Expat experiences in the UK?

[Closet_Gamer]

My megacorp and I are in discussions about taking an expat assignment in the UK. The discussions are early but far enough along that DW, DD and I are having serious discussions about whether we should do it and what the acceptable parameters would be.

I would love any input from people who've done this journey.

I'm particularly interested in hearing more about:

1) Experience with American high school programs.

Specifically, The American School in England, The American School in London or the ACS family of international schools.

Also, DD is enough of an athlete that she will likely go NCAA cross country and track. Any experiences developing these talents in a UK rather than US setting?

2) Career management.

This assignment would have a return ticket of 2-3 years. I have very deliberately managed my career to date with an eye on my evolution within the company and have made it to quite an impactful yet comfy executive position. This would entail me moving from that role to a "smaller" role leveraging my experiences to help accelerate another business unit.

How I re-enter the mainstream of the corporation in a great spot is a critical question.

I also work in a highly technical field and this role would have me stepping away from fast moving technology to move of an operating, P&L role. Great experience expansion but I worry about losing my technical edge.

3) Money, money, money!

The company has a structured ex-pat program that provides support for housing, education, etc but within that framework the terms are quite broad. Any experiences with what we should ask for, particularly at an executive level, in terms a compensation boost (beyond COL and tax coverage)?

4) General experience insights with being an expat in the UK?

5) Questions I should be asking but probably am not?

Thanks for any insights you can share.

[Dd852]

We don’t have kids, so I can’t help with the #1 item on your list, other than this general comment which applies to you as well — in a lifetime of being an expat and having expat friends I’d say just be prepared for the experience to change both you and your daughter in fundamental ways. For DD in particular, do some web research on third culture kids. They’re special, for sure, but it is tricky feeling: you’re different from those you left behind, those you’re with and never quite knowing where you belong. I was an expat kid when I was 8-9, so obviously much earlier than your daughter will be, but I am sure my subsequent life of roaming the world is part of a pattern that was set back then.

#2 depends a lot on the culture of your particular company. In mine, foreign service was highly respected and it was hard to get promoted without it, so each assignment was a big step on the ladder for me. But not all companies are like that! Look carefully at colleagues who have gone abroad and come back - did it help or hurt them and how much of that can be put on the experience and how much on them. My general advice is keep the friendships and ties warm. Facebook actually serves a very important role these days. But make sure as well that you spend time on trips back, even if it should be holiday time, touching base with people. Face time, beer time, coffee time - these are the glue.

#3 One big question is what ongoing obligations will you have at home and in what currency - make sure you know how you’ll pay mortgages, college funds etc even if the £ makes a big move against you. I got both hurt and helped by currency swings over the years - every time the gap up or down was far greater than any raise! That was great in the “good” times, bad in the bad times. A gross generalization about the UK - salaries tend to be somewhat lower than the US so if you are kept whole that’s actually a comparative raise. Taxes actually work out about the same if you’re coming from a high state/local tax place in the US (I went to the UK from New York). Rents are higher for less. Be really sure you as a family are ready to compromise when it comes to square footage. I’ve known families to melt down when they realize the furniture they paid to move just won’t fit, no matter what. Do a lot of web research on real estate websites to know what you can afford and what you’ll actually get in the areas you want (presumably near the school).

#4 we loved our time and in fact came back to settle after FIRE (we were expats at a time when it was relatively easy to turn a work visa into something permanent). Again a generalization - people in the UK will leave you alone and not try to become friends. But if you DO become friends, the relationships are real and deep. This does mean you have to be prepared for some lonely times particularly at the beginning. People with kids tend to rely on the kids’ school and that community as a major social crutch.

#5 be really sure the whole family is up for the adventure. You’ll be in a work bubble. Your kid will be in a school bubble. The odd one out will be your spouse - be really sure they’re ready for the change and making their way alone. Seriously - you’ll have colleagues. Your daughter will have classmates. There’s zero ready-made structure for the “trailing spouse”. It can be a tricky issue - but those with a positive mindset, who are ready for the challenge, who have a sense of adventure and humor... it can be great.

[Totoro]

Moving support and expenses, support for tax filing in the first two years. Figuring out simple things can be a time consuming affair, so first four months some assistance there can be helpful.

