I must have lived in a different world

[Senator]

Why is it so hard for people to accept that this area of life has actually gotten harder (on average) from when they went through it? Do people really think that all of that increase in college debt in the WSJ link above is going to lattes and craft beer?

It's like the FIRE concept. Everyone says that being retired early is an impossibility these days. Everyone is starving when they retire.

 

[Hamlet]

I worked and attended community college and later state university classes around my job. It took me longer, mainly because I was tired and took time off, but I graduated and went back for an M. A. and graduated with no debt.

The world still needs plumbers and welder and electricians and water/wastewater operators and truck drivers and trash collectors, as well as other skilled workers that I'm not thinking of. Maybe people who get "sold" on college need to pursue other career paths that require other kinds of training that isn't so expensive.


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How much real growth is in those areas though? Going into the trades is a great option, but only for a few. For the most part, of our job growth is coming in low-wage jobs or jobs that require a college degree or other expensive training. The middle class is shrinking, and for most young people the only way they see into it is a college degree.

The demand for college at these higher prices is there for a reason.

 

[Hamlet]

I made no claim that it wasn't more difficult, just pointed out there were other options other than going into debt. I find it far more positive to point out ways we can do things rather than focus on how we can't.

Fair enough. I'm not trying to say the world is ending. I'm just trying to point out that these kids aren't whining for no reason. Or at least they aren't whining for no reason any more than we did when we were their age.

 

[REWahoo]

Or at least they aren't whining for no reason any more than we did when we were their age.

+1

I can distinctly recall doing a lot of whining about Uncle Sam wanting me - and not taking no for an answer, short of me leaving the country.

 

[Hamlet]

+1

I can distinctly recall doing a lot of whining about Uncle Sam wanting me - and not taking no for an answer, short of me leaving the country.

There is something that is vastly better for kids these days. Conscription is most likely something they will never face (fingers crossed) . I'd rather have student loans than be forced into fighting a war.

I got to avoid both. In 20 years their kids will be posting snarky memes about me and I'll have the millennials explaining why those kids think I had it easier than them. Of course, they'll be completely wrong.

 

[samclem]

The demand for college at these higher prices is there for a reason.

Just like with college costs, we should not just accept that "good jobs require a college degree these days" but ask why that is happening. Employers often freely admit that what these college grads have learned in their 4 (or 5, or 6) years of college is not needed to do the job. The large %age of graduates who are hired for jobs outside their majors is testimony to that. But the glut of young twenty-somethings with these degrees makes it very easy for prospective employers to add it to their criteria simply as a screening mechanism. It costs them nothing, and at least they are more likely to get someone who will stick with something for a few years and is at least marginally literate (things that used to be guaranteed with a HS diploma, but no more). Plus, maybe an employee with $80K in student debt will put up with more BS than an employee without that debt load--that makes for a more "compliant" employee.
If we had less easy money for college and fewer people attending/graduating, these employers would be hiring HS graduates instead, and the new employees could maybe get their higher education as they needed it (and after they'd matured a bit). We can be sure if they were spending their own money, they'd look for good values in education. Not so much when you are 18 and spending Daddy's (or Uncle Sam's) money to get the upgraded dorm room, nicer meal plan, and the classes that are the most fun.

Complaining about the high cost of college and about the "need" for people to have a degree to get a good job misses the underlying factors that cause both of these problems. "Turn off the money spigot!"

 

[Hamlet]

me either, except it was 30 years ago

craft beer didn't exist in the 80s, we were lucky to get guiness or harp (and no, Sammy doesn't count as craft beer)

There were a bunch of fancy beers in the 90s. I remember because one of the guys I went to school with got a settlement from a car hitting him, and we figured out that he pretty much spent it all on fancy beer. He would save a bottle from every six pack he bought and put them on a shelf in his room.

We counted them one night and it was a sobering experience, pun intended.

 

[Big_Hitter]

There were a bunch of fancy beers in the 90s.

no doubt - Houston got its first microbrewery in the early 90s

 

[Amethyst]

May I ask why this is important to you? Do you think there is something they are supposed to do about it, if they do understand?

