Solar (grid connected and/or battery) in Florida?

[stephenson]

Hi All,

We're in Northwest Florida.

Considering solar power installation - I'm assuming many on this site have done this - would appreciate your thoughts, especially any issues or remorse you might have for having done it.

Have a couple of proposals from reputable companies in our area - looks like we can stay under the Gulf Power Tier One - lower fees and insurance, apparently.

Topics:
- what percentage of usage to zero out cost (except meter fee) with Gulf Power (or your grid supplier)
- payback period
- is it performing to expectations
- any surprises with insurance company
- component manufacturer positives or negatives
- finance at 1% via the installation company system, or case - basically
- battery backup experience (think substitute for generator for post hurricane)

Thanks!

 

[Ian S]

My knowledge of solar is out of date since we sold our system with our Phoenix home a couple of years ago. My impression was that Florida was not too solar friendly but that may have changed. One thing I suspect hasn't changed is that leasing solar is usually a bad idea especially if there is an annual increase you are required to pay. Also, leased solar tends to be a negative when trying to sell a home. A good forum to learn about solar advantages and drawbacks is https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/

 

[stephenson]

Thanks, Ian ... have been reading on solarpaneltalk for some time.

I would buy cash as pricing is at least 10% better, and if I sell house, far easier to put the deal together.

Public utilities in Florida are actually OK with solar - basically homeowner and utility give and take kW each month and settle at end of month, any end of year if you have provided more than the utility - or, at least this is my understanding from talking to folks who have bought systems.

Spoke with USAA yesterday and am disheartened at their approach, which was to add $73,000 in value to the house to be insured at an additional $240 a year for a system that costs about $22,000 installed. Their process for determining additional coverage is done in bands based on the number of panels: 0-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40 ...not cost, so completely outdated - they were, as USAA has become, utterly indifferent to any other level discussion. My system would require 31-34 panels.

Given the added strength provided to roof trusses and structure, one would think there are some trade offs, but they apparently have taken another path. In all post hurricane photos homes with panels have fared better, with panels intact as well as roofing under the panels, but the remainder of the roof stripped of shingles.

This set me back ... have to do some recalculation now, to include insurance costs. Probably still makes since given CD rates, increasing power costs, etc.

The other big somewhat-unknown is the additional value of the property when a future homeowner buys it, knowing their power bill is near zero.

 

[Al in Ohio]

Following. I just had a presentation done and contract prepared by “Solar is Freedom “ here in Ohio whete we average 4 hours of effective solar production per day. 10 panel system which offsets less than half my annual electric needs. Cost after 26% federal tax credit was $11,000 and my payback was about 20 years. We plan to move in 5 so I’m about to decline before Monday when they scheduled another follow up zoom call. If I had a sunnier rooftop in a sunnier state that we would live in for at least 15 more years I’d do it. We also live now in a net metering utility city so no need for a battery.

 

[Freedom56]

We installed our system in Southern California and was operational in October 2012. We took a different approach by researching what we needed. You should start by going to this site to see if solar makes sense at your home. Your roof should be tilted south or flat to allow for south tilted panels. You should be able to determine how many panels will fit on your roof. Enter some data regarding your property and it will calculate how much energy your system will produce.

https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/

I would not recommend leasing a system. Paying cash is a better and in our case it was equivalent to a CD that pays 22% interest after taxes. You should start by assessing what you pay annually for electricity to determine if it makes sense. We also changed all our bulbs and lighting to LED and installed a variable speed pool pump. Those costs were relatively minor and we did the work ourselves.

We took a hands on approach by selecting the best components at the time and one of the largest residential installers install the system. We paid cash for our system and acted as the prime contractor. Our cost break-down was as follows:

Design and Permitting:

Engineering Plan for City Permitting - $600.00
City Permitting Fees- $440.95

Panels, Micro-inverters, Factory Wiring, Energy Management

22 Kyocera KD240GX Panels, 22 Enphase
M215 Microinverters, Enphase Branch Cable,
Enphase Envoy Energy Management Unit,
branch terminators, Grounding hardware $13,294.60

Roof Attachment Hardware, installation, grid connection

Stainless Steel/Galv. Steel & Anodized Aluminum
Custom Mounting System, Conduit,
Wiring, Breakers, Disconnects,
Combiner Boxes, Junction Boxes, Roof Jacks & Flashings
Labor and listed material above for the installation of customer provided:
22 ea. Kyocera 240W solar modules and 22 ea. Enphase microinverters - $8970.75

Total Cash Outlay: $23306.30
SCE Edison Rebate : $(1621)
Net costs before Tax Credits : $21,685.30
Federal Tax Credit (IRS Form 5695) - $(6506)

Net cost: $15,179.30

Average annual cost of electricity at 2012 rates: $3484 (10.9 megawatts annually).