What happens with pensions: if you are temporarily in the UK, where does that money go afterwards. It can be inconvenient to get it out, and then you're stuck with money in a foreign country with foreign tax rules for the rest of your career.

Also, if you are moving within a fiscal year, it might make sense to shift around bonus payments or optimize timing. Depending on how you optimize it, you might be able to split your salary across multiple countries and end up with a much lower tax bill in the first and last year.

[Scuba]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dd852 We don’t have kids, so I can’t help with the #1 item on your list, other than this general comment which applies to you as well — in a lifetime of being an expat and having expat friends I’d say just be prepared for the experience to change both you and your daughter in fundamental ways. For DD in particular, do some web research on third culture kids. They’re special, for sure, but it is tricky feeling: you’re different from those you left behind, those you’re with and never quite knowing where you belong. I was an expat kid when I was 8-9, so obviously much earlier than your daughter will be, but I am sure my subsequent life of roaming the world is part of a pattern that was set back then. #2 depends a lot on the culture of your particular company. In mine, foreign service was highly respected and it was hard to get promoted without it, so each assignment was a big step on the ladder for me. But not all companies are like that! Look carefully at colleagues who have gone abroad and come back - did it help or hurt them and how much of that can be put on the experience and how much on them. My general advice is keep the friendships and ties warm. Facebook actually serves a very important role these days. But make sure as well that you spend time on trips back, even if it should be holiday time, touching base with people. Face time, beer time, coffee time - these are the glue. #3 One big question is what ongoing obligations will you have at home and in what currency - make sure you know how you’ll pay mortgages, college funds etc even if the £ makes a big move against you. I got both hurt and helped by currency swings over the years - every time the gap up or down was far greater than any raise! That was great in the “good” times, bad in the bad times. A gross generalization about the UK - salaries tend to be somewhat lower than the US so if you are kept whole that’s actually a comparative raise. Taxes actually work out about the same if you’re coming from a high state/local tax place in the US (I went to the UK from New York). Rents are higher for less. Be really sure you as a family are ready to compromise when it comes to square footage. I’ve known families to melt down when they realize the furniture they paid to move just won’t fit, no matter what. Do a lot of web research on real estate websites to know what you can afford and what you’ll actually get in the areas you want (presumably near the school). #4 we loved our time and in fact came back to settle after FIRE (we were expats at a time when it was relatively easy to turn a work visa into something permanent). Again a generalization - people in the UK will leave you alone and not try to become friends. But if you DO become friends, the relationships are real and deep. This does mean you have to be prepared for some lonely times particularly at the beginning. People with kids tend to rely on the kids’ school and that community as a major social crutch. #5 be really sure the whole family is up for the adventure. You’ll be in a work bubble. Your kid will be in a school bubble. The odd one out will be your spouse - be really sure they’re ready for the change and making their way alone. Seriously - you’ll have colleagues. Your daughter will have classmates. There’s zero ready-made structure for the “trailing spouse”. It can be a tricky issue - but those with a positive mindset, who are ready for the challenge, who have a sense of adventure and humor... it can be great.

Excellent post. How this move would affect any benefit plans (401K, pension, deferred comp, etc.) would be important to know. In my former Megacorp, moving abroad was a great career booster, as was having operating/P&L responsibility. Good luck!

[socca]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Closet_Gamer How I re-enter the mainstream of the corporation in a great spot is a critical question.

When I returned to the U.S. after my second expatriation, I found routine megacorp life in the U.S. so boring compared to living overseas that I left megacorp within a year for new horizons, which probably wasn't what they had in mind. Just a warning: if you acquire a taste for the life of adventure overseas, you may have trouble returning!

Quote:

I also work in a highly technical field and this role would have me stepping away from fast moving technology to move of an operating, P&L role. Great experience expansion but I worry about losing my technical edge.

This is an issue for any technically-oriented person who wants to progress up the corporate ladder. If your expat experience is reasonably successful from your corp's POV, you'll position yourself for the upper echelons whether you want to go there or not.

Quote:

The company has a structured ex-pat program that provides support for housing, education, etc but within that framework the terms are quite broad. Any experiences with what we should ask for, particularly at an executive level, in terms a compensation boost (beyond COL and tax coverage)?

