equipped with robust vapor recovery systems since the early 1980's. No smell of gasoline pumping gas or from your car, parked or driving.

Pretty weak reason in favor of EV's.

Any gas station experience in SoCal reeks of gas fumes. Aja set up a poll. I know what everyone is going too say.

Perhaps the stench doesn't bother some. I recall forum member Joe Wras saying "he wished there was an alternative to gas stations."

I'll pass on inhaling the fumes at gas stations.

 

[aja8888]

Any gas station experience in SoCal reeks of gas fumes. Aja set up a poll. I know what everyone is going too say.

With Prop 65 protecting all you folks out there, if you are at a gas station that reeks of gas fumes, there is a phone number to call to report the operator. All stations in CA have very good vapor control systems. When I lived in Los Angeles and worked for ARCO, we put the equipment in as did all other majors.

Once again, the sensationalism about gas fumes is not justified.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

So nobody drips gasoline from their gas nozzle on to the ground? It's a frequent occurrence.

There's so many better things we could be talking about. Let those that dislike the smell of spilled gasoline object to it, and those that don't see it as a problem that's fine for them.

 

[stephenson]

I think hybrids are a great solution to EVs.

 

[Koolau]

I think hybrids are a great solution to EVs.

 

[NW-Bound]

I don't think I will live long enough to see an EV motorhome, or if it is even affordable.

Heck, I have not even seen a hybrid motorhome, or even talk about making one. And come to think of it, why there have been no hybrid trucks or delivery vans? It seems to me that for stop-and-go driving, a hybrid vehicle would save a lot on fuel.

Yet, people go directly to EV. For example, Amazon bought 1800 electric vans from Mercedes, and ordered 100,000 electric vans from Rivian. The Mercedes vans are already in use, and Amazon just got the first few vans from Rivian a couple of days ago.

I don't know about the range of these electric vans, but I suspect that they are not good enough for use as a motorhome.

 

[Koolau]

I don't think I will live long enough to see an EV motorhome, or if it is even affordable.

Heck, I have not even seen a hybrid motorhome, or even talk about making one. And come to think of it, why there have been no hybrid trucks or delivery vans? It seems to me that for stop-and-go driving, a hybrid vehicle would save a lot on fuel.

Yet, people go directly to EV. For example, Amazon bought 1800 electric vans from Mercedes, and ordered 100,000 electric vans from Rivian. The Mercedes vans are already in use, and Amazon just got the first few vans from Rivian a couple of days ago.

I don't know about the range of these electric vans, but I suspect that they are not good enough for use as a motorhome.

I've seen several hybrid busses. If they can do that, they can do a hybrid anything (including motorhome.) YMMV

 

[folivier]

A couple thoughts about an EV motorhome: the way we travel is to drive about 200-350 miles each day. Mostly we travel 1200 miles over a few days then park at different campgrounds for a week or a month over the summer. We do take a few local trips for a week or so.
The issue would be when we do park we usually have 2 air conditioners running, electric water heater, microwave, etc. all going. Will there be enough available power to also charge a HUGE battery while we are parked for 12-16 hours? Providing the additional power would be a major infrastructure expense for most campgrounds. I don't see this happening anytime soon unless you're talking about a small class b van type camper.

 

[MRG]

A couple thoughts about an EV motorhome: the way we travel is to drive about 200-350 miles each day. Mostly we travel 1200 miles over a few days then park at different campgrounds for a week or a month over the summer. We do take a few local trips for a week or so.
The issue would be when we do park we usually have 2 air conditioners running, electric water heater, microwave, etc. all going. Will there be enough available power to also charge a HUGE battery while we are parked for 12-16 hours? Providing the additional power would be a major infrastructure expense for most campgrounds. I don't see this happening anytime soon unless you're talking about a small class b van type camper.

The range for most motor home wouldn't be a problem but yes charging could be an issue. I've read quite a few people who utilize campgrounds for traveling in an EV. For them a 30 amp service is fine. A larger motor home would require much more battery and charging capacity. Not impossible but probably expensive for now.

