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Old 06-10-2019, 11:45 AM   #21
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The first two, (although Belarus's* visa requirements appear to be an unnecessary PITA), anyway......the other two are a little further afield, and, I suspect, not worth the trouble.

We'd go back to Romania & Bulgaria.

*Got talking to a guy from Belarus a year or so back while on one of our favorite cruise lines....Pullmantur.......he recommended it.

I visited Belarus last summer. Very nice and uncrowded.

I heard they expanded their arrive & depart-by-air travel to a 30-day stay, with NO visa required (ipo the 5-day no-visa stay when I visited in 2018.)

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Old 06-10-2019, 11:49 AM   #22
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I was reading recently about the crowds ascending Mount Everest. According to the NYT, the summit is a flat space about the size of two ping-pong tables, and climbers had to wait for hours on a narrow approach before space opened up for them on the peak. Just insane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/w...st-deaths.html
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:52 AM   #23
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I visited Belarus last summer. Very nice and uncrowded.

I heard they expanded their arrive & depart-by-air visa to a 30-day stay (ipo the 5-day stay when I visited in 2018.)

omni
Our (since torpedoed) hope was to catch trains from Kiev, through Belarus, to Vilnius.

We were aware of the (at that time) fly-in-fly-out through Minsk no visa 'deal', but, IIRC, one was pretty much confined to Minsk & environs.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:12 PM   #24
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Hmmm... I guess I'd better start thinking seriously about Belarus, despite my philosophy of not visiting places with authoritarian regimes.

Heck, I see that there are tour companies who even take tourists into the Chernobyl zone.

There's nothing like posting a video of yourself holding a Geiger counter, I'll tell ya.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:14 PM   #25
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It is everywhere. We went on a trip last late winter to a Mediterranean area and the tourism was crushing, despite lousy weather.

On another thread we were talking about hiking in the USA and how the trails are overflowing and metered in many places.

"Experiences, not things."

I dunno. Experiences like some I have seen, I do not need. Things look more and more appealin' to me, I tell ya.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:43 PM   #26
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At least in my neck of the woods, I blame the staggering increase of tourists on the financial prosperity of China. Hundreds of millions of middle-class Chinese have been unleashed onto the world tourist sights.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:44 PM   #27
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We were there for a week in early 2014, when there was a newly instituted ban on cruise ships. I believe the ban was overturned in court later that year. It was nice to have fewer people crowding the streets, although it was still quite busy in the Piazza San Marco.
Apparently it’s back on, but delayed until 2021 or something.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:50 PM   #28
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At least in my neck of the woods, I blame the staggering increase of tourists on the financial prosperity of China. Hundreds of millions of middle-class Chinese have been unleashed onto the world tourist sights.
This is very noticeable in Europe, and they are usually the ones hogging scenic spots while taking tons of selfies or of each other.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:04 PM   #29
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I remember in the late 80s, Hawaii was overran by Japanese tourists. Stores everywhere had signs in Japanese. Now, it's the Chinese, but they travel further now, just like every nationality does now.

In the recent RV trip, driving down I-15 I stopped for fuel about 100 miles north of Salt Lake City. This Love's or Pilot truck stop had signs in Chinese. What? Just as we lingered there to rest, I saw a big tour bus pulling in to drop off the Chinese tourists to use the restroom and to buy snacks.

What were they doing passing through here? Then, it dawned on me that they were going to or from Yellowstone NP to Las Vegas, or perhaps LA.

Well, they have money now, and they can afford to travel just like everyone else. It's all fair, I guess.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:07 PM   #30
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We've had this dream to go hike between the towns of the Cinque Terre when the weather is nice, after ER and while we are still young enough to enjoy it. Sadly, I am not sure there is an intersection point that doesn't include overcrowding.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:12 PM   #31
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It is everywhere. We went on a trip last late winter to a Mediterranean area and the tourism was crushing, despite lousy weather.

On another thread we were talking about hiking in the USA and how the trails are overflowing and metered in many places.

"Experiences, not things."
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:14 PM   #32
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We've had this dream to go hike between the towns of the Cinque Terre when the weather is nice, after ER and while we are still young enough to enjoy it. Sadly, I am not sure there is an intersection point that doesn't include overcrowding.
We did that back ~2005. Was somewhat crowded but still great. Went back 2016 & crowds were near unbearable - in early Oct.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:55 PM   #33
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When we went to the Louvre a few years ago we tried to see the Mona Lisa, but it looked much like this, probably worse. We could barely get into the room. We didn't notice anyone being aggressive, but the crowd wasn't moving and I don't know how long, if ever, we'd have had to wait to get a good view. We just moved on. Not a big deal to us.