I think all I am trying to accomplish is to make the older generation realize that the start of life for this most recent generation is more difficult financially than it has been for a very long time.

For some reason, this thread is making the lyrics to Genesis's 1986 song, "Land of Confusion," run through my head. Thirty years ago, they sang:

"I won't be coming home tonight,
My generation will put it right,
They're not just making promises
That they know they'll never keep."

That was "my generation," and we (with others' help) did more-or-less solve a problem brought on during earlier generations: the Cold War, which is what the song refers to. Whether that simply created a hole for other problems to rush into, is a matter for another debate!

And the song also has this stanza, of which I'm very fond:

"This is the world we live in,
And these are the hands we're given.
Use them and let's start trying
To make it a place worth living in."

I wish everyone the best of luck in "making it a place worth living in."

Amethyst

 

[DrRoy]

I think that pretty much everything posted in this thread correctly applies to various groups of people.

There are political forces that want the government to have more ability to transfer money from the haves to the have nots.

There are many people who are quite capable of providing for their own retirement and are doing so.

There are some who are capable but handle their money poorly and are not doing so.

There are some who are pretty much spending what they make on living, and do not have the excess income to save. Some of these people could get to a better income through education or finding a better job, but others may just not be capable of that.

It is true that the opportunity to earn a company paid pension is declining as we go forward. The company that I work for capped the pension program in 2007 and the benefit no longer accrues. I will get about 40% of my desired retirement income from it when I tap it next year, but since there is no COLA, after 30 years of typical inflation that will then only be 10%. I will be making up the difference (not counting SS when I am 67-70 if it is still there).

 

[daylatedollarshort]

that's the long-standing thought, in certain circles...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Alger_myth

The U.S. is one of the least upwardly mobile developed countries these days.

"Among the major developed countries, only in Italy and the United Kingdom is there less economic mobility"

America's economic mobility myth - Dec. 9, 2013

I see both sides on the college costs. In general it is much more expensive, that is a measurable fact. On the other hand, community college and in state, public schools in majors with decent job prospects seem to be working out well for our kids so far with a modest cost and good ROI. We've always had them look at free online sources like the Payscale reports by college and major, plus the Job Outlook Handbook. Our local community colleges have reasonable cost, 2 year programs in fields like plumbing and healthcare, so that could have been an option as well.

One of our kids noticed that his entire out of pocket education costs (including 2+ years of room and board in a pricey area) cost less than a single semester at the schools some of his friends attended. Which would still be okay if the families it could easily afford it, the kids were getting grants and/or they were in a high payback major and could pay off the loans easily. But that hasn't always been case.

 

[kgtest]

You might be right. I disagree to some extent, but it doesn't really matter. Regardless of why costs are so high, students today have little choice but to pay them. Corporate America requires a college degree these days, and the alternatives to megacorp are generally paying less.

It's either get the degree or continue working for < $10/hr for many, many people.

I am not a "kid", 32, but I've worked for the DoD, A mega insurance company, a large bank and a few start-ups as well... I started my career in corporate America at a company of 2000 employees with no college degree.

I basically pulled a good will hunting, and nailed my interview with smarts.


The rest is history...

I honestly have no clue what its like to have a student loan, my wife didn't have one either. We are not doing amazingly well or anything so I can imagine those saddled with prime educational loans.

I never understood the notion of needing a college degree to "succeed" or "make it" or fill in the blank. I am probably the exception as I am told often by all my friends saddled with college debt in their 30s.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

I never meant to imply that you could go to the University of your choice, live in dorms and spend $100k and yes I do have two kids who got educated without debt, and nephews who did the same.

One nephew is going on the new GI bill. My son started at community college, chose to live at home and go to the nearby state university, even though he was accepted elsewhere. He will graduate this year with no debt, about 30K was what I saved for his college. He worked through college as his dad required, not because his did could not afford it, but because he wanted his son to learn money management. He has. It was his decision to live at home looking at what he had saved. He is very careful with his money, and figuring how long it will last. Now he already has job opportunities post graduation. My daughter went to college and private schools and is now has a good job in the police force. She worked while going to school and her budget was about the same.

