Fantastic Vaccine Results in US

[audreyh1]

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Originally Posted by RAE So, for someone in very good health, with a strong immune system, I don't think the risk of getting extremely sick with COVID is high. I actually know quite a few people who have had COVID, and have gotten through it with either very mild symptoms, or symptoms that lasted a week or so, with no lingering issues. I'm not saying that most people should not get vaccinated, because I think most people probably should (especially considering the health status of the average middle-age to older American, which is not all that great). But I do not think it is a "no brainer" that EVERYONE should.

I think it's an issue of having continued spread go on for a very long time if there is a large % of the population unvaccinated (and potentially even more malicious variants show up). I don't know what to say to a young person who believes catching covid is a very low health risk to them, and therefore the vaccine could perhaps be a higher risk. Do they take that unknown vaccine risk to help stop covid spreading? They don't believe they are doing it to protect themselves in this case, but to benefit others.

[Gumby]

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Originally Posted by RAE I don't want to get into a debate about vaccines, but I don't think it is that simple. Yes, some people who get the virus get very sick, and may have long-term effects, but those people are still in the minority. A majority of people who have gotten seriously ill have one or more chronic health issues that likely contributed to their poor outcome. I'm sure you have read about those chronic issues and their link to severe COVID..............obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc.. I do realize that some people who are reasonably healthy and do not have chronic health issues have also gotten very sick with COVID, but if you look at the numbers, they are definitely very much in the minority. So, for someone in very good health, with a strong immune system, I don't think the risk of getting extremely sick with COVID is high. I actually know quite a few people who have had COVID, and have gotten through it with either very mild symptoms, or symptoms that lasted a week or so, with no lingering issues. I'm not saying that most people should not get vaccinated, because I think most people probably should (especially considering the health status of the average middle-age to older American, which is not all that great). But I do not think it is a "no brainer" that EVERYONE should.

That's a remarkably solipsistic view. Getting the vaccine does more than protect my health. It also prevents me from spreading COVID to others who may not fare as well should they contract it. Stopping the pandemic requires each of us to do our part by taking precautions and getting vaccinated. Sadly, some have politicized this entire thing for their own ends.

[jollystomper]

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Originally Posted by RAE I don't want to get into a debate about vaccines, but I don't think it is that simple. Yes, some people who get the virus get very sick, and may have long-term effects, but those people are still in the minority. A majority of people who have gotten seriously ill have one or more chronic health issues that likely contributed to their poor outcome. I'm sure you have read about those chronic issues and their link to severe COVID..............obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc.. I do realize that some people who are reasonably healthy and do not have chronic health issues have also gotten very sick with COVID, but if you look at the numbers, they are definitely very much in the minority. So, for someone in very good health, with a strong immune system, I don't think the risk of getting extremely sick with COVID is high. I actually know quite a few people who have had COVID, and have gotten through it with either very mild symptoms, or symptoms that lasted a week or so, with no lingering issues. I'm not saying that most people should not get vaccinated, because I think most people probably should (especially considering the health status of the average middle-age to older American, which is not all that great). But I do not think it is a "no brainer" that EVERYONE should.

I tend to lean towards this view. I just remember, back in the May/June timeframe, so many saying how the vaccine trials were being "rushed", no way they would take a vaccine that was approved in less than 18-24 months, and anyone who did take it must be crazy and would danger their health. Now many of those are suddenly saying if you do not take it you must be crazy and are endangering your health - perhaps not realizing that sometimes people cling to the first impression those with influence proclaim.

[Gumby]

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Originally Posted by jollystomper I tend to lean towards this view. I just remember, back in the May/June timeframe, so many saying how the vaccine trials were being "rushed", no way they would take a vaccine that was approved in less than 18-24 months, and anyone who did take it must be crazy and would danger their health. Now many of those are suddenly saying if you do not take it you must be crazy and are endangering your health - perhaps not realizing that sometimes people cling to the first impression those with influence proclaim.

I thought those people were wrong last summer. I'm too lazy to go find it, but I recall at the time posting here something along the lines of "Just because it hasn't been done that fast, doesn't mean it can't be done that fast."

