COVID vaccine concerns / anxiety

[24601NoMore]

Hey, everyone..we were fortune to be able to get an appointment for the Pfizer vaccine only 2 days in to things opening up for our group (50+ with existing health conditions) and were at first super happy and excited - until an email randomly came in talking about the severe adverse affects (including over 1,100 deaths) reported to VAERS to-date. (VAERS as many of you know is the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System that I believe has been used since 1990 or so to track adverse affects for any/all vaccines in the US).

There have apparently been 25K+ total VAERS reports since the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have started going out in mid Dec. 1,131 of those have been deaths.

That said, VAERS is an entirely "voluntary" reporting system and the website goes to great lengths to say (in net) that just because there was a report made does NOT mean there's a causal relationship back to the vaccine.

I pulled all of the reports for our state and there were 9 deaths from Pfizer and 32 from Moderna. 62 total across the US in our age group (50 - 64). I realize those are not "huge" numbers, but they're also non-zero.

With 529K (or so) deaths in the US from COVID, my rough math is that there's around a 480X higher chance of dying from COVID than a vaccine. That said, it's still concerning because it's non-zero.

Wife is more concerned about the "down the road" (1-3 or more years) unknowns since this is all new (mRNA) technology and AFAIK never before used in any vaccine.

So, while we were initially super happy and VERY grateful to get appointments so quickly, we're both apprehensive for different reasons. OK, VERY apprehensive. I realize that's not particularly logical and keep trying to come back to the math of it all (including the fact that the US is now apparently over 90M in total doses administered, with ~30M people having gotten both doses now), but am also stressing a bit (actually, a lot).

Anyone else feeling any concern or anxiety about getting the vaccines? I realize I'm probably more likely to die in a fatal car accident on my way to get the vacc (roughly 1 in 10,500 - I actually looked that up ) than from the vaccine, but still..wife probably has the most valid concern about long-term unknowns even assuming we get through both shots OK initially..

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Yep, I have had those concerns. The fact that using a mRNA vaccine is new in humans, and the vaccines are authorized under an emergency use approval is what gives me the biggest pause. I was/am further apprehensive because I saw some very devastating effects of fellow service members when we were given the anthrax vaccine back in 1999-2000'ish. So, I don't think your apprehension is unfounded. I still think there is a LOT about COVID we don't know about and we don't know what the long term effects might be. We also don't know what the long term effects of the vaccine (or how it might interact with a multitude of variables) might be. So, lots of "Uh...who knows?!?" even though we are constantly assured by our leaders that everything will be A-OK. But, what are they supposed to say?

Nonetheless, we have chosen to take the vaccine. It's really a risk/reward kind of thing and you have to figure that out on your own. Personally, if it wasn't for some upcoming travel, I would have forgone the vaccine all together and just continued to stay home until I felt it was "all clear" to go about my life. But, DW and I are tired of being on "pause" and are going to go live our life, we all know how short it can be. A recent spite of cancer deaths from folks that I flew with (and all were quite young) has made this CRYSTAL clear for me.

 

[MichaelB]

The thread was moved to the COVID forum.

 

[njhowie]

You take random emails that come in at face value?

Please call your healthcare provider and have a discussion about any concerns you may have. You are not going to get the answers here and you and your wife are getting yourselves worked up for no good reason.

 

[Sarah S]

Those reports are of people who died after receiving the vaccine. That doesn’t mean they died FROM the vaccine. If you look at the reports a lot of them appear to have been nursing home residents and on several of the reports I looked at there were comments about the staff saying they were unsurprised by their deaths. If you take a random group of millions of people a certain number will die within a week. The vaccinated group at this point skews older and sicker

 

[Ready]

In a perfect world we never would have been exposed to COVID 19 in the first place. But that’s now in the past so our choice is to live with the virus with a vaccine or without. There is some risk to both but the evidence indicates the risk is much much lower with the vaccine, so I’m comfortable taking it.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

You take random emails that come in at face value?

Please call your healthcare provider and have a discussion about any concerns you may have. You are not going to get the answers here and you and your wife are getting yourselves worked up for no good reason.

