Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Judge in VA strikes down federal health care law
Old 12-13-2010, 05:32 PM   #1
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,204
Judge in VA strikes down federal health care law

We all knew this would be contested, but I never would have guessed a Federal judge would actually strike it down! I assume they all believe it won't be the end game, it's far from over...
Quote:
RICHMOND, Va. — A federal judge declared the foundation of President Barack Obama's health care law unconstitutional Monday, ruling that the government cannot require Americans to purchase insurance. The case is expected to end up at the Supreme Court.
Judge in Va. strikes down federal health care law | General Headlines | Comcast.net
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-13-2010, 06:14 PM   #2
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
mickeyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Texas~29N/98W Just West of Woman Hollering Creek
Posts: 6,671
in fear of being banished by the mods, I make no verbal statement.
__________________
Part-Owner of Texas

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

In dire need of: faster horses, younger woman, older whiskey, more money.
mickeyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 06:15 PM   #3
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
We all knew this would be contested, but I never would have guessed a Federal judge would actually strike it down! I assume they all believe it won't be the end game, it's far from over...

Judge in Va. strikes down federal health care law | General Headlines | Comcast.net
There are so many lawsuits against the law, and the case they make is far from weak, that a few are bound to be successful. It's a foregone conclusion that this will go to the SCOTUS.

The CATO institute is unhappy with the VA ruling--because it didn't go far enough in their view.
Quote:
This ruling’s shortcoming is that it did not overturn the entire law. Anyone familiar with ObamaCare knows that Congress would not have approved any of its major provisions absent the individual mandate. The compulsion contained in the individual mandate was the main reason that most Democrats voted in favor of the law. Yet the law still passed Congress by the narrowest of all margins — by one vote, in the dead of night, on Christmas Eve — and required Herculean legislative maneuvering to overcome nine months of solid public opposition. The fact that Congress did not provide for a “severability clause” indicates that lawmakers viewed the law as one measure.
The law is being challenged on other grounds, too. The thing that makes it so appealing to some (its sweeping nature and unprecedented mandates) is the thing that is causing the constitutional problems.

We'll see.
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 06:22 PM   #4
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,130
Hmmm...Why do I need to have car insurance?
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 06:23 PM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
mickeyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Texas~29N/98W Just West of Woman Hollering Creek
Posts: 6,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
Hmmm...Why do I need to have car insurance?

It's a priviledge to be able to drive on gumment owned streets.
__________________
Part-Owner of Texas

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

In dire need of: faster horses, younger woman, older whiskey, more money.
mickeyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 06:27 PM   #6
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
Hmmm...Why do I need to have car insurance?
Due to state (not federal) laws that make insurance coverage (or bond) mandatory before you exercise the privilege (not the right) to drive your car on public (no impact on private) roads. There's zero applicability to the health care insurance situation, where people are being compelled to purchase something just because they are alive--not to exercise a privilege.
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 06:28 PM   #7
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
There are so many lawsuits against the law, and the case they make is far from weak, that a few are bound to be successful. It's a foregone conclusion that this will go to the SCOTUS.

It's interesting that the law does not include a severability provision, so, technically (according to what I've read), if any of it is found unconstitutional, then the whole thing is thrown out. Some people involved with the drafting of the law claim this was an oversight, others note tyhat there's no way it would have garnered the necessary votes if sucha clause had been included. Some of thse who supported the law felt so strongly about the individual mandate that they would not have voted for the law if this provision was subject to being individually stripped out by the SCOTUS.

The law is being challenged on other grounds, too. The thing that makes it so appealing to some (it's sweeping nature) is the thing that is casing the constitutional problems.

We'll see.
Yes, several judges have also found no problem. Of something like 20 cases, 12 were dismissed. In two cases, federal judges upheld the law.

The law really should not be severable. If the requirement to buy insurance is removed then the rest is a big mess. Practically, you can't require insurers to ignore preexisting conditions unless you also require people to buy insurance.
__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 06:42 PM   #8
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha View Post
The law really should not be severable. If the requirement to buy insurance is removed then the rest is a big mess. Practically, you can't require insurers to ignore preexisting conditions unless you also require people to buy insurance.
Would backers of the present law really prefer that the whole thing be thrown out if the individual mandate is found unconstitutional? Couldn't they accept "universal access," with strong programs in place to encourage people to be covered, and with all the subsidies still in place from the present law? The "teeth" (to protect the solvency of the whole program): After the start of the program, anyone having lapsed insurance would remain uncovered for a fairly long exclusionary period (3 years?) after applying for coverage (unless the person is found to be mentally incompetent, etc). Yes, it would be very bad for some individuals, but (as proponents would surely point out) it would be no worse than the situation right now for many folks.