[braumeister]

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Originally Posted by RAE for someone in very good health, with a strong immune system, I don't think the risk of getting extremely sick with COVID is high. I actually know quite a few people who have had COVID, and have gotten through it with either very mild symptoms, or symptoms that lasted a week or so, with no lingering issues.

The problem is that for every anecdote like yours there are other anecdotes about extremely fit people in excellent health getting COVID leading to a swift death.

[Alan]

Worldwide 548 million doses have been given, 148 million in the USA. Any safety issues would have been apparent by now.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/c...-distribution/

[ExFlyBoy5]

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Originally Posted by Alan Worldwide 548 million doses have been given, 148 million in the USA. Any safety issues would have been apparent by now. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/c...-distribution/

Unless they don't show themselves until 5 years post vaccination. I am NOT saying that it will happen, but just to illustrate that doubt can ALWAYS be interjected into a "pro" argument making it more difficult to convince people that vaccination is the right idea. And like so many other things in life...we don't know what we don't know. The CDC page reflects that line of thought over and over and over again.

[explanade]

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Originally Posted by Alan Worldwide 548 million doses have been given, 148 million in the USA. Any safety issues would have been apparent by now. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/c...-distribution/

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Originally Posted by ExFlyBoy5 Unless they don't show themselves until 5 years post vaccination. I am NOT saying that it will happen, but just to illustrate that doubt can ALWAYS be interjected into a "pro" argument making it more difficult to convince people that vaccination is the right idea. And like so many other things in life...we don't know what we don't know. The CDC page reflects that line of thought over and over and over again.

Even if there turns out to be long-term issues, I think few people are going to regret getting vaccinated now.

I would imagine people had similar approach to the polio vaccines -- what if the cure turns out to be worse than the disease?

You can see that people are antsy to get back to normal, including a lot of people who haven't been vaccinated.


They're working on cancer vaccines, including using the mRNA technology. So if and when those become available, you think people with cancer or a family history of cancer are going to be worrying about potential long-term issues from the vaccine?

Sure worry, but probably not enough to not take them.

[jollystomper]

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Originally Posted by braumeister The problem is that for every anecdote like yours there are other anecdotes about extremely fit people in excellent health getting COVID leading to a swift death.

In which case we move beyond anecdotes and turn to data studies like this one (https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.or...130-7/fulltext) that indicate the anecdotes of fit people dying from COVID are more the exception than the rule:

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Results We identified 246 patients (age, 59±12 years; 42% male; 75% black race) who had an exercise test and tested positive for SARS-CoV-2. Among these, 89 (36%) were hospitalized. Peak METs were significantly lower (P<.001) among patients who were hospitalized (6.7±2.8) compared with those not hospitalized (8.0±2.4). Peak METs were inversely associated with the likelihood of hospitalization in unadjusted (odds ratio, 0.83; 95% CI, 0.74-0.92) and adjusted models (odds ratio, 0.87; 95% CI, 0.76-0.99). Conclusion Maximal exercise capacity is independently and inversely associated with the likelihood of hospitalization due to COVID-19. These data further support the important relationship between cardiorespiratory fitness and health outcomes. Future studies are needed to determine whether improving maximal exercise capacity is associated with lower risk of complications due to viral infections, such as COVID-19.

The key, of course is the definition of "fit". For many, fitness is defined as "looking good on the beach in beachwear" fit. That can have zero relationship to being fit in cardiovascular terms.

I am feeling more and more, given that so many of the factors that may be related to how the body fights the virus are not visible to the eye (like high blood pressure, vitamin deficiencies, etc.) that a free annual physical with bloodwork and DNA workup should be mandatory available in the U.S. for everyone once they turn 18, to make individuals aware of their susceptibility to those things as soon as possible. Of course, this would likely be met with cries of privacy violations.

[ExFlyBoy5]

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Originally Posted by explanade Even if there turns out to be long-term issues, I think few people are going to regret getting vaccinated now. I would imagine people had similar approach to the polio vaccines -- what if the cure turns out to be worse than the disease? You can see that people are antsy to get back to normal, including a lot of people who haven't been vaccinated. They're working on cancer vaccines, including using the mRNA technology. So if and when those become available, you think people with cancer or a family history of cancer are going to be worrying about potential long-term issues from the vaccine? Sure worry, but probably not enough to not take them.