You'll want domestic and foreign tax preparation provided for your entire stay overseas. You'll also want tax equalization (total tax load the same as if you had remained in the U.S.). I should have paid to have a professional take care of my house while I was gone; my neighbor didn't do a good job. This is something you can ask for if you're keeping your U.S. residence. Of course, any request for benefits depends upon the strength of your negotiating position.

Quote:

General experience insights with being an expat in the UK?

My two expatriations were in France and Denmark; I can't comment on the U.K. They were the highlight of my career (easily).

Quote:

Questions I should be asking but probably am not?

I can't comment on the challenge of resettling an entire family overseas; just settling myself was challenge enough. Be prepared for things to go wrong; they will. However, depending upon your mindset and taste for adventure the pros can far outweigh the cons.

Good luck!

[Closet_Gamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dd852 We don’t have kids, so I can’t help with the #1 item on your list, other than this general comment which applies to you as well — in a lifetime of being an expat and having expat friends I’d say just be prepared for the experience to change both you and your daughter in fundamental ways. For DD in particular, do some web research on third culture kids. They’re special, for sure, but it is tricky feeling: you’re different from those you left behind, those you’re with and never quite knowing where you belong. I was an expat kid when I was 8-9, so obviously much earlier than your daughter will be, but I am sure my subsequent life of roaming the world is part of a pattern that was set back then. #2 depends a lot on the culture of your particular company. In mine, foreign service was highly respected and it was hard to get promoted without it, so each assignment was a big step on the ladder for me. But not all companies are like that! Look carefully at colleagues who have gone abroad and come back - did it help or hurt them and how much of that can be put on the experience and how much on them. My general advice is keep the friendships and ties warm. Facebook actually serves a very important role these days. But make sure as well that you spend time on trips back, even if it should be holiday time, touching base with people. Face time, beer time, coffee time - these are the glue. #3 One big question is what ongoing obligations will you have at home and in what currency - make sure you know how you’ll pay mortgages, college funds etc even if the £ makes a big move against you. I got both hurt and helped by currency swings over the years - every time the gap up or down was far greater than any raise! That was great in the “good” times, bad in the bad times. A gross generalization about the UK - salaries tend to be somewhat lower than the US so if you are kept whole that’s actually a comparative raise. Taxes actually work out about the same if you’re coming from a high state/local tax place in the US (I went to the UK from New York). Rents are higher for less. Be really sure you as a family are ready to compromise when it comes to square footage. I’ve known families to melt down when they realize the furniture they paid to move just won’t fit, no matter what. Do a lot of web research on real estate websites to know what you can afford and what you’ll actually get in the areas you want (presumably near the school). #4 we loved our time and in fact came back to settle after FIRE (we were expats at a time when it was relatively easy to turn a work visa into something permanent). Again a generalization - people in the UK will leave you alone and not try to become friends. But if you DO become friends, the relationships are real and deep. This does mean you have to be prepared for some lonely times particularly at the beginning. People with kids tend to rely on the kids’ school and that community as a major social crutch. #5 be really sure the whole family is up for the adventure. You’ll be in a work bubble. Your kid will be in a school bubble. The odd one out will be your spouse - be really sure they’re ready for the change and making their way alone. Seriously - you’ll have colleagues. Your daughter will have classmates. There’s zero ready-made structure for the “trailing spouse”. It can be a tricky issue - but those with a positive mindset, who are ready for the challenge, who have a sense of adventure and humor... it can be great.

Very helpful.

The currency conversion hadn't even occurred to me.

I do think a successful expat stint will be a "feather in the cap" item that will should be helpful in positioning me. Reality is that I'm in a great spot right now...so hard to value that upside against a very good current situation.

Thanks for the space pointers. My instinct is to rent everything while we're there...living space and the furniture to go into it. We'd keep our home in the states in place and accessible.

Right on in terms of the family stuff. DD is up for it. DW is up for it, but I'm very concerned about the trailing spouse issue. I feel like we need some explicit plan for it.

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

[Closet_Gamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totoro Moving support and expenses, support for tax filing in the first two years. Figuring out simple things can be a time consuming affair, so first four months some assistance there can be helpful. What happens with pensions: if you are temporarily in the UK, where does that money go afterwards. It can be inconvenient to get it out, and then you're stuck with money in a foreign country with foreign tax rules for the rest of your career. Also, if you are moving within a fiscal year, it might make sense to shift around bonus payments or optimize timing. Depending on how you optimize it, you might be able to split your salary across multiple countries and end up with a much lower tax bill in the first and last year.

