No, You Can't Keep Your Health Plan

And we have a new memember... who is going to be a doc and his wife a doc (sorry, not trying to jump on you... just using you as an example)... and he said they will start at about $250K to $300K each (on average)... I am not trying to get into a debate on how long it took to get his education etc. etc.... but just pointing out that docs in other countries when we want to 'be like' pay less than half... and probably less than 25%...
It would also be instructive to see what docs in other countries pay for malpractice insurance and student loans. And the incomes of the docs should be compared with the median income of their own country, not to U.S. doctors in U.S. dollars.
 
Hmmm... here is a link for the UK...

PayScale - Doctors' Salaries in UK, Average Salaries

A general practice make on average 38,293 pounds (* 1.43 right now is $54,759)

Vs ours at $204,000

Salary Information for Physician Jobs

Not sure if I got it right... but Canada looks like a range of 83K to 150K Canadian.. so say the middle is 115K



Now... here is an article that says... it will not make much of a difference anyhow... but that docs will probably be paid less anyhow...

Do American doctors get paid too much? - By Christopher Beam - Slate Magazine
 
Hmmm... here is a link for the UK...

PayScale - Doctors' Salaries in UK, Average Salaries

A general practice make on average 38,293 pounds (* 1.43 right now is $54,759)
Medical school tuition in the UK is also capped at 3,250 UKP ($4,648) per year. So presumably part of the reason NHS can pay a lot less is because they have highly subsidized the UK doctor's education. Granted, that alone doesn't close the wide gap completely, but it likely is a factor.
 
Medical school tuition in the UK is also capped at 3,250 UKP ($4,648) per year. So presumably part of the reason NHS can pay a lot less is because they have highly subsidized the UK doctor's education. Granted, that alone doesn't close the wide gap completely, but it likely is a factor.


Yes... but if we want to be like 'them'... should we not be more like them in more than just having a single payor system:confused:

This is my problem with the call to just go single payor... because it does not address the real costs..

And if the gvmt says this is the max we will pay for X... and then your local hospital goes under because they can not survive no that amount... and now you have to drive 100 to 200 miles to get healthcare... who do you blame:confused:

I for one do not know the answer... but I know that some of the simple responses do not forsee what changes will take place if their suggestion is implemented...
 
This one says the median income of a physician in family practice is $137,000, not $204,000.

I just grabbed one of the first sites I got when I looked them up... I have no idea how accurate they are... and what is included in the number... that is why I think it would be interesting to see someone who actually did the research...
 
The cost of medical school and starting a practice, etc., are all irrelevant in regard to what doc's "should" be paid. They should be paid what a competitive, transparent market will bear. Unfortunately, price competition is not a significant factor in the US today for medical services. A real problem.........

I'd gladly see my taxes raised to provide full schlorships to medical school for all medical students who meet stringent standards. Couple this with low interest govt loans to help new docs (especially family practice types) start/join practices post graduation and I bet you'll see physician compensation levels decrease while supply is increasing.

I feel the same way about nursing and medical technician vocations as well. Send 'em to school on taxpayers' dimes and make entry into the field easy from a financial perspective. Keep academic requirements tough, of course.
 
It's clear that this promise cannot be kept. Insurers and physicians are already reshaping their businesses

This has been going on for a long time. A number of doctors in my area have stopped taking Medicare patients over the past 15 years or so. (Maybe earlier, but I first noticed the little 'No new Medicare patients' signs around 1995.) Most Medicare care here goes through HMOs that are in other federal programs, and so must take Medicare patients.

This dropping of certain providers is not limited to Medicare. Several years ago, United Healthcare cut reimbursements significantly (while paying out some 1.5 BILLION to a departing CEO!), leading to about half the doctors here dropping UHC as accepted insurance, and the only lab service in the region, Quest Diagnostics, dropping UHC and demanding cash in advance. So, you could keep your UHC insurance if you liked it, and just pay out of pocket for doctors and lab work. Of course, you might not like your UHC coverage so much after paying enough in 'out of network' expenses...
 
