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Old 10-12-2018, 03:45 PM   #41
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In case anyone wonders what you can possibly see on such a busy schedule, here's what I recall, recorded, or have pictures of. It's fun to recall the trip.

.....

I think we spent about 38 hours on trains in 3 weeks, not counting the one overnight train where we'd have been sleeping anyway. The nice thing is they were almost always on time or within 15 minutes, no security to clear or baggage to wait for as with flying, and they were almost all right in the middle of where we wanted to be. We used the train time to catch up on sleep, for reviewing/planning what do do at the next stop, and just downtime. On longer trains we usually took a meal of some kind.
Wow. Great details of your itinerary, many cities that are on my list. I think I just need to modify it a little to finalize my route.

Thanks again RM - also big thanks to everyone here.
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:15 AM   #42
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I often laughed when people in my bridge club said they have been to all the places that we’ve been. Now I know how it’s possible.
As far as I can tell, predominant among the relatively wide variety of travelers are hummingbirds and chameleons; hummingbirds flit from place to place with a predetermined checklist of 'must sees', while chameleons are slower, and attempt to blend into their surroundings.

We are of the latter group and try to absorb the atmosphere and character of a locale rather than keep score - we have friends who would likely fall into the hummingbird category; nice folks, but we wouldn't travel with them for long.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:43 AM   #43
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As far as I can tell, predominant among the relatively wide variety of travelers are hummingbirds and chameleons; hummingbirds flit from place to place with a predetermined checklist of 'must sees', while chameleons are slower, and attempt to blend into their surroundings.

We are of the latter group and try to absorb the atmosphere and character of a locale rather than keep score - we have friends who would likely fall into the hummingbird category; nice folks, but we wouldn't travel with them for long.
I agree that incompatible types like that shouldn't travel together, but I think you are mis-characterizing people not like you.

I guess you think listing places you've been as keeping score. I only did that to refute the poster who said you'd only see train stations and where you're staying if you travel that much. As I look at my itinerary plan, I see that in most places we didn't get to everything on the list of each city, unless it was very small and targeted, like the castles near Fussen so I'll dispute that checklist notion.

It's totally true that we had a list of places we wanted to see--not what others say we "must see" but what we wanted to see. Certainly if we're going to the Rhine Valley, for example, we're going to see castles, and focus on the popular ones because they are popular for the reason of being well preserved or bigger or more historic. A checklist? No, an organized list of what we'd like to do, in order of preference and convenience.

If a place didn't really grab our attention, we'd leave. Why burn limited time when it doesn't interest us? Do we have to stay and hope something interesting will happen? Most common were places that were interesting enough to go through them, but not to spend extra time. And a few really did get our attention to spend extended time. I don't ever recall saying that we needed to leave a place to have time to see other things on our list; but I would say that if we wanted to see this other place we'd have to leave, but we have the choice to stay where we are and skip the other. It's not a checklist or keeping score as you say; I'd just rather see more things and get exposed to different things than try to absorb everything I could out of a few places. There were definitely times when we got to a new place and commented on how we were so glad we bailed on the previous place so we'd have time to enjoy this. And we didn't always have to go to a "place". A few times we just sat in a square or a sidewalk cafe having ice cream, a beer, or tea, and enjoyed the atmosphere, but an hour of that was plenty for us, not a whole afternoon, and not every day.

Sure, you could say that if we didn't keep moving around so much we would've had time to see everything we wanted, relax in a square every day, and also hang longer at places to give them a chance, but then we would've missed some places that we liked a lot more than we thought.

I like Rick Steves books and videos for travel advice, but one thing that bugs me is that he tends to shun the popular for the obscure. I remember a show on the Swiss Alps, where he featured a mountain dairy farm. I grew up in the midwest. Why in the world would I spend time and money to go to the Swiss Alps and look at cows? I want to go see the drop-dead views, even if it's a tourist site and I won't soak up the local culture nearly as much.

I understand people who want to do this; it's not for us. But I'm not going to characterize them with some semi-derogatory terms. Maybe you don't think you are doing this, but "flit" and "checklist" are pretty unflattering terms to use for a style you don't like.
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Old 10-13-2018, 08:12 AM   #44
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As far as I can tell, predominant among the relatively wide variety of travelers are hummingbirds and chameleons; hummingbirds flit from place to place with a predetermined checklist of 'must sees', while chameleons are slower, and attempt to blend into their surroundings.