Don't shoot the messenger. I am saying that there will ALWAYS be doubters and the fact remains that we DO NOT know everything to know about COVID or the vaccines. That is a fact.

Personally, I was quite happy to take the vaccine...even after seeing the issues with the anthrax vaccine that was forced upon us service members. I *should* have been a doubter, but I have read the available science articles and studies and felt that the reward far outweighed the risk. Others only get their "information" from social media (and a lot of group think) and well...we know how that goes.

[ivinsfan]

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Originally Posted by jollystomper In which case we move beyond anecdotes and turn to data studies like this one (https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.or...130-7/fulltext) that indicate the anecdotes of fit people dying from COVID are more the exception than the rule: The key, of course is the definition of "fit". For many, fitness is defined as "looking good on the beach in beachwear" fit. That can have zero relationship to being fit in cardiovascular terms. I am feeling more and more, given that so many of the factors that may be related to how the body fights the virus are not visible to the eye (like high blood pressure, vitamin deficiencies, etc.) that a free annual physical with bloodwork and DNA workup should be mandatory available in the U.S. for everyone once they turn 18, to make individuals aware of their susceptibility to those things as soon as possible. Of course, this would likely be met with cries of privacy violations.

Why not just have everyone over 18 get vaccinated? Bloodwork and a DNA workup still won't prevent you from catching Covid..

[dirtbiker]

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Originally Posted by RAE I don't want to get into a debate about vaccines, but I don't think it is that simple. Yes, some people who get the virus get very sick, and may have long-term effects, but those people are still in the minority. A majority of people who have gotten seriously ill have one or more chronic health issues that likely contributed to their poor outcome. I'm sure you have read about those chronic issues and their link to severe COVID..............obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc.. I do realize that some people who are reasonably healthy and do not have chronic health issues have also gotten very sick with COVID, but if you look at the numbers, they are definitely very much in the minority. So, for someone in very good health, with a strong immune system, I don't think the risk of getting extremely sick with COVID is high. I actually know quite a few people who have had COVID, and have gotten through it with either very mild symptoms, or symptoms that lasted a week or so, with no lingering issues. I'm not saying that most people should not get vaccinated, because I think most people probably should (especially considering the health status of the average middle-age to older American, which is not all that great). But I do not think it is a "no brainer" that EVERYONE should.

It actually IS that simple. We do not know of any long-term side effects of the vaccines, nor do we have any reasonable expectations that there will be long-term side effects. We DO know there are long-term side effects of the virus. As with ALL drug/vaccine/illness adverse effects, not everyone gets them.

I appreciate that you know a few people who have had Covid without lingering side effects. However, I'd like to wager that, haven taken care of hundreds of Covid patients now, and am still treating long-term effects of dozens, that I probably have a bit more experience in this than you do. Hearing a story about Covid that starts with "Actually I know someone" or "Actually I know a few people" is more tiring than you'll probably ever know.

Quite frankly though, it's more about beating this pandemic and doing more than just what is best for you as an individual. Young, healthy people should be thinking about the sick and elderly in addition to themselves. If they are low risk for getting a severe form of the disease or long-term affects from the disease, why on Earth would they fear long-term effects of the vaccine?

[Calico]

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Originally Posted by dirtbiker It actually IS that simple. We do not know of any long-term side effects of the vaccines, nor do we have any reasonable expectations that there will be long-term side effects. We DO know there are long-term side effects of the virus. As with ALL drug/vaccine/illness adverse effects, not everyone gets them. I appreciate that you know a few people who have had Covid without lingering side effects. However, I'd like to wager that, haven taken care of hundreds of Covid patients now, and am still treating long-term effects of dozens, that I probably have a bit more experience in this than you do. Hearing a story about Covid that starts with "Actually I know someone" or "Actually I know a few people" is more tiring than you'll probably ever know. Quite frankly though, it's more about beating this pandemic and doing more than just what is best for you as an individual. Young, healthy people should be thinking about the sick and elderly in addition to themselves. If they are low risk for getting a severe form of the disease or long-term affects from the disease, why on Earth would they fear long-term effects of the vaccine?

+1000

[Aerides]

mod note: We are not going to accept continued debate on "how bad is Covid really" in this thread or any other.