I'd gladly see my taxes raised to provide full schlorships to medical school for all medical students who meet stringent standards. Couple this with low interest govt loans to help new docs (especially family practice types) start/join practices post graduation and I bet you'll see physician compensation levels decrease while supply is increasing.

I feel the same way about nursing and medical technician vocations as well. Send 'em to school on taxpayers' dimes and make entry into the field easy from a financial perspective. Keep academic requirements tough, of course.
Except that, as we've seen, when government makes cheap money available for school, it drives tuition prices through the roof. I don't know if we need flocks of "Jimmy's Doctor School" storefronts opening up to take advantage of a flood of federal money. Federal involvement to date is one of the primary reasons we don't have more doctors--there's an interesting story/scandal of how the AMA has worked with Congress to cap the number of medical residencies available. This serves as an effective cap on the supplies of new doctors, which keeps their wages high (the AMA's intent all along).

With government help of the appropriate kind (e.g. to promote price transparency and an efficient marketplace in medical services and insurance) the market will do a fine job of producing good doctors, and the right kind of doctors, far better than any governemnt program--just like the market does it for every other occupation/profession/calling.
 
I think the uproar is the same.

But when the "middle men" such as GS and Insurance companies make outsized profits when they don't actually produce anything - that's a bit different than Oil and Pharma which actually do produce a tangible product, not just shuffle money around and take their cut.

Audrey
And then, our gummint is also another middleman who takes a cut in everything.

And there's more. Our American megacorps are full of middlemen who push papers, regulate, monitor, or supervise, rather than actually produce the goods or services. We are surrounded by middlemen, who make more money than people who actually produce.

We are doomed, I tell you, we are doomed!
 
Except that, as we've seen, when government makes cheap money available for school, it drives tuition prices through the roof. I don't know if we need flocks of "Jimmy's Doctor School" storefronts opening up to take advantage of a flood of federal money. Federal involvement to date is one of the primary reasons we don't have more doctors--there's an interesting story/scandal of how the AMA has worked with Congress to cap the number of medical residencies available. This serves as an effective cap on the supplies of new doctors, which keeps their wages high (the AMA's intent all along).

With government help of the appropriate kind (e.g. to promote price transparency and an efficient marketplace in medical services and insurance) the market will do a fine job of producing good doctors, and the right kind of doctors, far better than any governemnt program--just like the market does it for every other occupation/profession/calling.

Many good points samclem. But, my point in mentioning "stringent standards" was to focus on a program that would allow topnotch medical students to attend existing, expensive programs that they might not have been able to justify financially otherwise....... not to create a abundance of new "storefront" medical schools in every strip mall from here to Omaha catering to the not-so-qualified. I think there are already bountiful numbers of offshore institutions taking care of that.........

I understand that gov't programs struggle to accomplish intended goals and avoid unintended consequences. Still, it's frustrating to envision a shortage of medical personnel when the cost of training seems cheap in light of the benefits gained.
 
Here's another piece on the disappearance of employer-sponsored health plans.

From the article (emphasis added):
. . . employers are quickly discovering that it may be cheaper to pay fines to the government than to insure workers.


AT&T, Caterpillar, John Deere and Verizon have all made internal calculations, according the House Energy and Commerce Committee, to determine how much could be saved by a) dropping their employer-provided insurance, b) paying a fine of $2,000 per employee, and c) leaving their employees with the option of buying highly-subsidized insurance in the newly created health-insurance exchange.