We are of the latter group and try to absorb the atmosphere and character of a locale rather than keep score - we have friends who would likely fall into the hummingbird category; nice folks, but we wouldn't travel with them for long.
"Hummingbirds" or whatever you want to call them, miss the best parts of a country buy "buzzing" from major city to major city. In the case of Switzerland, there are far better places to visit than Zurich, Luzerne, Bern, or Geneva (which are all nice cities). Places like Gruyere, Lauterbrunnen, Grindelwald, Iseltwald Montreux, Zermatt and Lugano are often missed and are some of the best places to visit. The same can be said about Italy. Most people visit Milan, Rome, Florence, and Venice. Some of the nicest places in Italy are in the north near the Swiss border. Stresa and the Borromean Islands are considered by the locals (in the north) to be one of the nicest regions in Italy. After multiple visits there, I would have to agree.
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Old 10-13-2018, 08:26 AM   #45
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. But I'm not going to characterize them with some semi-derogatory terms. Maybe you don't think you are doing this, but "flit" and "checklist" are pretty unflattering terms to use for a style you don't like.
Sorry that you appear to have taken it personally, but it really wasn't about you, but rather observations of people in general, (as to semi-derogatory I'd posit that self describing as a chameleon might be more unflattering than calling some others 'hummingbirds' ), and I have encountered both types.....plus offshoots of both.

(As to Rick Steves, DW & I have seen a couple/few of his vids and we don't get the attraction/adulation either.)

Again...sorry for any offence.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:16 AM   #46
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I agree that incompatible types like that shouldn't travel together, but I think you are mis-characterizing people not like you.

I guess you think listing places you've been as keeping score. I only did that to refute the poster who said you'd only see train stations and where you're staying if you travel that much. As I look at my itinerary plan, I see that in most places we didn't get to everything on the list of each city, unless it was very small and targeted, like the castles near Fussen so I'll dispute that checklist notion.

It's totally true that we had a list of places we wanted to see--not what others say we "must see" but what we wanted to see. Certainly if we're going to the Rhine Valley, for example, we're going to see castles, and focus on the popular ones because they are popular for the reason of being well preserved or bigger or more historic. A checklist? No, an organized list of what we'd like to do, in order of preference and convenience.

If a place didn't really grab our attention, we'd leave. Why burn limited time when it doesn't interest us? Do we have to stay and hope something interesting will happen? Most common were places that were interesting enough to go through them, but not to spend extra time. And a few really did get our attention to spend extended time. I don't ever recall saying that we needed to leave a place to have time to see other things on our list; but I would say that if we wanted to see this other place we'd have to leave, but we have the choice to stay where we are and skip the other. It's not a checklist or keeping score as you say; I'd just rather see more things and get exposed to different things than try to absorb everything I could out of a few places. There were definitely times when we got to a new place and commented on how we were so glad we bailed on the previous place so we'd have time to enjoy this. And we didn't always have to go to a "place". A few times we just sat in a square or a sidewalk cafe having ice cream, a beer, or tea, and enjoyed the atmosphere, but an hour of that was plenty for us, not a whole afternoon, and not every day.

Sure, you could say that if we didn't keep moving around so much we would've had time to see everything we wanted, relax in a square every day, and also hang longer at places to give them a chance, but then we would've missed some places that we liked a lot more than we thought.

I like Rick Steves books and videos for travel advice, but one thing that bugs me is that he tends to shun the popular for the obscure. I remember a show on the Swiss Alps, where he featured a mountain dairy farm. I grew up in the midwest. Why in the world would I spend time and money to go to the Swiss Alps and look at cows? I want to go see the drop-dead views, even if it's a tourist site and I won't soak up the local culture nearly as much.

I understand people who want to do this; it's not for us. But I'm not going to characterize them with some semi-derogatory terms. Maybe you don't think you are doing this, but "flit" and "checklist" are pretty unflattering terms to use for a style you don't like.
I guess we are hummingbirds if there is a need to create stereotypes, but I think of myself more as having travel attention deficit disorder. More than three nights in one place is usually too much for me—I’m ready to move on to the next one. I’ve never ever minded being perceived as a tourist because duh. We really are tourists, respectful and friendly, but still tourists, and truthfully that has added to our enjoyment, to share both ways. I don’t mind seeing the places a country is historically famous for—there is so much to see and for most of us our travel time is finite, so focusing on what makes a country or region special surely can’t be a bad thing. Do I want to be the person who eschewed Edinburgh Castle because everyone goes there, and miss having young Mary almost come to life for me as we toured it?