Do you know this for a fact? Do you take random musings from the media at face value?

 

[njhowie]

Do you know this for a fact? Do you take random musings from the media at face value?

My spouse is a doctor and knows the answers to all of these questions for a fact - the amount of complete BS going around is off the charts.

Random emails and social media posts are some of the biggest sources of the BS.

I am not looking for a debate or argument. I've given the best advice - talk to your healthcare provider regarding any concerns. If you choose to do that, fine. If you believe that you are personally more knowledgeable, that's fine as well.

Done on this thread.

Best regards.

 

[MichaelB]

Everyone should looks the guidance in the FAQ for this COVID forum. Reports on vaccines, such as side effects, need to be documented from legitimate sources. VAERS data is neither scrutinized nor analyzed, so conclusions drawn from its data are not applicable to us.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

My spouse is a doctor and knows the answers to all of these questions for a fact - the amount of complete BS going around is off the charts.

Random emails and social media posts are some of the biggest sources of the BS.

I am not looking for a debate or argument. I've given the best advice - talk to your healthcare provider regarding any concerns. If you choose to do that, fine. If you believe that you are personally more knowledgeable, that's fine as well.

Done on this thread.

Best regards.

I am not questioning the veracity of the information that you or your DW might have. Although I would note that while a physician will most certainly have good information that a layperson may not understand, that doesn't mean that a physician is the end-all-be answer for all things with the human body...I wouldn't want an orthopedic surgeon operating on my brain as an example. I know a lot about airplanes, and I might be able to fly most airplanes, but that sure doesn't mean that I am an expert on all of them.

I am also not referring to FB or other social media posts. There are LOTS of examples where Dr. Faucci himself has contradicted/reversed/misunderstood the facts...or that the facts have changed. There are plenty of reliable medical journals that illustrate this.

My bigger concern was summarily dismissing the OP's concerns. There are risks to it and while they are minimal...they DO EXIST, and that is not up for debate.

 

[Aerides]

90M people in the US have been vaccinated, 30M have received dual-shots. A significant majority of those 90m are over 65. Probably a whole heckuva bunch over 85.

1131 of those 90M have died. Unless there is data that says that is actuarially out of whack vs. normal expectations, I'd not be remotely concerned. If even 90,000 people, 1%, of that 90M had contracted covid, 1131 would also probably have died from it.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

90M people in the US have been vaccinated, 30M have received dual-shots. A significant majority of those 90m are over 65. Probably a whole heckuva bunch over 85.

1131 of those 90M have died. Unless there is data that says that is actuarially out of whack vs. normal expectations, I'd not be remotely concerned. If even 90,000 people, 1%, of that 90M had contracted covid, 1131 would also probably have died from it.

All very true. All things in life have risk and everyone has to weigh the benefits against to risks for their situation. All in all, CURRENT evidence and science shows that the vaccine risks are far better than the risks of getting COVID. That of course could change, but for now the reward sure seems to outweigh the risks.

 

[24601NoMore]

Random emails and social media posts are some of the biggest sources of the BS.

The source I quoted was not a social media post or a "random" email (sorry if I described it incorrectly). It was from a credible news source and (more importantly) was simply reporting on VAERS data. I did not blindly "trust" the email - but instead went to VAERS MYSELF to verify the data. And the data quoted in the email was 100% what VAERS contains. Total of 1,131 VAERS reports of death. Over 25K (I'm doing that one from memory) of "serious" Adverse Events requiring hospitalization, etc (not just family Doctor visits). Both of those stats were quite surprising to me, as I'd previously only read the CDC numbers from the initial trials and had a much different perspective from that.

Everyone should looks the guidance in the FAQ for this COVID forum. Reports on vaccines, such as side effects, need to be documented from legitimate sources. VAERS data is neither scrutinized nor analyzed, so conclusions drawn from its data are not applicable to us.