. . .But considering that [workers] will be required by federal law to buy their own insurance in an exchange, will they be net winners or losers? That depends on their incomes.A Congressional Budget Office (CBO) analysis of the House version of ObamaCare, which is close to what actually passed in March, assumed a $15,000 premium for family coverage in 2016. Yet the only subsidy available for employer-provided coverage is the same one as under current law: the ability to pay with pretax dollars. For a $30,000-a-year worker paying no federal income tax, the only tax subsidy is the payroll tax avoided on the employer's premiums. That subsidy is only worth about $2,811 a year.
If this same worker goes to the health-insurance exchange, however, the federal government will pay almost all the premiums, plus reimburse the employee for most out-of-pocket costs. All told, the CBO estimates the total subsidy would be about $19,400—almost $17,000 more than the subsidy for employer-provided insurance.


.
But will the insurance in the exchange be as good? In Massachusetts, people who get subsidized insurance from an exchange are in health plans that pay providers Medicaid rates plus 10%. That's less than what Medicare pays, and a lot less than the rates paid by private plans. Since the state did nothing to expand the number of doctors as it cut its uninsured rate in half, people in plans with low reimbursement rates are being pushed to the rear of the waiting lines.
The Massachusetts experience will only be amplified in other parts of the country. The CBO estimates there will be 32 million newly insured under ObamaCare. Studies by think tanks like Rand and the Urban Institute show that insured people consume twice as much health care as the uninsured. So all other things being equal, 32 million people will suddenly be doubling their use of health-care resources. In a state such as Texas, where one out of every four working age adults is currently uninsured, the rationing problem will be monumental.


Even if health plans in the exchange are identical to health plans at work, the subsidies available can only be described as bizarre. In general, the more you make, the greater the subsidy at work and the lower the subsidy in the exchange. People earning more than $100,000 get no subsidy in the exchange. . . . That implies that the best way to maximize employee subsidies is to completely reorganize the economic structure of firms.
Take a hotel with maids, waitresses, busboys and custodians all earning $10 or $15 an hour. These employees can qualify for completely free Medicaid coverage or highly subsidized insurance in the exchange.
So the ideal arrangement is for the hotel to fire the lower-paid employees—simply cutting their plans is not an option since federal law requires nondiscrimination in offering health benefits—and contract for their labor from firms that employ them but pay fines instead of providing health insurance. The hotel could then provide health insurance for all the remaining, higher-paid employees.
Ultimately, we could see a complete restructuring of American industry, with firms dissolving and emerging based on government subsidies.

I sure hope the CBO already accounted for the magnitude of all these extra subsidy costs in their estimates.
 
How do you define "outsized"? I find it interesting that the doctors on this forum are staying out of this discussion. Maybe the ones still working will have something to say when they get a 50% paycut, courtesy of the govt setting maximum rates on what doctors can charge........:nonono:

FD they already do set reimbursement rates for medicare/medicaid and many insurance companies factor those numbers in when determining their reimbursement rates. We are set for a further 21.2% drop in Medicare reimbursement June 1st unless they once again delay implementation. To add insult to injury that will be applied to a rate that is already less then what we were paid in 1998 Powered by Google Docs. Ever wondered why you only get to see your doctor for 5 minutes or less for a visit? That's why. Given the current climate I would expect the private insurance companies will leap on the Medicare reduction to cut their reimbursement rates as well. This all predates the health care reform bill.

The entire system is broken - including physician compensation. Some of us are paid more than necessary for doing things that may not be of maximal benefit to society and others are paid too little thus forcing us to recruit foreign medical graduates to fill more than half of our primary care residency slots AMA-IMG Section Position Paper Discusses Role of IMGs in Primary Care -- AAFP News Now -- American Academy of Family Physicians.