I notice just a bit here but mainly among some of our real life friends there is a certain competitiveness about traveling that gets tiresome. Different styles for travel and everything else for different people, but if I tell my travel competitive friend when asked that we went to this restaurant in this particular city, for example, I would rather talk about that for at least a minute before they tell me all about a different restaurant in a different city that they know we’ve not been to but they have. They seem to need to be the discoverers of new places sometimes.

I love reading everyone’s posts here and seeing the sights vicariously—the different styles are most interesting, and keep those photos coming!
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:34 AM   #47
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Sorry that you appear to have taken it personally, but it really wasn't about you, but rather observations of people in general, (as to semi-derogatory I'd posit that self describing as a chameleon might be more unflattering than calling some others 'hummingbirds' ), and I have encountered both types.....plus offshoots of both.

(As to Rick Steves, DW & I have seen a couple/few of his vids and we don't get the attraction/adulation either.)

Again...sorry for any offence.
It's not the animal you assign, if's how you describe them. Hummingbirds flit with a checklist in hand, keeping score...chameleons absorb the atmosphere and character of a locale. That's a pretty biased observation, complimentary to your type and not very flattering to the hummingbird types--though I know there are a few exactly like that. I could come up with equally unflattering observations of the type you call chameleons, but I won't, because I know they don't apply to most.

Relating this to the OP, my point is that there have been a lot of people stating in absolute terms that their agenda is way too busy, and I'm saying for some types of people, it is not. I'm using myself as an example, cautioning that my style may not work for everyone, but that trip has very pleasant memories for us. But the OP doesn't need to fit in with what seems to be the majority view here if that's not for them, and judging by their plan it sounds like they're more like me. I'm not taking what you're saying personally (maybe a little), but I'm not letting your (and other's) biases influence the OP without challenging them. That's all.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:18 AM   #48
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Well, I admit that I made the comment about 15 cities in 3 weeks without putting the OP's list on a map to see how one can plan an itinerary to see them all. It may be reasonable, if they are in groups that one can make easy daily excursions from a base to nearby towns.

I will have to sit down to list out the places that we visited in our 6-week auto trip last year. There were only about 6 main stops where we rented Airbnb's. But we made day trips which were easy with the leased car, and in fact I planned the itinerary with the car in mind to visit the French and Italian countrysides. On the way, we also had some freebies when stopping to visit towns along the route. We needed to stop to stretch our legs, and to have lunch anyway.

So, if I sat down and counted these stops and daily excursions, the list can get quite long.

By the way, the car trip was very enjoyable, as we had done several trips using public transport and saw the large cities. Out in the countryside, having a car makes it a lot easier, and takes much less time than sitting out by the side of the road with your luggage to wait for a country bus. The real trouble is finding a place to park, which can be tough even in small towns, not just major cities.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:33 AM   #49
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As an example of what I was alluding to earlier, when we announced we were visiting Bulgaria prior to catching a ship for a transatlantic cruise, I exchanged a couple posts on another site with someone who thought going there was 'exotic'.

Reading the entire thread it became apparent that the majority of contributors flew into the city closest to the point of departure, arranged for private transportation airport - hotel, (where the rest of them were staying), and then they all went en masse to the ship.

No thank you.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:35 AM   #50
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"Hummingbirds" or whatever you want to call them, miss the best parts of a country buy "buzzing" from major city to major city. In the case of Switzerland, there are far better places to visit than Zurich, Luzerne, Bern, or Geneva (which are all nice cities). Places like Gruyere, Lauterbrunnen, Grindelwald, Iseltwald Montreux, Zermatt and Lugano are often missed and are some of the best places to visit. The same can be said about Italy. Most people visit Milan, Rome, Florence, and Venice. Some of the nicest places in Italy are in the north near the Swiss border. Stresa and the Borromean Islands are considered by the locals (in the north) to be one of the nicest regions in Italy. After multiple visits there, I would have to agree.
I save a little bit of every country that I’ve been to so I have an incentive to go back. I stay mostly to the one side of Switzerland because of convenience. Next time if I do another country within close distance to the other side of Switzerland, then I visit those places you mention.

Even for the UK, which is like my adopted country through marriage, I’ve been there more than 10 times but less than 20 times, I have not visited Stonehenge and York. I might do that next time.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:39 AM   #51
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As an example of what I was alluding to earlier, when we announced we were visiting Bulgaria prior to catching a ship for a transatlantic cruise, I exchanged a couple posts on another site with someone who thought going there was 'exotic'.