Average annual cost after installation: $(170)

Break-Even: 4.3 Years

We generate more electricity than we consume, so we receive a small rebate every year net of the $10 monthly grid connection charge that they started assessing in 2015.

So far we have not had any issues with the system after almost 9 years of use. Electricity rates are much higher now and component costs have declined. So the case today is even more compelling.

 

[Zathras]

...

Spoke with USAA yesterday and am disheartened at their approach, which was to add $73,000 in value to the house to be insured at an additional $240 a year for a system that costs about $22,000 installed. Their process for determining additional coverage is done in bands based on the number of panels: 0-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40 ...not cost, so completely outdated - they were, as USAA has become, utterly indifferent to any other level discussion. My system would require 31-34 panels.

...

Wow, State Farm doesn't add any value to the house due to solar panels. I'd ask around and get some competing quotes.
Alternatively, it may be a state law that doesn't allow insurance companies to do this here (Minnesota).

 

[ERD50]

....

Net cost: $15,179.30

Average annual cost of electricity at 2012 rates: $3484 (10.9 megawatts annually).

Average annual cost after installation: $(170)

Break-Even: 4.3 Years

We generate more electricity than we consume, so we receive a small rebate every year net of the $10 monthly grid connection charge that they started assessing in 2015.

So far we have not had any issues with the system after almost 9 years of use. Electricity rates are much higher now and component costs have declined. So the case today is even more compelling.

That looks pretty good. But FL kWh rates are about 1/3rd yours, so for similar costs/rebates, more like 12 year payback. At that point, you need to start taking re-roofing schedule into consideration, as removing/replacing the panels will add to the re-roofing costs, plus maybe a few inverter replacements?

Why are CA kWh rates so high (IL is in-line with FL rates and the national average)? Even with those rates, they are having major reliability problems, and can't seem to keep the lines cleared of trees. Here in N-IL, tree trimming trucks are pretty much an everyday site as you drive around.

-ERD50

 

[Freedom56]

That looks pretty good. But FL kWh rates are about 1/3rd yours, so for similar costs/rebates, more like 12 year payback. At that point, you need to start taking re-roofing schedule into consideration, as removing/replacing the panels will add to the re-roofing costs, plus maybe a few inverter replacements?

Why are CA kWh rates so high (IL is in-line with FL rates and the national average)? Even with those rates, they are having major reliability problems, and can't seem to keep the lines cleared of trees. Here in N-IL, tree trimming trucks are pretty much an everyday site as you drive around.

-ERD50

Theseare the rates today from SCE:

https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/Standard-Residential-Rate-Plan

They are about 45% higher than what we were paying in 2012 but we have been enjoying free electricity since late 2012. As for Florida, the rates we pay for our high rise condo unit with FPL are much lower than current SCE rates. If we had a home in Florida, I would think twice about installing solar panels given the rates and also the frequent cloud cover.

 

[ncbill]

yep, if you live in S. California with a tiered rate system you pretty much have to put in solar & switch everything you can to natural gas (including clothes dryers) or get hosed every month with tiered rates that are 3-4x the U.S. average.

it reminds me of Mexico, though at least down there the first 300-400kWh (depending on region) per month are almost free...something like a penny per kWh...above that level you get into DAC ("high consumption") rates of $0.25/kWh or more.

 

[stephenson]

Freedom,

Yep - have been discussing topic on solarpaneltalk, and have used pvwatts for numerous what if model runs ... frankly, the industry and products are becoming very commoditized. Pretty straightforward design and costing of components, with lots of suppliers.

Most every panel manufacturer builds low power, medium power, and high power output panels, with fewer companies building increasing good micro-inverters, so it becomes a mix and match game - to reduce overall cost, or in the case of limited roof space, to buyer higher output systems to fit in that limited space. Further, the warranties on the individual products are 6X the California scenario payback, and 2-3X the Florida scenarios payback. The installing companies - this is an interesting area: most all are "new" and while many offer 25 year warranties on workmanship and even replacement of components that fail, who can tell whether they will be in business in 25 years - unlike component manufacturers - so, it does make sense to think through this.

Will power prices increase over time? Always an unknown - I searched for data on this, but could not find much - except that apparently power costs have always increased. In Florida where we are there are always post-hurricane damage costs to the power companies (NextEra owns Florida Power and Light, which apparently owns Gulf Power where we live), and then, if one supposes power companies are disadvantaged by large numbers of solar installations, this could also increase rates over time to those that do not have solar.

So, add in PHEV cars and trucks ... while not currently done via DC-DC from solar, one could imagine a time where the DC requirements for a PHEV could be handled via separate panels from the AC requirement for the remainder of the house - and, since it might not be grid-tied, the local power company would not be involved, at all. Lots of room for imagination for the future - with batteries, and without power companies.