Didn't realize there was a FAQ..sorry! But while VAERS is indeed open to public reporting, it is, as I understand it, scrutinized heavily the CDC, FDA and other health agencies in addition to the vaccine producers. That's the only way (that I'm aware of) that anyone can determine if there is any pattern to the events. So I'm not in the camp that would write off VAERS as not being something that conclusions can be drawn from. Sure - there is no "proof" of causality. But I DID go through every single record of death reports for my state, and many of them do APPEAR causal based on the symptoms that "all of a sudden" appeared shortly after injection that did not link back to any known health condition of the person that experienced them. That doesn't PROVE causality, but it sure suggests it.

My bigger concern was summarily dismissing the OP's concerns. There are risks to it and while they are minimal...they DO EXIST, and that is not up for debate.

Thank you! Everyone needs to make their own decision and do their own risk/reward analysis. But from my (and DW's) perspective, the vaccines are ENTIRELY NEW technology. There's never been an mRNA vaccine before, and both vaccines currently available were developed and tested as we all know in unbelievably compressed timeframes. And NO-ONE truly knows what the ramifications of either vaccine will be in 1, 3, 5 or more years. Possibly nothing. Maybe something. But the point is - NO-ONE KNOWS. And that is (in most people's opinions) a reasonable thing to be concerned about.

Net - for those not concerned, that's great. But there are many of us that are, rightly or wrongly. Heck, in my own family, there are many that do not want to get any of the available vaccines, or are waiting - including my own 78 year old mother, my 50+ year old sister, my wife's 70+ year old brother and his wife and many more. All for the reasons I mentioned..I only found this out after sharing info with them on how to get the vaccine now that the groups are more open - and they all pretty much came back with "uh, no thanks". That was surprising and did make me wonder what in the heck we're doing by getting vaccinated so soon. But if not now, when? It's not like we're going to know even anytime this year what the "long term" (if any) effects will be..

ETA - in terms of WHY (get vaccinated)..both wife and I are at very high risk due to existing health conditions..so, we've lived pretty much like COVID hermits the past 12-13 months. Just being able to go back to a park, pick out our own meats and veggies at the store or do any number of other activities (wearing masks of course) will allow us to get back to at least "some" of the life we've foregone for over a year now..

 

[MichaelB]

You do realize that, in internet etiquette, all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Here we’re among friends, so no need to yell so much.

But while VAERS is indeed open to public reporting, it is, as I understand it, scrutinized heavily the CDC, FDA and other health agencies in addition to the vaccine producers. That's the only way (that I'm aware of) that anyone can determine if there is any pattern to the events. So I'm not in the camp that would write off VAERS as not being something that conclusions can be drawn from. Sure - there is no "proof" of causality. But I DID go through every single record of death reports for my state, and many of them do APPEAR causal based on the symptoms that "all of a sudden" appeared shortly after injection that did not link back to any known health condition of the person that experienced them. That doesn't PROVE causality, but it sure suggests it.

The data you are referring to has not been analyzed or scrutinized, it’s unverified data and reports.

Health organizations such as CDC, medical research teams, pharma companies and others use that data, but they certainly don’t take it at face value and we should not either. It’s one source of information, and like other big data, does not show or demonstrate trends or relationships, it highlights opportunities for further study.

 

[harllee]

Each of us have to weigh the risks of every vaccine we take against the risk of not taking the vaccine--that applies to vaccines such as tetanus, influenza, shingles etc. as well as the Covid vaccine. I did the research and weighed the risks (including the risk of allergies--I have allergies to several medicines) and decided that I was much more likely to get seriously ill/die from Covid than I was from the vaccine. I am now about a month from the second dose of Moderna--the only side effect was a sore arm. I probably personally know know about 100 people who have had one or two doses of the vaccine--the only side effects were mild and short lived. On the other hand I personally know 3 people who have died from Covid and 5 people who had Covid and are still having serious health problems many months later. It was an easy decision for me to get the vaccine--there are some risks with the vaccine but in my opinion getting Covid is much more risky.

 

[anethum]

I am not questioning the veracity of the information that you or your DW might have. Although I would note that while a physician will most certainly have good information that a layperson may not understand, that doesn't mean that a physician is the end-all-be answer for all things with the human body...I wouldn't want an orthopedic surgeon operating on my brain as an example. I know a lot about airplanes, and I might be able to fly most airplanes, but that sure doesn't mean that I am an expert on all of them.