I can easily see route vehicles being electric with current technology and infrastructure. I delivered auto parts all over north central PA when I was a kid. Never drove over 150 a day and the van sat for 16 hours every night.

 

[NW-Bound]

I brought up the motorhome to initiate a conversation, but knew that an EV motorhome would be a non-starter. Most motorhomes do not get many miles on their odometer before they are junked. The house part usually falls apart long before the chassis and the engine. The economics of a more expensive drive train do not work out.

On the other hand, here's something that should be electric: mail delivery vans used by the US Postal Service. Look at how they are restarted and stopped every 150 ft or so on their delivery route. Of course, the problem again is not technical, but that of economics. USPS is in dire need of money, and it cannot afford anything.

 

[ERD50]

Another thought on Super-Chargers on trips. I often see references to 20 minute charging times, and that appears to be the "sweet spot". From one source:

https://evcharging.enelx.com/news/blog/577-how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-a-tesla

These stations take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100% on the original 85 kWh Model S.

So doubling the time from 20 minutes to 40 minutes does not get you double the miles, that's just a limitation of the batteries, charging must be slowed down near the top (and bottom, I think).

Wiki lists the range of the 85 kWh Model S as 253–272 mi , so round up to 300 for easy math. Twenty minutes gets you 50%, 150 miles, and at 65 mph highway speeds, that's a 20 minute stop every 2:20. That's adding quite a bit of time to a trip. I assume you can't really rely on a Super-Charger being spaced exactly 150 miles apart, so it would seem you'd stop early sometimes (but then you'd hit the top earlier, and charge time per mile range would be longer), or you hit it late, and also experience longer times/mile.

Not sure how much effect that has in real life, but it doesn't sound so good for those who do a fair amount of long trips, and like to get there and get on with their business/pleasure.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by folivier View Post
Even if there are superchargers in all of the places they are needed my question is this:
How many EV owners have had to wait for a vacant charger and for how long? If someone is ahead of you are they notified when their charge is done? And hopefully they will quickly come move their EV for the next person.

... Tesla sends a notification to your phone when your car is nearly done charging. I have mine set to 80%, the car stops charging at that point. If you are at dinner or shopping and you get the notification, you have 5 minutes once the car is fully charged to move it, before you get billed $1 per minute. This keeps people from blocking others.....

Or does it?

Apparently, it is an issue, or Tesla would not have instituted this policy. But I recall an interesting podcast from the Freakonomics people about a day care having an issue with late pick ups. So they instituted a fine system. OK.

Guess what? The day care experienced MORE late pick ups! The explanation was, the parents felt they had paid for the extra time, so fine, we will use it. No guilt trip anymore!

Since your average Telsa owner must be well off, I imagine that $1 per minute isn't much of a motivation. I imagine they would rather finish their dessert, coffee or Chateau de Chassilier, than rush off to save a buck.

reference (bold mine):

https://www.thestar.com/life/health...ycare_late_fees_no_deterrent_study_finds.html

The fines that most child-care centres now charge – typically $1 per minute – to discourage adults from being tardy may actually promote lateness, researchers have found.

"Certain cues can switch moral behaviour on or off," says Samuel Bowles, director of the Behavioural Sciences Program at the Santa Fe Institute in New Mexico. "Charging for things often switches off moral behaviour."

Bowles concluded that fines can undermine a parent's sense of ethical obligation to be on time for the teachers. And lateness becomes "just another commodity" to purchase.

-ERD50

 

[Koolau]

I realize we've gotten off track from the original subject somewhat. But, it's kinda fun talking about this stuff. I'm just wondering what folks think about the relative costs of "travel" when they must use the super-chargers available along the main thoroughfares. I have no idea what current costs are.

I mentioned that my son has a Tesla (mod. 3). He bought it and moved to the Islands, believing he would be able to keep the battery charged with solar energy. He DID use his solar system to charge the car, but it was frequently not enough - don't know if the system was too small, whether it wouldn't charge fast enough (I assume it was 115 or 230 - not a supercharger set up.) SO he often used the available superchargers on the Island. He indicated it cost about 13 cents per mile to charge. Gas at the time was about $3.50. Let's use 25 mpg though a car the size of a mod. 3 should get 30+ I would guess. That would be about 14 cents per mile. SO, just for sake of argument, what do superchargers in the "electric corridor" cost per mile? No idea myself, but someone here knows.