Thanks. The tax stuff already has me scared. I don't have a pension, but I hadn't even thought about "forever" tax impacts on things like NQDC.

Nor did I consider there might be ways to optimize when the income arrives to lower the bill.

Thanks for the insights.

[Closet_Gamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba Excellent post. How this move would affect any benefit plans (401K, pension, deferred comp, etc.) would be important to know. In my former Megacorp, moving abroad was a great career booster, as was having operating/P&L responsibility. Good luck!

Thanks. The money issues are top of mind. No clue how benefits work in such a transition. Does the UK even recognize the concept of a 401K? NQDC? Totally new ground for me.

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

[Closet_Gamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by socca When I returned to the U.S. after my second expatriation, I found routine megacorp life in the U.S. so boring compared to living overseas that I left megacorp within a year for new horizons, which probably wasn't what they had in mind. Just a warning: if you acquire a taste for the life of adventure overseas, you may have trouble returning! This is an issue for any technically-oriented person who wants to progress up the corporate ladder. If your expat experience is reasonably successful from your corp's POV, you'll position yourself for the upper echelons whether you want to go there or not. You'll want domestic and foreign tax preparation provided for your entire stay overseas. You'll also want tax equalization (total tax load the same as if you had remained in the U.S.). I should have paid to have a professional take care of my house while I was gone; my neighbor didn't do a good job. This is something you can ask for if you're keeping your U.S. residence. Of course, any request for benefits depends upon the strength of your negotiating position. My two expatriations were in France and Denmark; I can't comment on the U.K. They were the highlight of my career (easily). I can't comment on the challenge of resettling an entire family overseas; just settling myself was challenge enough. Be prepared for things to go wrong; they will. However, depending upon your mindset and taste for adventure the pros can far outweigh the cons. Good luck!

I believe the company provides tax equalization and some tax assistance.

On the career stuff, thanks for the insights. I've done non-tech stuff before (sales, etc.) but I've always come home to product/tech side. Right now things are changing particularly quickly in my field from a tech perspective and I'm in the middle of the action. Its a particularly dicey time to step out and then try to come back.

Never thought of a professional house sitter. Great idea.

Thanks for the well wishes. Its interesting how many people tell me that their expat experiences were the best part of their careers.

Thanks for the post!

[BigNick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Closet_Gamer Thanks. The money issues are top of mind. No clue how benefits work in such a transition. Does the UK even recognize the concept of a 401K? NQDC? Totally new ground for me.

The UK has the concept of tax-deferred retirement schemes, but whether contributions to an American scheme can be deducted from UK salaries is an interesting question. Couple that with the fact that you will still be paying some US taxes (more or less uniquely, the US levies federal taxes on non-residents, although most countries including the UK allow you to deduct those, thus not paying double), and you should probably get professional tax advice. A megacorp that deals with any non-trivial number of overseas placements ought to have tax advisors on retainer that you could consult with; otherwise, get your own advice and send the invoice to HR. The questions are not complicated, and will surely have been answered many times already, but you need the answers to do your planning.

In terms of benefits, I would recommend asking for your housing costs allowance (a) to be paid in GBP (to avoid the effects of currency fluctuations) and (b) to include "Council Tax", which is your contribution to municipal funds in the town or district where you live. This can represent quite a substantial amount of money on a nice home. Many people pay it monthly.

One area where you might be able to put something on the table yourself is medical insurance. The UK National Health Service is a long way from perfect, and you should definitely get private medical cover for elective stuff, but if you get badly ill, the NHS will be what saves you, and as a resident and taxpayer, you should be covered for free. (Again, check this, but I believe it to be the case). Because the private hospitals and insurers know that the NHS will take the strain for the big-ticket stuff, insurance is a whole lot cheaper than in the US. So perhaps this saving can find its way to you in the form of other benefits. Of course, you will still need to be covered for visits to the US, but maybe you can do that with travel insurance.

[clobber]

#1: I really like the look of TASIS (visited the campus), though it is kinda an uppity Harry Potter place -ha. Would certainly send kids there, no problem. If you are into sports they even have a baseball team and they play schools from the continent. Hard to find that outside of USA (except some places mostly in Asia).

