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Old 03-28-2019, 08:49 AM   #61
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No pants? What do the neighbors say?
They just shrug. It's California, after all.
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Old 03-28-2019, 09:51 AM   #62
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Skip, Placerville is beautiful. Since we are close we always spend a week in our RV in the fall up there. Brewer, can have those places he is thinking about moving too. Hot summers and brutal winters.
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Old 03-28-2019, 09:59 AM   #63
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Skip, Placerville is beautiful. Since we are close we always spend a week in our RV in the fall up there. Brewer, can have those places he is thinking about moving too. Hot summers and brutal winters.
Some of us enjoy the change of seasons. I also have had more than enough ofto being told how to live my life by the morally bankrupt.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:04 AM   #64
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Where both skip and I live we have a mild 4 seasons. I have lived or visited the states you mentioned and the weather is awful. South Dakota and Nebraska are cheap and that’s for a reason.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:09 AM   #65
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... Yes, California has a lot of people, but they are concentrated to mostly two areas; LA and SF. Avoid those and it's pretty much anything you want it to be if you choose wisely...
Indeed, CA is a large state, and I enjoy travel there over the years. Recently, I avoided the crowded population centers, and took the backroads with my motorhome. I saw more things that I did not when doing car trips while still working.

If you do not have to work for a living and need a good paying job, it opens up a lot of choices. But once people get used to the hubbub, they cannot leave it. Anything less, they consider it boring. And it is their personal freedom to do as they wish.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:32 AM   #66
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Confused.

I didn't do a deep dive and tally all the responses but:

Last week we had a thread where the consensus seemed that people were migrating from NY to Florida and Texas not so much because of high taxes but to reach better weather.

This thread seems to lead one to believe that folks are leaving--or will leave-- the good weather of CA because of taxes.

I could be mistaken.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:44 AM   #67
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If it is much ado about nothing, then why implement it? It either raises revenue or it doesn't. If all the smart (TM) people can avoid it, then it isn't an effective revenue mechanism and should be eliminated. If it is a large revenue mechanism, it must have an impact on those the revenue is raised from.
It hasn't been implemented in California - just proposed by one legislator.

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These threads are always interesting. Some of the same people who think it is great of the state to add yet another tax are the same ones doing everything to limit their income to stay eligible for ACA subsidies that are intended for the poor.
"Intended"?

You read the rules. You play by the rules. So it goes.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:48 AM   #68
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Confused.

I didn't do a deep dive and tally all the responses but:

Last week we had a thread where the consensus seemed that people were migrating from NY to Florida and Texas not so much because of high taxes but to reach better weather.

This thread seems to lead one to believe that folks are leaving--or will leave-- the good weather of CA because of taxes.

I could be mistaken.
Better weather is nice, particularly if it saves you in taxes too.

But if better weather costs you too much, some people settle for something a bit less nice, in order to keep some dough in their pocket.

I have always believed that everything "nice" in life costs me money. And so, I always ask myself what the hidden costs are, and whether I want to pay it.
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Old 03-28-2019, 11:44 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by marko View Post
Confused.

I didn't do a deep dive and tally all the responses but:

Last week we had a thread where the consensus seemed that people were migrating from NY to Florida and Texas not so much because of high taxes but to reach better weather.

This thread seems to lead one to believe that folks are leaving--or will leave-- the good weather of CA because of taxes.

I could be mistaken.
For most that I know that left or are leaving, weather is the #2 reason on their list, I cannot state reason #1 for fear of bringing on porky.
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Old 03-28-2019, 12:02 PM   #70
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Low income and young people without high levels of education are leaving, the wealthy and better educated are moving in. Most of the people who have left made under $30K.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...htmlstory.html


"Of those who left during the latest years for which statistics exist, the vast majority earned less than $30,000 per year. A net total of 469,000 of those leaving had no college degree. Given the prevailing levels of rents and home prices in California, it’s easy to see their financial motive in leaving for far lower-priced states like Texas, Nevada, Oregon and Arizona. But as lower-income residents left there was a net increase of 52,700 residents from other states making more than $50,000 per year who do have at least a bachelor’s degree"
https://www.davisenterprise.com/foru...who-you-think/
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Old 03-28-2019, 12:03 PM   #71
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I live in Minnesota. We have brutal winters and relatively high taxes. I like it here. I feel like my state does a better job than most of making sure that we get decent value for our tax dollars. My kids go to a great school, my neighborhood is very safe with friendly people, and there are a whole bunch of people who work really hard at all hours to keep the roads clear and functional for me in a state where mother nature doesn't want them to exist for very long.


Plus the winters keep the riff-raff out.



We actually have an estate tax that kicks in at only $1 million. I think that's a lower exemption than makes sense, but it isn't something I'm losing sleep over. I think the rate is like 10%. So assuming I leave an estate of $3 million, that will reduce it to $2.8 million. I'm pretty sure that regardless of the size of my estate, I'm still going to be dead.


I might snowbird a little in retirement to avoid January and February in Minnesota, but I don't see myself moving anywhere else beyond that.
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Old 03-28-2019, 12:54 PM   #72
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Low income and young people without high levels of education are leaving, the wealthy and better educated are moving in. Most of the people who have left made under $30K.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...htmlstory.html

"Of those who left during the latest years for which statistics exist, the vast majority earned less than $30,000 per year. A net total of 469,000 of those leaving had no college degree. Given the prevailing levels of rents and home prices in California, it’s easy to see their financial motive in leaving for far lower-priced states like Texas, Nevada, Oregon and Arizona. But as lower-income residents left there was a net increase of 52,700 residents from other states making more than $50,000 per year who do have at least a bachelor’s degree"
https://www.davisenterprise.com/foru...who-you-think/
If they wait long enough, perhaps the wealth disparity and housing shortage problems will take care of themselves, when everybody is rich? Or the few people left who provide services to the rich people will be in demand, and can command high enough wages to be not so far behind the people they serve?