I realize there are plusses and minuses to cost-per-mile, EV vs ICE. But what is the experience of EV owners when using superchargers for cost per mile for the fuel only? Just curious and so YMMV.

 

[biosurfer1]

Also current max charge rate is 250kW and I believe they are going to go WAY past that with their tab-less batteries. I believe the space will be very different in a few years.

I couldn't disagree more.

The limiting factor isn't the batteries, it's the grid. I work for an electric utility and just chuckle when people talk about 500kw, 750kw, or even 1MW chargers and how they will solve the charging problems.

Even the largest cities electrical grids can't handle those kind of loads popping up in random areas and for random amounts of time. If they started TODAY in preparation for those kind of loads, even in tiny amounts, it would take years and insane amounts of money to be able to handle those load profiles.

Its not a case of having the technology available, tossing up a charger and plugging it into the nearest transformer...we are talking about a complete redesign of the grid and system wide overhauls, not to mention that the demand charges of those kind of charges would require 24/7 use to make it even close to financially viable, if at all.

 

[NW-Bound]

I couldn't disagree more.

The limiting factor isn't the batteries, it's the grid. I work for an electric utility and just chuckle when people talk about 500kw, 750kw, or even 1MW chargers and how they will solve the charging problems.

Even the largest cities electrical grids can't handle those kind of loads popping up in random areas and for random amounts of time. If they started TODAY in preparation for those kind of loads, even in tiny amounts, it would take years and insane amounts of money to be able to handle those load profiles.

Its not a case of having the technology available, tossing up a charger and plugging it into the nearest transformer...we are talking about a complete redesign of the grid and system wide overhauls, not to mention that the demand charges of those kind of charges would require 24/7 use to make it even close to financially viable, if at all.

+1

Even in the 120F summer here in Phoenix when my 5-ton AC run nearly non-stop, my average usage worked out to about 5kW during daytime. An EV supercharging at 100kW is equivalent to 20 homes.

The saving grace is that an EV does not draw that 100kW for more than 1/2 hour or so, but when there are millions of them taking turn through the day, the extra load they present is going to be a burden. In places where the grid is so weak, it's going to be interesting to see how things develop.

 

[Koolau]

As one of our resident glass-half-empty kind of posters, some random thoughts come to mind based on the last few posts:

How DO we supply EVs with juice when they constitute 20% of our vehicles instead of 2%? Really, how do we generate the extra electricity? How do we deliver it to (and through) the grid? How do we wire all the houses OR supercharger stations? On and on?

I usually go to Costco Gas on Alakawa St. I do this because gas is always at least 30 cents cheaper than anywhere else on the Island. Often, the spread is greater. When sharp changes in oil prices occur, the spread can reach a dollar per gallon for a week or two. BUT every time I go, my heart sinks. The lot is virtually always full. I've waited just to pull off the street into the parking lot. Then, there are long lines to the pumps. I always figure it will take an hour. Amazingly, I don't think I've ever spent more than 15 minutes from entering the line to exiting the pumps! They have it down to a science! What would the equivalent Supercharger station look like? How long would it take to "fuel" a lot full of "thirsty" EVs (SWAG, Costco Alakawa lot must hold 130 cars and has (I think) 36 pumps.)

My original thinking was that fueling EVs would be mostly from home solar systems. My son ably demonstrated that even a committed DIYer couldn't actually make that happen consistently.

How many solar panels WOULD it take (say, all day at w*rk, the mall, or in your garage) to charge an EV for 12,000 miles/365 days = 33 miles per day? Oh, and since the sun is blocked X% per day...

Don't get me back on range anxiety...

I could go on, but these questions have most likely been asked/answered before. I'm NOT negative on EVs. I think the technology is cool and the cars can be practical and fun. Enjoyed the heck out of riding in son's Mod. 3 (once I got in, that is - but that's another story.) I just can't see how a true revolution is possible. Just sayin', so YMMV.