#4: That really would require writing a dissertation. But - presumably you would be living in London because of the schools you mentioned. What's not to like? The company pays for you to live in U.K for a few years and on the weekends you get to got to Brussels, Paris, etc. Sounds like a real dilemma! Of course, it will be hard to buy Cheerios, you'll wonder why all salads come with "cream," and you will never figure out why they have so much disdain for the French yet still offer you a serviette at dinner (or is it tea?)

#5: What are the pros/cons for my kids? How will it affect my kids when we return to USA? What will my wife do all day while I am at work?

[socca]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Closet_Gamer Thanks. The money issues are top of mind.

Don't forget - some experiences are priceless.

A successful expatriation makes your unique value proposition (UVP) much more compelling compared to your peers who have never had the opportunity. The same concept applies to DD when it comes time for her to apply to colleges.

One way to think of your expatriation is as a form of cognitive exercise. If you survive / thrive, your mind will have been very well exercised. This also applies to your DW and DD.

I'm definitely not trying to push you into accepting the opportunity. In my case, it was a no-brainer, but my life had far fewer moving parts than yours. If you've already built a great life for yourself in your current situation, throwing it all away for the great unknown is a tricky decision to make.

[jim584672]

I looked into the UK a bit. For those under a visa they have a NHS surcharge for 400 pounds a year, plus regular taxes to pay for the NHS. Double whammy. All part of the "hostile environment" policy to bring down immigration. Visa fees can add up to thousands of pounds.

[bigreader]

I did this three times: a six month stay in Thames Valley, three years in Geneva and two years in Helsinki.


1) Experience with American high school programs.
Our only experience was with international grade schools in Geneva. Teaching and academics were fine, but a bit more traditional and the curriculum, understandably, didn’t full line up with that in the US. There is a lot of coming and going at these schools, which the school handled well, and a lot of entitlement among some of the students and their parents, which was eye-opening.


2) Career management.
Reentry can be a big, big problem. You might be solving an issue for the company in London, but you will be outside the corporate mainstream. Try your best to get a commitment upfront but realize that you will return to a different corporate world and you will be a different employee. For example, I did not have a soft landing on reentry from Geneva, but I had the exact experience for a bigger opportunity outside the company. All good.


3) Money, money, money!
You really want to understand this. I had two different kinds of expat programs. The first was the equalization program. The company paid for housing, medical, car allowance and tuition in local currency. I had a COL in local currency. The company also took all responsibilities for paying state, US and UK taxes. I paid “estimated taxes” from my paycheck to the company and these equalization payments were compared to my tax liability. In my case and others, the estimated taxes held out were grossly inadequate and there were 5 figure gotchas during true up. Also, the company’s accountants did a less than great job preparing state and Federal taxes, and I have the audits to prove it! The good news about this approach is that in theory, things are financially even and your currency risk is low. You will continue to pay social security and collect pension credit (or 401k matches) in the US. I would have liked to have more control over filing my state and federal taxes and you might want to make sure that your accountant reviews all the US based filings.
Second program just provided money, family medical and tax help. All payments were in Euros, no social security paid in the US (which can have long term implications), employment-based foreign pension accrued, and separate retirement plan in Euros in a UK bank (so no US tax benefits). Tax support was offered for US and foreign filings. I took the money and handled my business. Currency risk was higher, but I strongly preferred this plan. The equalization plans made me feel like I was living in the company town and buying from the company store.



4) General experience insights with being an expat in the UK?
Similar language, different culture. I wonder how it will be post-Brexit but this was a good first expat assignment for me. Go with an open mind and a playful attitude and you will be fine. You and your family will have the chance to see the UK and Europe in ways that you could not have imagined.


5) Questions I should be asking but probably am not?
As noted, this is a big family change, most particularly for your partner, but the UK is probably the easiest place to get traction. Pets? They are a huge issue in the UK. Cars? I found it surprisingly expensive to store a car. Home? We rented our home, it worked out OK but plan on spending some money to freshen it up before you get back. And if you take the job, give some though about how to manage internationally – it is different. Oddly, I found reentry to the US surprisingly hard, considering I was coming "home."