When I was going to school plenty of my friends chose to rent a room from the proverbial old lady with a spare room for rent, or room with friends rather than live in the dorm.

Sometimes it is useful to use some creative thinking rather than rely so heavily on what "we say in networking."

 

[Accidental Retiree]

How much real growth is in those areas though? Going into the trades is a great option, but only for a few. For the most part, of our job growth is coming in low-wage jobs or jobs that require a college degree or other expensive training. The middle class is shrinking, and for most young people the only way they see into it is a college degree.

The demand for college at these higher prices is there for a reason.

If college is the only way they see into the middle class, perhaps someone needs to enlighten them so they look in other areas.

Go to your local sewer district's Human Resources page and take a good look at the posted job descriptions for all the levels of, say, treatment plant operators. There were something like 5 levels last time I worked in that business. Also look at benefits. People build entire long careers cleaning our wastewater and keeping our water infrastructure going, running complicated equipment, and earning great pensions after years of that work. They DO retire, and they DO need someone to replace them.

The districts often offer paid training and many may offer some sort of tuition reimbursement plan; with shift work, they also have flexibility to attend classes for pursuing further education if they choose.

These folks can get started in high school ROP training or with online training. A college degree is not required.

We all want water to drink and we all want our toilets to empty when we flush them. Someone has to make that happen, someone with the right training but not necessarily a college degree.









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[UtahSkier]

College costs have gone up largely due to the huge amount of federal (and federal-backed) student loans which threw a giant amount of cash into the pot. "Free money" will do that to prices (see "home prices" and "medical costs" for other examples). Then, people cite the increasing cost of "education" (which apparently cannot be conducted without lavish gymnasiums/fitness bars, single-occupant dorms, and an ever increasing number of admin staff to augment the folks actually teaching) as requiring >more< government aid. I say "turn off the money spigot" and education costs will decrease. As an added benefit, maybe the curricula will more closely approximate the skills needed to be a productive citizen.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

When the government is the payer, this is no upper limit to the price.
Government subsidizes medical payments and healthcare prices rise.
Government subsidizes housing and housing prices rise.
Government subsidizes college education and college education prices rise.

"Too much money chasing too few goods" is a classic definition of inflation.

 

[Looking4Ward]

College costs have gone up largely due to the huge amount of federal (and federal-backed) student loans which threw a giant amount of cash into the pot. "Free money" will do that to prices (see "home prices" and "medical costs" for other examples). Then, people cite the increasing cost of "education" (which apparently cannot be conducted without lavish gymnasiums/fitness bars, single-occupant dorms, and an ever increasing number of admin staff to augment the folks actually teaching) as requiring >more< government aid. I say "turn off the money spigot" and education costs will decrease. As an added benefit, maybe the curricula will more closely approximate the skills needed to be a productive citizen.

I completely agree that tuition costs have been encouraged to rise because of the increased flow and availability of student loans.

Several of my front line staff were college students and would brag to others that the only reason they worked was for beer and gas money because they were able to live on their student loans. I was surprised to learn that student loans didn't have to be spent strictly on tuition and books.

 

[Rustic23]

I disagree with the statement that the current generation has it harder. However, I completely agree with the statement 'that they think they do'.

Each senior generation thinks the younger generation is going to hell in a hand basket! While each younger generation thinks, well if I had it as easy as you.

If I think about the generations that came before me, pioneers, labor workers before labor reform, graduates in war years, (starting with the spats between cave men) and the list goes on.

Having gone through kids, and now grand kids in college, one thing come through loud and clear. They have more toys, and believe they should live just like their parents. i.e. DD was horrified when we suggested she could use a brick and board bookcase in her college apartment.

We live close to a college town. When we are there it is amazing to see the number of college age kids at restaurants. A friend of mine commented, 'I don't remember being able to eat out when I went to college" I think I ate out less than a dozen time in the four years I was at college, and living off campus was virtually for married students only.

 

[Hamlet]

I never meant to imply that you could go to the University of your choice, live in dorms and spend $100k and yes I do have two kids who got educated without debt, and a nephews who did the same.