DD
 
I realise that the picture is so large I can't see the forest for the trees when it comes to the health care issue.
With that said, when I look at recent bills from using my insurance. If I could get the contractual prices negotiated by big blue and cut out my premium I wouldn't need insurance at all. Just pay the bill and move on. But of course there's the fear of the huge life saving hospital stay that keeps us glued to our coverage. All based on fear I tell you, fear !!!
That's how they got us by the short hairs.
Its a no win situation,
Steve

PS. Can't blame a guy for dreaming of pie in the sky though :whistle:
 
I realise that the picture is so large I can't see the forest for the trees when it comes to the health care issue.
With that said, when I look at recent bills from using my insurance. If I could get the contractual prices negotiated by big blue and cut out my premium I wouldn't need insurance at all. Just pay the bill and move on. But of course there's the fear of the huge life saving hospital stay that keeps us glued to our coverage. All based on fear I tell you, fear !!!
That's how they got us by the short hairs.
Its a no win situation,
Steve

PS. Can't blame a guy for dreaming of pie in the sky though :whistle:

Or the chronic disease that costs an arm and a leg. I just wrote a HIPAA policy on a guy whose wife has MS and her prescription is about $3,500 a month that she will be taking for the rest of her life. That'll change your ER plans a bit if you pay out of pocket...
 
I don't know the answer. But I do know that when I went to the dentist a couple of weeks ago, the entire time I was sitting in the reception area, the lady at the desk was on the phone, calling clients to tell them that their insurance claim didn't work because their insurance company didn't recognize their number, etc, etc. It was ALL about insurance. So there is at least one full-time job at a very small practice, spending 90% of her time dealing with insurance screwups.
And for awhile there between quitting my job and getting health insurance through retirement, I was unable to get private health insurance due to being middle aged and doing a bad job picking my ancestors, despite applying to everyone (oh yeah, once company would take me if they excluded all preexisting conditions and "any tumor"). And I'm HEALTHY (knock on wood).
About medicare - For years now, you couldn't get a private GP doc to take you in this town if you're on Medicare, but the clinics would and still will take you. Something about clinics being paid more per patient than individual doctors. I haven't found the information online - anybody know how that works?
 
I don't know the answer. But I do know that when I went to the dentist a couple of weeks ago, the entire time I was sitting in the reception area, the lady at the desk was on the phone, calling clients to tell them that their insurance claim didn't work because their insurance company didn't recognize their number, etc, etc. It was ALL about insurance. So there is at least one full-time job at a very small practice, spending 90% of her time dealing with insurance screwups.

Yup. We recently dropped the individual dental insurance option from our individual/family coverage, because while the checks cleared every month, the insurer denied that we were covered when the dental office called. Oh, the 'customer service' person would say we were covered when WE called, and would offer to do things like 'push the database' to make sure the claims side knew we were covered, but somehow, that just never seemed to work. I even sat there with the insurance person at the dental office as she tried to put a claim through, and talked to the claims person. No luck.

It's a sweet business model, though. Collect premiums, and 'mitigate losses' by denying coverage.

I worked with the dentist's office, and discovered that what they would actually pay out would never come near covering the costs, and of course would never come close to the premium amount. We worked a deal to get the insurer's 'negotiated rate' discount for cash at time of service, which was a deal that worked out better than Delta Dental's 'cash for nothing' plan.
 
I think both government and insurance companies are playing a game of chicken here. ... as a result of the new law, all they'll do is get people to demand the public option.

Then again, maybe that's what the legislators were hoping would happen...

Ding ding ding, we have a winner...

A few months ago it was only on my most cynical days that I thought that might be true. Now, I wonder how I could have been so naive.

-ERD50
 
Ok
1) DW is a well known MD in her field and is a salaried federal government physician
2) I've been a Visiting Prof. in Medical or Public health Schools in the USA, Germany and the UK
3) The waste in the US health care system is staggering. Most is in insurance administrative costs. Some is in keeping open hospitals or medical departments that are inefficiently small. Some is huge over payments to a small number of physicians. Physicians are paid much more than is justified by their out of pocket educational costs.
4) Most of the cost of medical malpractice is in providing the future care to those injured by the health care system. That cost will not go away no matter what you do to the plaintiffs or their lawyers. It is a product of very poor quality control in medicine.
5) Physicians in fee for service environments have enormous conflicts of interest, routinely leading to over "treatment" and inflated billing.