Reading the entire thread it became apparent that the majority of contributors flew into the city closest to the point of departure, arranged for private transportation airport - hotel, (where the rest of them were staying), and then they all went en masse to the ship.

No thank you.
I think, I have to admit I don’t have the stamina to be a hummingbird traveler anymore. Actually, I don’t think I had it before either, but less more so now.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:40 AM   #52
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As an example of what I was alluding to earlier, when we announced we were visiting Bulgaria prior to catching a ship for a transatlantic cruise, I exchanged a couple posts on another site with someone who thought going there was 'exotic'.

Reading the entire thread it became apparent that the majority of contributors flew into the city closest to the point of departure, arranged for private transportation airport - hotel, (where the rest of them were staying), and then they all went en masse to the ship.

No thank you.
Some people take the cruise as the main point of their trip. You and I think of the cruise as transportation, or just a place for a leisurely rest. Cruising is not really "travel" to me.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:44 AM   #53
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Some people take the cruise as the main point of their trip. You and I think of the cruise as transportation, or just a place for a leisurely rest. Cruising is not really "travel" to me.
Com’on, you are going to get a lot of flak for being a snob. Travel snob. The whole point of travelling as with anything is you do what you like. Hey it’s your vacation. Some people like cruise, some don’t.
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:02 PM   #54
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I save a little bit of every country that I’ve been to so I have an incentive to go back. I stay mostly to the one side of Switzerland because of convenience. Next time if I do another country within close distance to the other side of Switzerland, then I visit those places you mention.

Even for the UK, which is like my adopted country through marriage, I’ve been there more than 10 times but less than 20 times, I have not visited Stonehenge and York. I might do that next time.
We like going to the UK. We were in London and Brighton in July for a few days on our way to Sweden and then Switzerland. We were in London last year also. As far as large cities go, London is one of the greatest in the world. I was crowded and I can see why it draws so many visitors. The English countryside is really nice also. Driving there took a bit of getting used to our first time, but now it's okay. Scotland is nice too. We haven't been to Stonehenge either but it's not on our priority list either.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:10 AM   #55
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We do all sorts of travel. Cruises, AI's. But mostly independent extended land trips. They are all good. Cannot imagine why anyone would denigrate someone else's choice of travel product. We often combine them-grab a last minute cruise while traveling independently as a bit of a break. DIY travel can involve lots of work. Sometimes it is good simply to sit back and go with the flow.

Next week we will do two weeks of independent travel in the Yukatan. Then a week in an AI (probably Mexico again) after Christmas with daughter and family. Then a month in Thailand and a month in Australia doing independent travel to avoid our winter. Chances are that when we are in Australia we may pick up a last minute cruise for part of the times as we have done in the past.

Whose is to say that the way we travel is better or worse than what someone else does? And why would we even care?
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:19 AM   #56
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I don’t think NW_Bound denigrated it, perhaps he expressed his preference. But what’s AI, I was thinking of Artificial Intelligence. I’m a computer person after all. Lol
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:52 AM   #57
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Yeah, after several intense DIY trips I’m ready to sit back and go with the flow.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:06 AM   #58
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I've driven a bit in Europe, mostly a 10 day trip in Ireland/Scotland. It's stressful to me with narrow roads, different signs, unfamiliar territory, figuring out where to park, and of course driving on the opposite side for that trip. I like the freedom and flexibility of driving, but riding the train was relaxing. Instead of getting places stressed and tired, I'd get there relaxed and ready to go. With the frequency of trains in much of continental Europe it was worth it to me to go on their schedules.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:45 AM   #59
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As an example of what I was alluding to earlier, when we announced we were visiting Bulgaria prior to catching a ship for a transatlantic cruise, I exchanged a couple posts on another site with someone who thought going there was 'exotic'.

Reading the entire thread it became apparent that the majority of contributors flew into the city closest to the point of departure, arranged for private transportation airport - hotel, (where the rest of them were staying), and then they all went en masse to the ship.

No thank you.

You have no idea how old these people are or how difficult it may be for them to travel at all . On our last trip I saw four people with portable oxygen machines several with walkers and one with a seeing eye dog . I give them and their spouse a lot of credit for making any kind of trip .You are lucky that you can still travel your way but not everybody is that lucky .
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:15 PM   #60
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I happened upon this site, (that I'd never visited before), and found that this is apparently not an isolated discussion:

https://www.travellerspoint.com/forum.cfm?thread=113847
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