Best of luck with your decision. My experiences were not always easy but always worth it!
BR

[Texas Proud]

I was supposed to do about 6 months in the UK but it turned into 18 as two acquisitions occurred when i was over there...


Be sure that you know how you are being paid. I was still being paid in dollars with a US cost center. Lucky for me I only had to pay for food and transportation. I got a sign on bonus in the local currency and that lasted me a good amount of my time there.


The other thing that I made sure is that my tax equalization was based on where I lived, not company headquarters where they tried to put me. I pay no state income tax and did not want to have the state taxes of NY taken out of my pay just to go overseas.


I also had them pay for my housing over there. BUT, be ready for downsizing as mentioned. Even the beds seem to be smaller than here...


Also plan for a travel budget. I tried to get out somewhere every other weekend. Mostly day trips from London, but I did take some 2 and 3 day trips... and even a few 4 days flying to Europe... or take the high speed train to Paris.


It was a blast and I would recommend it to anybody who has the opportunity. Heck, at the end of my time I was trying to get the to send me to Asia as they had an opening there just when I was leaving. However, expats cost a company a pretty penny if they are short term and have to provide housing and they do not want to to that as a rule. Funny thing is I became an 'expat' working in NYC... they provided me an apartment since I took a job that needed to be filled within days and I knew how to do it.

[socca]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigreader Also, the company’s accountants did a less than great job preparing state and Federal taxes, and I have the audits to prove it!

Good point. Megacorp contracted with and paid a major international accounting firm to do my domestic and foreign taxes, and do the tax equalization calculation. Unfortunately, this effectively made megacorp the accounting firm's client, not me. This made me a little nervous - who had access to and was reviewing my tax returns within megacorp? There was a brief squabble when megacorp found out that I needed tax prep for multiple U.S. states; no problem - they paid for it. However, if I had contracted directly with the accounting firm myself (making me the client rather than megacorp), this problem would have been avoided. I just could have provided megacorp with the tax prep bill for reimbursement like any other business expense.

Some food for thought.

[Texas Proud]

Oh yea, be very careful about the taxes.... it was one of the majors that did it but all they did was put stuff in a program and spit out something...


Each and every year they made a major mistake... I know because I actually did expat tax return when I first got out of college... I was actually surprised how little the 'tax expert' knew of the tax law...



BUT, I really did not care about the tax return... I only cared about the equalization.... if the company wants to pay too much taxes for me then so be it... but if the equalization calculation is wrong then that is money out of my pocket...

[Closet_Gamer]

Wow. So many thoughtful replies. Thanks!

All of the tax and currency stuff is so outside of my experience. I will have to triple check that if we get to the point of organizing an employment agreement.

The career re-entry point is now near the top of the pile of concerns. Its possible that this winds up being an un-intended transition out of the company and I will need to plan for that eventuality. Its ironic, because right now I'm quite happy and have no intention of leaving the company. Would be a bit of chuckle if they give me this great career experience, we fumble the re-entry and I wound up out of the company.

The healthcare point is one that I haven't researched yet. I think the company provides some sort of support, but will need to understand that lots better. Thanks for highlighting that.

I'm told that getting pets into the UK is much easier than it used to be, but if the furry guy can't go, neither DD nor DW will get on the plane. Will need to sort that one.

Can't agree more with all of the comments on the great experiences on offer by doing this. I think the family, including me, is largely there in terms of willingness to give it go in order to gain those experiences. Hence my focus on all of the practical -- money, taxes, insurance, career -- questions.

Super helpful comments everyone. Thanks for taking the time to share your perspectives.

More feedback welcome!

[Teacher Terry]

I would look at pet quarantine rules because some countries require it for 6 months. Hopefully there isn’t one. I like your wife and daughter)

[Texas Proud]

Not sure how it is today but when I went I was told I was signed up for their free healthcare... if you work it seems that you are..


Now, some companies offer health insurance for private docs... back then you could even get them to come to your flat...




On your reentry... it could go the other way... while I was over there the group that I was in was let go... I would have been included in that culling except I was not there... I then went to another 'temp' job for 3 years... then that group was going to be disbanded... moved back to Texas and was able to get a good position for a few years before the new manager wanted everybody in NY and laid off most all experienced people... so I missed two layoffs but got hit by the third one..