We were there in '17. The "mob" moved pretty regular. A few would get to the front then cycle on back. Mrs Scrapr got a couple of hard pushes and almost knocked her down. She guessed nationality as Eastern Europe. Apparently pickpockets work that room pretty regular. By the time we finished in mid afternoon the tour groups were getting kind of annoying. 25 people huddle around a sculpture as their guide talks through their headset. Very difficult for anyone else to see the sculpture

Don't tell anyone...we liked the D'Orsay better

Here is a story about the town next to Venice

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/t...sultPosition=1
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:48 PM   #34
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At least in my neck of the woods, I blame the staggering increase of tourists on the financial prosperity of China. Hundreds of millions of middle-class Chinese have been unleashed onto the world tourist sights.
When we were in Barcelona, at Park Quell , a Chinese lady wanted to buy a souvenir, it was pricey at about 60 Euros.
The clerk was pretty happy someone was going to spend more than me (a fridge magnet).
But he nearly exploded when she pulled out a 500 Euro bill, he gave her a lecture on how it was insulting to show that much money.

I always try to get a bunch of low value bills in a different country, but maybe the Chinese don't have credit cards ? so they need to carry lots of cash ??
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:19 AM   #35
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We used to live on the Seine diagonally across from the Louvre. There is always a line to get in. (Insider hint: it is open one night and there's never anyone there...and it may still be free as well)

I wonder if, because Notre Dame is closed (another crowded area) if the crowds are worse (doubled) because half the tourists should be at Notre Dame but have fewer places to go now.
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:28 AM   #36
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The was a huge crowd of people like that around the Mona Lisa when we went to the Louvre 25 years ago, although she did not have her own special room back then.
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:36 AM   #37
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We just returned from Paris last night. I had put all my preparation into Madrid, Granada and Barcelona, and didn't realize the more popular Paris attractions require purchasing tickets prior online. We had to substitute the D'Orsay for the Louvre, however the Louvre can get pretty overwhelming anyway.

Paris had the D Day anniversary, the French Open (tennis) and the huge soccer tournament for women going on at the same time--and we didn't feel any of them. It's a big city that can handle traffic. We did find many Far Easterners in town, and they were very rude and difficult to deal with in tight places and ques.

We were traveling later in the year than usual due to taking our 7 year old granddaughter. European air conditioning is still not up to North American standards, and we were quite uncomfortable generally in public places. Future trips will not be in June-August.

There are still many off the beaten path cities to visit in Europe. Now that we're of real retirement age, we still plan to visit new places while the "gettin's good". Our biggest gripe on the trip is very negative experiences in airports--specifically Charles de Gaulle and Boston Logan Airport.

And as always, we're very glad to get home and return to our daily routine. I just fear all those charge card transactions beat me home.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:15 AM   #38
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We just returned from Paris last night. I had put all my preparation into Madrid, Granada and Barcelona, and didn't realize the more popular Paris attractions require purchasing tickets prior online. We had to substitute the D'Orsay for the Louvre, however the Louvre can get pretty overwhelming anyway.

Paris had the D Day anniversary, the French Open (tennis) and the huge soccer tournament for women going on at the same time--and we didn't feel any of them. It's a big city that can handle traffic. We did find many Far Easterners in town, and they were very rude and difficult to deal with in tight places and ques.

We were traveling later in the year than usual due to taking our 7 year old granddaughter. European air conditioning is still not up to North American standards, and we were quite uncomfortable generally in public places. Future trips will not be in June-August.

There are still many off the beaten path cities to visit in Europe. Now that we're of real retirement age, we still plan to visit new places while the "gettin's good". Our biggest gripe on the trip is very negative experiences in airports--specifically Charles de Gaulle and Boston Logan Airport.

And as always, we're very glad to get home and return to our daily routine. I just fear all those charge card transactions beat me home.
A guide in Xian told me, "there is no personal space in China." I experienced a similar custom in Arab nations.

My sister, who lived in China for 5 years, sees it this way: the people lack trust in their society, so they push to get ahead because there may not be enough for all. Go to Walmart when the store opens on Black Friday and you'll see the same behavior.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:40 AM   #39
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Travel off season......We went to London and Paris last January. Weather in the 50's. No crowds. Versaille to ourselves. Windsor Castle all ours. Locals were "the crowd" and the folks were glad to see us and take their time to chat.

Our plan is to never travel "in season". We will see how it goes when we head to Florence/Venice in late October.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:51 AM   #40
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We were in Europe last April. Although, it is still off-season, it is still very crowded in Venice, Rome, Paris, Bruges, Amsterdam, Berlin. I can't image in-season.

Overtourism is real.
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