[Another Reader]

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Originally Posted by dirtbiker It actually IS that simple. We do not know of any long-term side effects of the vaccines, nor do we have any reasonable expectations that there will be long-term side effects. We DO know there are long-term side effects of the virus. As with ALL drug/vaccine/illness adverse effects, not everyone gets them. I appreciate that you know a few people who have had Covid without lingering side effects. However, I'd like to wager that, haven taken care of hundreds of Covid patients now, and am still treating long-term effects of dozens, that I probably have a bit more experience in this than you do. Hearing a story about Covid that starts with "Actually I know someone" or "Actually I know a few people" is more tiring than you'll probably ever know. Quite frankly though, it's more about beating this pandemic and doing more than just what is best for you as an individual. Young, healthy people should be thinking about the sick and elderly in addition to themselves. If they are low risk for getting a severe form of the disease or long-term affects from the disease, why on Earth would they fear long-term effects of the vaccine?

Curious how many Long Covid patients you are seeing and how old and healthy they are? The support groups are full of young, previously healthy and athletic people with some nasty sequelae. The Body Politic group did a patient-led survey that showed the majority of people that participated were younger and healthy before getting Covid.

[Chuckanut]

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Originally Posted by dirtbiker Quite frankly though, it's more about beating this pandemic and doing more than just what is best for you as an individual. Young, healthy people should be thinking about the sick and elderly in addition to themselves.

Interestingly, I have heard from several young folks, including my own kids, that parents being fully vaccinated has lifted a burden off of the children. They no longer have to worry about seeing a few old school friends on Thursday night and then dropping over on Sunday with a load of laundry to do in the 'family washing machine', raid my Costco food supply, and borrow my tools. IOW, my vaccination has freed them up to live a somewhat more normal life.

P.S. I never knew until a few months ago that my washer was known as the family washing machine to my kids. Maybe I need to put a sign above it: Dad's Laundromat, $2 a load. Hey, it's pizza and beer money that - thanks to the vaccine - I can now spend when I see my buddies.

[camfused]

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Originally Posted by Gumby I thought those people were wrong last summer. I'm too lazy to go find it, but I recall at the time posting here something along the lines of "Just because it hasn't been done that fast, doesn't mean it can't be done that fast."

On May 25, 1961, twenty days after the first US crewed spaceflight Freedom 7 (Alan Shepard), John Kennedy proposed the crewed Moon landing, by the end of that decade (so within 8.5 years) in a message to Congress. Many in the scientific community thought he was nuts, since we had launched just one manned flight, which did not even orbit the earth.

So, yeah, given the will (and massive money), there often can be a way. One wonders what a "moon launch" effort could yield for some of the other things that plague society right now.

[NW-Bound]

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Originally Posted by Chuckanut ... They no longer have to worry about seeing a few old school friends on Thursday night and then dropping over on Sunday with a load of laundry to do in the 'family washing machine', raid my Costco food supply, and borrow my tools. IOW, my vaccination has freed them up to live a somewhat more normal life. P.S. I never knew until a few months ago that my washer was known as the family washing machine to my kids. Maybe I need to put a sign above it: Dad's Laundromat, $2 a load. Hey, it's pizza and beer money that - thanks to the vaccine - I can now spend with when I see my buddies.

I guess I am fortunate that my children have their own laundry machines.

About food, when my wife gets some good grocery deals, she often buys extra to give to them, but only my son accepts it, while my daughter always refuses. I guess males do not want to go shopping. But they both want homemade dishes that my wife makes.

My son is slowly accumulating tools, but I just now remember he still has 4 of my woodworking clamps.

[Out of Steam]

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Originally Posted by anethum Despite the real world 90% effectiveness of 2 doses of both the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines announced by the CDC following their study of 4,000 essential workers, CDC Director Walensky expressed today a feeling of "impending doom" due to rising caseloads in the USA. Daily cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, are all increasing again, despite more and more people getting vaccinated every day.

I believe also that many of the people who have been getting vaccinated are the same ones who were making serious efforts to avoid COVID already, therefore not reducing the susceptible population by as much as we would think.

[JoeWras]

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Originally Posted by Out of Steam I believe also that many of the people who have been getting vaccinated are the same ones who were making serious efforts to avoid COVID already, therefore not reducing the susceptible population by as much as we would think.

Yes.

And also a reason why there is angst about a third wave.