Either way, when there are more rich people and less poor people, the new tax will not have to be draconian to work as intended for wealth redistribution. That's the silver lining with the migration pattern of rich-in-poor-out, I guess.


PS. Or will the wealth redistribution program reverse the flow, and bring back more poor people? As I said, it's interesting to see how things will work.
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Old 03-28-2019, 12:55 PM   #73
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It hasn't been implemented in California - just proposed by one legislator.
I am well aware it is just a proposal from one legislator. This discussion has been on whether it is a good or bad idea.

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"Intended"?

You read the rules. You play by the rules. So it goes.
And that is indeed why Brewer calls them the morally bankrupt. Talk the talk about how more and more and more taxes are needed to help pay for endless programs, regardless of what does to the long term economic vitality of an area/state/nation. But when it comes to walking the walk, they do everything they can to have it not be them that pays up.

But those days are coming to an end, by the very people they support and the need for never ending new sources of revenue. Instead of just taking income, they will come after accumulated wealth. It will be at first for those edge cases, like the "super" wealthy who have more than $5 million, or a 'transaction tax' to grab some of those windfall profits associated with capital gains, or maybe just a grab at additional taxes on capital gains. That is the easiest to sell, because it only (directly) impacts a small number of voters. But even that isn't enough, because the need to redistribute feeds upon itself. Eventually the measures get more drastic.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:07 PM   #74
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It makes sense that lower income people are leaving. I lived in Wichita,Kansas for a few years and if I was poor would probably go back. The COL is very low for a good size city.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:10 PM   #75
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So maybe such a system is OK in the sense that seniors get to keep more of their income while they are living with the offset that some of it is taxed upon their death.
This. If I had the choice, I'd rather defer my taxes until after I die. The money I had left at the end is money that I had saved for an economic disaster that didn't occur. Once I'm dead, I don't need that money any more.

That said, if one state has an unusually high estate tax, that state certainly runs the risk of older, wealthier people leaving just to avoid the tax. That type of risk is much lower for a federal tax.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:19 PM   #76
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No pants? What do the neighbors say?

The wimmen, they scream. And grown men curse.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:20 PM   #77
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Low income and young people without high levels of education are leaving, the wealthy and better educated are moving in. Most of the people who have left made under $30K.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...htmlstory.html


"Of those who left during the latest years for which statistics exist, the vast majority earned less than $30,000 per year. A net total of 469,000 of those leaving had no college degree. Given the prevailing levels of rents and home prices in California, it’s easy to see their financial motive in leaving for far lower-priced states like Texas, Nevada, Oregon and Arizona. But as lower-income residents left there was a net increase of 52,700 residents from other states making more than $50,000 per year who do have at least a bachelor’s degree"
https://www.davisenterprise.com/foru...who-you-think/
If only poor folks are leaving, what accounts for the huge run up in home prices in Denver, Boise, Portland, Bend, Seattle, Reno, Phoenix, and Prescott? All those places are big destinations for former Californians. No one making $30k a year is buying a house in any of those places. Meanwhile, a lot of the inbound migration is from Mexico, Central America, Southeast Asia, India, China, and the Philippines. Some of these people are highly educated and bring wealth with them. The majority, probably not.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:26 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort View Post
Low income and young people without high levels of education are leaving, the wealthy and better educated are moving in. Most of the people who have left made under $30K.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...htmlstory.html


"Of those who left during the latest years for which statistics exist, the vast majority earned less than $30,000 per year. A net total of 469,000 of those leaving had no college degree. Given the prevailing levels of rents and home prices in California, it’s easy to see their financial motive in leaving for far lower-priced states like Texas, Nevada, Oregon and Arizona. But as lower-income residents left there was a net increase of 52,700 residents from other states making more than $50,000 per year who do have at least a bachelor’s degree"
https://www.davisenterprise.com/foru...who-you-think/
My BIL, age mid-60's lives in Santa Clara, CA. He has been in the Silicon Valley for 40 years (ex Connecticut native like me). He was KPMG's top tax accountant for 25+ years and built up a huge client base of very rich people and companies. Those included Central Valley farmers (huge spreads) and SI startup's like Apple, Intel, etc, etc.

At 60, KPMG retires partners and he was the top tax guy, but had to leave. Due to his inability to hang it up, he now works "part time" doing "wealth management" consulting for many of his ex-clients with the biggest part of his practice focusing on assisting those wealthy clients in estate planning, private corporation restructuring, and tax minimization. Much of this focuses on helping move these clients and their potential heirs out of California permanently with the least negative impact on their assets.

He said he has more work than he had when he was at KPMG! Not bad when he can bill at $750/hr to do this stuff.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:27 PM   #79
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OTOH ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.a9e2339e27aa

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A new study published in the journal Social Science Research finds that Americans report greater levels of happiness in states that spend more money on public goods such as parks, libraries, infrastructure and public safety.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:27 PM   #80
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This. If I had the choice, I'd rather defer my taxes until after I die. The money I had left at the end is money that I had saved for an economic disaster that didn't occur. Once I'm dead, I don't need that money any more.

That said, if one state has an unusually high estate tax, that state certainly runs the risk of older, wealthier people leaving just to avoid the tax. That type of risk is much lower for a federal tax.

On the flip side, currently in California children can inherit property from their parents and pay very little tax on property worth millions, even if they just choose to rent out the property. Prop 13 has a lock in effect for older homeowners, so new laws that nudge retirees out of their houses might not be such a bad thing.
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