 

[ERD50]

... and then, if one supposes power companies are disadvantaged by large numbers of solar installations, this could also increase rates over time to those that do not have solar. ...

Or, the utility might raise connection fees for people on solar. After all, they are using the grid to provide stable 24/7 power, and not paying much at all for the privilege.

If the people on solar don't like that, they can buy batteries and go off-grid. But I bet the utility charge will look pretty attractive at that point.

-ERD50

 

[stephenson]

ERD,

The could, but since most in our state are public utilities, they would have a difficult time selling it, and lots of lawsuits. This plus, as it stands now, the low percentage of solar probably helps the electric company balance out usage - there may be a breaking point, but solar on residences allows the utility company to act like a battery, as long as it is working cooperatively on the grid.

 

[ncbill]

Here the state utility commission is G_d...if they decide in the face of utility lobbying that there will be no new net metering installs, or a new fee of $20+/month is "fair" for the privilege of being hooked up to the grid, no lawsuit's gonna change that.

Surprised the latter hasn't happened yet...e.g. here residential natural gas customers are already charged $15/month just for the connection...no gas charges included, which for me are only ~$7/month worth of actual gas consumption for water heating, off-season.

 

[stephenson]

nc,

I hear ya - I have a tankless, whole house water heater - cost is about $5-7 a month for gas with an $11 admin fee for the meter.

Energy Users Unite!

 

[ERD50]

ERD,

The could, but since most in our state are public utilities, they would have a difficult time selling it, and lots of lawsuits. This plus, as it stands now, the low percentage of solar probably helps the electric company balance out usage - there may be a breaking point, but solar on residences allows the utility company to act like a battery, as long as it is working cooperatively on the grid.

I wouldn't be so sure. In IL, they increased registration fees for EVs, due to the loss of gas tax revenue.

So they say they want to promote EVs (though I don't think there is a separate IL tax credit, but there might be), and then tax them anyhow.

-ERD50

 

[stephenson]

Probably will be a fight - but, in the end economics will win out and EV market penetration will continue - solar is not a big player in norther climes, but further south, it may slowly expand - or, with tax incentives, explode ... I'm looking forward to battery developments, not so much for EVs, but more broadly, for residential systems, which should, of course change the EV market, as well.

Now, if an EV could be the battery for the residence, with some ability to trade back and forth ...

 

[ERD50]

Probably will be a fight - but, in the end economics will win out and EV market penetration will continue - solar is not a big player in norther climes, but further south, it may slowly expand - or, with tax incentives, explode ... I'm looking forward to battery developments, not so much for EVs, but more broadly, for residential systems, which should, of course change the EV market, as well.

Now, if an EV could be the battery for the residence, with some ability to trade back and forth ...

Not sure where you are going with that. Nothing I said has anything to do with whether I think EV market penetration will continue, and I'm certain it will.

My comment was just an example of one Government organization promoting something through tax credits, and the same (or another) Government organization taxing the same thing that was promoted.

If it can happen with EVs, it can happen with solar.

-ERD50

 

[stephenson]

Just musing

Exciting times, these!

 

[FIYes]

Following this because I am interested in solar. In fact, I have recently gotten quotes for panels from three companies. In researching this I see that I have a lot of learning to do.

One company that I got a quote from had a salesman that came across as the stereotypical “used car salesman” ( apologies to an car salesmen reading this). He actually used the what can I do to get you to sign today and called his manager! Well, that is one company eliminated from any consideration.

 

[stephenson]

So, a quick summary of what I know about pricing so far.

My house is pretty large, and our annual (after one year only) usage is around 15,800 kWh.

The systems being proposed are of two basic sizes, but all designed to fit into the local power company's (Gulf Power) Tier 1 structure to avoid an upfront fee of $477, and a requirement for a $1M liability policy.

The systems use either 340W panels (34) or 379W panels (31) to be right at the 10.00 kW AC limit. This is pretty close to my annual usage, so fits pretty well - I would prefer a bit more output, but it is what it is. Costs (after the tax credit of 26%) range from about $21-27K right now ... although it the panel output size may be a bit of a moving target. There are also differences in panels - the more expensive number is for REC panels with better degradation and thermal factors - think the 92% efficiency after 25 years, vs 85% efficient and thermal is about twice as good as the lower cost Q cell panels - the usual sort of tradeoffs. But, the warranty on the REC panels is better, as well - this may be the main factor.

 

[stephenson]

Just researched REC. Contractor had said they were Swedish company and built panels in Singapore.

Turns out REC is actually owned by the Chinese government, previously built panels in Norway - so this is a nonstarter for me.

Back to QCell, I guess - South Korean, engineering facilities in Germany, and production in our part of the world in Dalton, Georgia.