I am also not referring to FB or other social media posts. There are LOTS of examples where Dr. Faucci himself has contradicted/reversed/misunderstood the facts...or that the facts have changed. There are plenty of reliable medical journals that illustrate this.

My bigger concern was summarily dismissing the OP's concerns. There are risks to it and while they are minimal...they DO EXIST, and that is not up for debate.

Emphasis mine.

I'm tired of seeing Dr. Fauci maligned by some. He, and we, are dealing with a novel coronavirus. There was minimal scientific information available a year ago, and China wasn't opening up much about the early situation other than releasing the genome of the virus. Dr. Fauci was giving out honest science-based information relying on the best available knowledge at any given time. When new facts and additional data became available, he updated his guidance. Unlike many, his advice was based on the best science known at the time, not on politics. I think he has done an exemplary job.

 

[MichaelB]

Let’s please not turn this into a discussion on Dr. Faucci

 

[twaddle]

The VAERS data is evaluated by the CDC. Somebody posted an excellent presentation by the CDC indicating how it and other sources are used. The CDC gives a short summary here:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

VAERS accepts reports of any adverse event following vaccination, even if it is not clear the vaccine caused the problem.

There will always be deaths, but you need to compare to "background" deaths in similar populations who haven't taken the vaccine.

 

[Winemaker]

I am more inclined to take the J&J vaccine because of its methodology rather than the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. mRNA is new technology, and the testing period, was too short for my comfort, at this time.

 

[Gumby]

I would only caution against the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. A lot of the people vaccinated so far have been elderly people in nursing homes. As we all know, elderly people in nursing homes die on a regular basis. Some of them even die immediately after receiving a COVID vaccine, which is precisely what happened to my sister-in-law's mother, who died two days after receiving her second dose in the nursing home. Was it the vaccine that killed her? Maybe. Or maybe it was the fact that she was 93 years old, suffering from severe dementia, in extremely poor health and expected to die imminently anyway. I don't think that we can conclude anything from the fact that she got the vaccine and then died soon afterwards.

What I do know is that COVID can kill me or severely harm me if I catch it, so I am taking the vaccine to prevent that.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

You do realize that, in internet etiquette, all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Here we’re among friends, so no need to yell so much.

Or maybe trying to make their point? More specifically, "...for this reason, etiquette generally discourages the use of all caps when posting messages online. While all caps can be used as an alternative to rich-text "bolding" for a single word or phrase, to express emphasis, repeated use of all caps can be considered "shouting" or irritating."

This is subjective and IMHO, the OP wasn't shouting.

 

[Alectoris]

I can only add my limited experience here.

I took my second dose around the end of February.

I don't know what will happen in two or ten years from know. I also don't know if some drunk is going to plow into me or if I slide off the snowy road.

I've been stuck with more vaccines than probably most here ( flyboy may be an exception) Typhoid sucked, Anthrax(not USDA approved in 1991) was interesting.

I guess I look at this as is Merck, AZ, Moderna and all the others going to release a bunch of poison upon Humanity?

But McDonalds served hot coffee......

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Emphasis mine.

I'm tired of seeing Dr. Fauci maligned by some. He, and we, are dealing with a novel coronavirus. There was minimal scientific information available a year ago, and China wasn't opening up much about the early situation other than releasing the genome of the virus. Dr. Fauci was giving out honest science-based information relying on the best available knowledge at any given time. When new facts and additional data became available, he updated his guidance. Unlike many, his advice was based on the best science known at the time, not on politics. I think he has done an exemplary job.

I used Dr. Fauci just an example. Use ANY expert in lieu of his name and the assertion is the same. I have made the point over and over, in multiple threads that this is novel and we don't know what we don't know. The politics are out there whether we like it or not...I don't think it has a place in the COVID world, but it is what it is. And yes, I think he has done a good job, but my point still stands.

 

[braumeister]

Thanks for the interesting discussion.