Maybe there could be "sanctions" short of the presently envisioned fines to get people to comply. For example: Student loans aren't a "right", and the government is crowding out the private lenders, so getting a govt student loan is more important to many students than in the past. If you don't have insurance, no loan ("We want you to pay back this loan, which won't be possible if you are dead. Get medical insurance.") Public assistance isn't a right guaranteed in the Constitution, and health insurance would be free for the indigent under the current law. So, sign up for insurance or no food stamps, Section 8 housing vouchers, cash assistance, etc.

Should failure to carry medical insurance affect one's credit rating? I'd sure think it should. I won't pay off my credit card debt if bankrupted by medical payments, or killed by an untreated disease. That knock to the credit score (and all it entails) might induce a lot of people not to go bare.

Though I'd much prefer to just start over on this whole effort, I would think many who favor the current legislation would prefer a "work around" to allow the law to stand even without the individual mandate.
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 06:51 PM   #9
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 141
For those who say it is not constitutional for the federal government to require an individual to obtain healthcare insurance, I have a question.

Is it then also not constitutional to require a hospital to accept an injured person to ER if they cannot provide payment? (I am actually not sure if they are required to provided emergency treatment, but I am at least under the impression they are). How can the federal government require a hospital to do this? Is it in the constitution? Why has it not been challenged in court?

It would be a pity if we got to the point where you had to provide proof of insurance or a valid credit card before the ambulance team would pick you up.
79protons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 06:51 PM   #10
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
FIRE'd@51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha View Post
If the requirement to buy insurance is removed then the rest is a big mess. Practically, you can't require insurers to ignore preexisting conditions unless you also require people to buy insurance.
I agree. The only way to achieve anything approaching universal coverage at a reasonable cost is to have everyone in the system. If the Supreme Court upholds the lower court ruling, this will require either collecting the premiums through taxation and providing the insurance to everyone, along the lines of the Wyden plan; or taking the approach that everyone is given a window of opportunity to buy in with providers having the right to deny treatment to those who choose not to buy in unless they can pay for it out of their own pockets. Otherwise people will game the system.
__________________
I'd rather be governed by the first one hundred names in the telephone book than the Harvard faculty - William F. Buckley
FIRE'd@51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 07:15 PM   #11
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79protons View Post
Is it then also not constitutional to require a hospital to accept an injured person to ER if they cannot provide payment? (I am actually not sure if they are required to provided emergency treatment, but I am at least under the impression they are). How can the federal government require a hospital to do this?
In 1986, Congress passed the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1395dd. It requires ERs to screen individuals and to stabilize them (not necessarily to fully treat them) regardless of their ability to pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 79protons View Post
Is it in the constitution? Why has it not been challenged in court?
I'm sure it has been challenged in court, but you could look up the cases by Googling the law's name.
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 07:21 PM   #12
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
In 1986, Congress passed the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1395dd. It requires ERs to screen individuals and to stabilize them (not necessarily to fully treat them) regardless of their ability to pay.


I'm sure it has been challenged in court, but you could look up the cases by Googling the law's name.
Hmm, so someone in Virginia should bring this particular Act up to the judge and ask him to rule against it. When he refuses, they should ask him how can he uphold this which is not in the constitution while striking down the requirement for healthcare insurance. I know the world doesn't work this way and nobody would actually bring this case before the judge, but it does show how unequally the law is applied.
79protons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 07:32 PM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79protons View Post
Hmm, so someone in Virginia should bring this particular Act up to the judge and ask him to rule against it. When he refuses, they should ask him how can he uphold this which is not in the constitution while striking down the requirement for healthcare insurance. I know the world doesn't work this way and nobody would actually bring this case before the judge, but it does show how unequally the law is applied.
I'm not quite following your point. Judge Hudson ruled that Congress does not have the authority to compel individuals to engage in private commerce. The law you are referring to is very different, because it mandates that institutions (e.g. hospitals) cannot deny treatment. Now, while I also see this as being a problem (as it constitutes a "taking" of private assets without compensation), I don't see it as nearly the constitutional problem that the individual mandate in the health care law poses.