I don't have easy solutions but the lobbyists and vested intersts are certainly in control
 
Physicians are paid much more than is justified by their out of pocket educational costs.
The market determines what people earn in the US. The cost of a person's education has only the loosest of associations with what people earn--ask anyone with a PhD in Literature or Women's Studies.

It's all about supply and demand. The supply of physicians in the US is kept artificially low.
 
Whether the demand curve for labor in a specific field is generated by what is loosely called a market varies widely from field to field. Unions, trade associations , professional licenses, patents, foreign competition, monopolies and regulatory statutes are all formal barriers to "markets". Information failure is a less formal barrier.
 
4) Most of the cost of medical malpractice is in providing the future care to those injured by the health care system. That cost will not go away no matter what you do to the plaintiffs or their lawyers. It is a product of very poor quality control in medicine.
[/QUOTE

Sounds like tort reform is needed..........;)
 
my personal opinion is americans have shifted the use of insurance from supplementing the costs of major unforeseen events to not having to pay any money for the smallest little incident. In the medical world, this means a physical which costs $75-$100 if paid in cash and upfront, ends up costing significantly more. That's more than I pay a month for both me and DW. Then the doctors have to hire people to do the billing, hound the insurance companies and not get paid for 2 months. Opposed to getting cash, upfront. It's interesting to ask how much services cost at a doctors office. It's typically significantly cheaper if you tell them you will pay upfront in cash opposed to what the insurance companies are billed. Or...they never give you cost. the doctor is the only place where people go get services not knowing how much it will cost and they do not ask any questions.

shifting insurance from "making one whole" to supplementing major incidents would be a huge step. and tort reform.
 
my personal opinion is americans have shifted the use of insurance from supplementing the costs of major unforeseen events to not having to pay any money for the smallest little incident. In the medical world, this means a physical which costs $75-$100 if paid in cash and upfront, ends up costing significantly more. That's more than I pay a month for both me and DW. Then the doctors have to hire people to do the billing, hound the insurance companies and not get paid for 2 months. Opposed to getting cash, upfront. It's interesting to ask how much services cost at a doctors office. It's typically significantly cheaper if you tell them you will pay upfront in cash opposed to what the insurance companies are billed. Or...they never give you cost. the doctor is the only place where people go get services not knowing how much it will cost and they do not ask any questions.

shifting insurance from "making one whole" to supplementing major incidents would be a huge step. and tort reform.


I think I have posted in another thread (maybe this one, but I doubt it)... I have TRIED to find out how much something costs.. no luck...

Next time you go to the office... ASK... see if you get an answer.. I bet not.

I remember one gal said 'what the insurance company pays'... she just codes the stuff and the doctor's office gets money... this is a small podiatrist's office... so you would think that someone there might know...

They tried to make me pay an additional $25 for something... that the insurance company did not pay... I have not... if they could not tell me the cost upfront.. well...
 
It's interesting to ask how much services cost at a doctors office. It's typically significantly cheaper if you tell them you will pay upfront in cash opposed to what the insurance companies are billed.

I'm surprised you've found a medical provider who will do this. My impression was that Medicare and some private insurers specifically prohibit providers from providing any services for a fee lower than that charged to Medicare or the private insurers. So, the only docs who will perform services at a lower cost for cash are those who don't take Medicare or private insurers (at least ones who have this stipulation). If Congress is going to insert themselves into the free market, I'd rather see them prohibit these kinds of clauses than go on a campaign to force credit card companies to cut exchange fees.

I've heard stories about docs having a small "cash and carry" medical practice, and they love it--it's simple, it's cheap, and they get to do medicine and don't need a big staff.

I've heard dentists will often cut a deal for a cash customer.

It's also interesting to note that costs for medical care that is generally not covered by insurance (e.g. LASIK, cosmetic surgery, etc) are not going up nearly as fast as for care covered by insurance. When people pay their own money there is price competition. Who would have guessed that?
 
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