One nephew is going on the new GI bill. My son stated at community college, chose to live at home and go to the nearby state university, even though he was accepted elsewhere. He will graduate this year with no debt, about 30K was what I saved for his college. He worked through college as his dad required, not because his did could not afford it, but because he wanted his son to learn money management. He has. It was his decision to live at home looking at what he had saved. He is very careful with his money, and figuring how long it will last. Now he already has job opportunities post graduation. My daughter went to college and private schools and is now has a good job in the police force. She worked while going to school and her budget was about the same.

When I was going to school plenty of my friends chose to rent a room from the proverbial old lady with a spare room for rent, or room with friends rather than live in the dorm.

Sometimes it is useful to use some creative thinking rather than rely so heavily on what "we say in networking."

Sorry about the snarky comment. They've correctly deleted it.

Yes, smart kids living at home with helpful parents with 30k to give them are able to graduate without debt these days, if they go to community college and transfer to save money.

My point is that 25 years ago, I was able to do it while living away from home, going to a very good state school the whole time, with only about 3k/year in financial help from my family.

25 years ago, even if your parents gave you luggage and a bus ticket for your 18th birthday (many did and do), tuition wasn't a massive barrier to getting a degree.

Today it is, unless they are willing to pile up the debt.

 

[aja8888]

A friend of mine's daughter graduates from Sam Houston State in 3.5 years. She applied for just about every scholarship she could think of, lived at home and worked part time. She had money left over in her school account when she graduated. She got a job upon graduation as a school teacher in her home town.

Our granddaughter did basically the same thing. SHSU and graduates this summer with no debt. She held a couple of part time jobs and made about $5K each year. With the grants and her scrounging, she will get her degree and be debt free.

 

[MBAustin]

Just a friendly reminder that we try to keep ER.org a politics-free zone for the good of all:

Partisan political commentary is not allowed in any section of the forum. Discussions about current or pending legislation or regulations that directly pertain to Early Retirement are acceptable but may be closed or removed if they wander off topic or become disruptive.

(Quote from the Community Rules, which are available at the bottom of each page, emphasis added.)

 

[Car-Guy]

I never understood the notion of needing a college degree to "succeed" or "make it" or fill in the blank. I am probably the exception as I am told often by all my friends saddled with college debt in their 30s.

You are not an exception. In my experience, a college degree with a high GPA "may" help you get your foot in the door at some mega corps, but after that, it's what you can actually contribute. Often, many companies will hire people with special work/industry experience and no degree. Once in the company, I've seen many folks without a degree compete very well.

 

[Big_Hitter]

I never understood the notion of needing a college degree to "succeed" or "make it" or fill in the blank. I am probably the exception as I am told often by all my friends saddled with college debt in their 30s.

"man...if I just had that chemical engineering degree...."

almost every employer that requires a degree does so to separate the wheat from the chaff right off the bat - then you're on your own

 

[Rustic23]

I had an HR rep tell me once, half serious and half joking:

The reason we require a college degree is that have proven they have the self discipline to make an 8:00 class. Everything else we can teach them.

 

[imoldernu]

Thank you, President Roosevelt... SS began the year I was born... I began participation in 1950 or 1951, and my last contribution was in 1990. First check received in 1998.

A different time. A different world. Traded pension for money to start my own business in 1986. A good time for interest rates.

So now, with SS as a base, and a reasonable guaranteed income from 2000-2003 Ibonds, back when one could invest 60K/person/year, we continue a "frugal" happy life...

Rich... not in dollars, but in feeling safe and worry-free, and grateful for having lived in the "best of times".

 

[Gumby]

Some posters have attributed the problem to the fact that 401k's are not available to everyone and that their contribution limits are too low. That seems to be a reasonable complaint about these plans, but I have to ask -- why does that stop someone from saving money? I saved money before I ever had a 401k, and in the years when I finally did have a 401k and maxed it out, I saved substantially on an after tax basis. I never had a 401k match, so every dollar I have is a result of me first saving it and then investing it.

It seems to me more likely that the real barrier to saving is that wages have been flat in real terms for the last 30-40 years. All the productivity gains in the economy went to capital rather than labor. At the same time, expectations for living standards (including education) have increased.