Here's a portion of Judge Hudson's ruling, the whole thing is 80+ pages:
Quote:
Because an individual's personal decision to purchase—or decline to purchase—health insurance from a private provider is beyond the historical reach of the Commerce Clause, the Necessary and Proper Clause does not provide a safe sanctuary. This clause grants Congress broad authority to pass laws in furtherance of its constitutionally enumerated powers. This authority may only be constitutionally deployed when tethered to a lawful exercise of an enumerated power. . . . The Minimum Essential Coverage Provision is neither within the letter nor the spirit of the Constitution. Therefore, the Necessary and Proper Clause may not be employed to implement this affirmative duty to engage in private commerce.
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 07:40 PM   #14
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79protons View Post
For those who say it is not constitutional for the federal government to require an individual to obtain healthcare insurance, I have a question.
You are linking two unrelated entities and issues.
The above is an individual being required to buy something just for being a citizen.


The one below is a business in the health care field that is taking money from the Federal Gov't via Medicare/Medicade and other programs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 79protons View Post
Is it then also not constitutional to require a hospital to accept an injured person to ER if they cannot provide payment? (I am actually not sure if they are required to provided emergency treatment, but I am at least under the impression they are). How can the federal government require a hospital to do this? Is it in the constitution? Why has it not been challenged in court?

It would be a pity if we got to the point where you had to provide proof of insurance or a valid credit card before the ambulance team would pick you up.
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 07:44 PM   #15
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 141
Yeah, you are right actually. The judge approached it from the point that they did not have the grounds to require the purchase of medical insurance based on the interstate commerce laws.

Well, this is all very simply solved, constitutionally. Tax everyone a certain amount extra over current income tax rates and then have a special tax credit for purchasing healthcare insurance. Same effect, but now everyone is happy because the government is not forcing you to buy healthcare insurance. The IRS is especially happy because more work for them equals more job security. A win win.
79protons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 07:55 PM   #16
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79protons View Post
Well, this is all very simply solved, constitutionally. Tax everyone a certain amount extra over current income tax rates and then have a special tax credit for purchasing healthcare insurance.
I don't think that would pass muster, either, as it's not too much different from the way the law, as written, would actually function. The law provides for a penalty tax for those who don't buy insurance. I don't know if penalizing everyone and then giving a credit to those who behave according to the dictates of Congress would be seen as materially different, especially if everything were enacted so close together. Plus, as a practical matter, it would require a re-write of the law, and it's unlikely anything like the present law could get through the 112th Congress that will soon be in session.
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 08:01 PM   #17
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
I don't think that would pass muster, either, as it's not too much different from the way the law, as written, would actually function. The law provides for a penalty tax for those who don't buy insurance. I don't know if penalizing everyone and then giving a credit to those who behave according to the dictates of Congress would be seen as materially different, especially if everything were enacted so close together. Plus, as a practical matter, it would require a re-write of the law, and it's unlikely anything like the present law could get through the 112th Congress that will soon be in session.
Well crapola. I was really looking foward to having others pay my healthcare costs in ER through heavy subsidies for purchasing insurance, especially in the years when we withdraw from our Roth or interest from our municipal bonds. I also thought getting rid of pre-existing conditions denials would help us too. Having to pay $20,000/year for medical coverage will make it impossible to ER on a lean portfolio, even if you are frugal elsewhere.
79protons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 08:02 PM   #18
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeyd View Post
in fear of being banished by the mods, I make no verbal statement.

in fear of being banished by the mods, I make no verbal statement.
...............................
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 08:06 PM   #19
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79protons View Post
Well, this is all very simply solved, constitutionally. Tax everyone a certain amount extra over current income tax rates and then have a special tax credit for purchasing healthcare insurance. Same effect...
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
I don't think that would pass muster, either, as it's not too much different from the way the law, as written, would actually function. The law provides for a penalty tax for those who don't buy insurance. I don't know if penalizing everyone and then giving a credit to those who behave according to the dictates of Congress would be seen as materially different, especially if everything were enacted so close together.
I understand both views, and it's tough for me to guess where the law may come down.


Quote:
Plus, as a practical matter, it would require a re-write of the law, and it's unlikely anything like the present law could get through the 112th Congress that will soon be in session.
Yes, that is a pickle for the supporters of the bill. Quite a pickle indeed.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 08:23 PM   #20
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
....psst- careful, I think the pig is looking in the window.
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Flash- A Sane Person Comments On Federal Health Care haha Health and Early Retirement 11 08-25-2010 07:22 PM
The New Health Care Law, Health Ins & 'New Plans' dex FIRE and Money 14 06-28-2010 06:36 AM
Preventative Care Mandate and New Law oliverdickens Health and Early Retirement 11 03-25-2010 01:36 PM
Memory Care for Father-in-Law 2B Health and Early Retirement 6 01-27-2008 05:26 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:04 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.