Understanding Brexit
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mpeirce
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Definitely.
Also if there is a revote that ups the chances that Scotland revotes on independence from the UK.
It's been fascinating to observe how crafty the remainers have been to overrule the vote and get their way.
Bamaman
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It's a long, complicated issue.
I just remember 1970 when we came up on the Italy/Austria border south of the Brenner Pass. Heavy trucks were backed up 10 miles+, and it took the truckers hours to cross the border. Then they had to cross the German border shortly going north. The borders were highly inefficient for commerce.
And the currency stabilation was another issue. I'd hate to see how many zeros would be in the Italian lire vs. the U.S. Dollar today had the Euro not come into place. But if you get down to it, the Euro is essentially the German Mark revalued and with the name changed.
There has always been hard feelings between England and many countries in the European Union. England has a short memory of WW II, especially about some of the countries like Germany. The EU was to try to get the countries on the same side--somewhat. Germany has been the winner in the progress side--economically.
I just remember 1970 when we came up on the Italy/Austria border south of the Brenner Pass. Heavy trucks were backed up 10 miles+, and it took the truckers hours to cross the border. Then they had to cross the German border shortly going north. The borders were highly inefficient for commerce.
And the currency stabilation was another issue. I'd hate to see how many zeros would be in the Italian lire vs. the U.S. Dollar today had the Euro not come into place. But if you get down to it, the Euro is essentially the German Mark revalued and with the name changed.
There has always been hard feelings between England and many countries in the European Union. England has a short memory of WW II, especially about some of the countries like Germany. The EU was to try to get the countries on the same side--somewhat. Germany has been the winner in the progress side--economically.
Which Roger
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Democracy empowers the people to make decisions. It does nothing to protect them from making choices that they later regret. Better that the people screw things up than some centralized power screws things up for them.
Having a do-over vote puts democracy on a slippery slope and IMHO would do more damage than a messy Brexit.
How is a do over putting centralized power in control? In the U.S., we can vote a candidate out of office, which is a do over in a sense. We understand who they are and if they're not performing as we thought, in 2, 4, or 6 years we can re vote. The Brits cannot change this decision. Once out of the EU, they're screwed.
Theresa May was against Brexit. I happen to agree with her initial view on the subject. Not that I sympathize with the Brits, it's their problem.
https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/12/what-is-theresa-may-s-view-on-brexit
stepford
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Does it really? Parliament represents the public who voted for them and they can't agree on Brexit. Maybe this is just the sort of check that the country needs to allow them to rethink things. Maybe this puts direct democracy on a slippery slope, but is an example of the strength of representative democracy.
The problem is Brexit was never defined. It has multiple variations. The people are asked a question that is too vague. The nuances make a huge difference. The referendum was non binding legally and it was poorly constructed. They only did it because they thought it would fail. Parliament has never been for Brexit.
I think May will do what she wants and ignore Parliament. The time is too short by design, she will run out the clock.
I think May will do what she wants and ignore Parliament. The time is too short by design, she will run out the clock.
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Red Badger
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Agree with sentence one. Respectfully and vehemently disagree with sentence two.
Been there - done that (now happily with DW for ~30 years).
aja8888
Moderator Emeritus
+2
Never ending referenda by disgruntled electoral blocks until they get their way are incredibly tiresome and destructive.
I'm Canadian. Ask me how I know.....
Texas Proud
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Heck, it happens all the time here.... whenever there is a vote to increase taxes or start up a new taxing district it can be voted down a few times but then they get creative and make the vote on a day nobody knows about...
One time I had to go to someone garage to vote against a tax increase... guess what... it passes as there were very very few people who actually voted... like 1% of registered voters put a tax on us forever...
This has happened to me at least 5 times over the years...
I will say that this past year the school district lost their bond election and good on them they have said they are not going to put it up for another election...
DrRoy
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A simplistic answer is that a majority of the British wanted most of the upsides of being in the EU without the downsides and compromises that are involved, or having your cake and eating it too. That cannot be done. The EU has no reason to give the British what they want, or others in the union would want that too, and it would fall apart. The result is stalemate. Britain will have to lose the economic benefits if they want to leave, or keep the compromises is they want to stay.
Popeye
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They should just take the hard break and join NAFTA 2.0
My thoughts - the EU was not formed to deal with trade, or barriers, or security needs. It was formed to prevent the horror of war within Europe (two devastating, devastating wars within 25 years) from happening again. It has developed further as these other considerations became more clear. European countries, individually, were tiny before the might of the USA, the Soviet Union, China. A more united Europe could establish a more equal footing. It is a remarkable achievement. Individual nation-states voluntarily surrendering some sovereignty to achieve a better life for their inhabitants. In this, it has been successful. The standard of living of Europeans has increased. But the same issues caused by capitalism exist in Europe: the more recent redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy. As the ruling groups are unwilling or unable to address this problem, they end up dealing with the symptoms.
Beststash
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The Brexit issue is because 64 per cent of young people did not bother to take themselves down to the polling station and cast their ballot, they didn't think it could possibly happen. Very similar to what happened in the US 2016 election. Elections have consequences.
Just_Steve
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Texas Proud
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I can tell you that when I was living there there were more than a few people who said they would rather be the 51st state than be in the EU....
I do not think the hard Brexit will be as bad as people think... first, no money to pay... second, the EU gets a lot of stuff from the UK and I would think they would want to continue to do so...
After the hard Brexit then the two sides can actually discuss an agreement on equal footing... right now the UK is in a bad negotiating position...
USGrant1962
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YVRRocketSurgery
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While it can't always be avoided, I don't think 50% +1 type votes do justice in polling public opinion on a topic, particularly complex issues. I try to research as much as I can before voting for stuff and I still end up wishy washy. IMO, referendums should be non-binding and it really needs to hit more of a 60%+ threshold to obtain a mandate even though it's a tough target to hit on divided issues. There's talk about running a second referendum but I don't see it happening.
John Galt III
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Wasn't it the 'refugee crisis' and the resulting acceleration of the so-called 'Islamization' of England, that put things over the top, and got the Brexit referendum started?
stepford
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At the very least it was the recognition by certain parties that the weaponization of this 'crisis' could be an effective political tool.
[Just waiting for the Mods to delete both our posts]
May's deal is officially dead. No Deal gets a vote tomorrow, which will fail. Then delay is the next vote. Looks like Brexit, if it happens at all, will not be hard. Some Norway variant, with FoM much more likely now.
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