How Coronavirus Infected Some, but Not All, in a Restaurant

[Ready]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack There are pics of people wearing masks in restaurants right now in China, they just lower them when they're actually eating or drinking. Obviously that won't fly with everyone, some might accept it. Presumably servers and other restaurant employees will wear masks most if not all the time - servers have a higher exposure than anyone else in a restaurant including customers.

We will see. I’d have to be pretty desperate to want to go to a restaurant with a mask on and have to keep removing it every time I want to take a bite of food. And how do you keep moving the mask up and down without possibly contaminating your hands by touching the mask? We were told that once you put your mask on you are not supposed to touch it until you are ready to completely remove it from your face and then dispose of it or sanitize it.

[audreyh1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack - servers have a higher exposure than anyone else in a restaurant including customers.

Yeah, it was two regular servers of the initial Covid-19 person on the Grand Princess who contracted it, and it spread among many of the crew, and then ready to infect the next round of passengers.

Of course they were waiting on the same person day after day, multiple meals, and the same repeated exposure is not likely in a restaurant except for maybe a regular breakfast crowd.

[W2R]

We miss eating out, the pleasant atmosphere, and the casual banter back and forth with the young wait staff at our usual restaurant. They are nice people. In recent weeks we sometimes get take-out. They wave at us through the glass of both our closed car window and the restaurant window, with masks on, and it is nice to see that at least some of them are still able to work.

Who knows what the future brings. We will wait at least until the restaurants are full of people for a couple of weeks before we even think of going back and eating inside. (That will probably be months from now). That way we can see if those who do that are getting sick. I doubt anyone would wear a mask while eating, but we'll get that figured out before we go.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by W2R Who knows what the future brings. We will wait at least until the restaurants are full of people for a couple of weeks before we even think of going back and eating inside. (That will probably be months from now). That way we can see if those who do that are getting sick. I doubt anyone would wear a mask while eating, but we'll get that figured out before we go.

Not to be argumentative but waiting a few weeks won’t “guarantee future results” to borrow a phrase. Even if everyone is negative for coronavirus one day, anyone (without immunity) can get infected at any time in the weeks/months/years ahead, and the cleanliness, distancing and other practices could greatly differentiate one restaurant from another. It’s a tough call from a fellow restaurant fan. I’m not sure what we’ll do, but we won’t be the first ones back either.

I’ve thought about cleaning tables between customers and decided I’d want to see it disinfected or clean it myself versus trusting it was done before I sat down. But restaurants may have a better idea.

[steelyman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by W2R We miss eating out, the pleasant atmosphere, and the casual banter back and forth with the young wait staff at our usual restaurant.

Don’t forget the pleasure of stopping by a local saloon for banter and catch-up over a few. On the plus side, a face mask should lessen the chance of getting a shot glass stuck in your throat.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelyman Don’t forget the pleasure of stopping by a local saloon for banter and catch-up over a few. On the plus side, a face mask should lessen the chance of getting a shot glass stuck in your throat.

We’ve moved away, but my former favorite (weekly) microbrew pub is closed. I know the owner well, and I’m worried she won’t survive this.

[copyright1997reloaded]

Can't find the exit strategy thread, so posting this here. Scott Gottlieb just tweeted:

Quote:

New: Study of 318 outbreaks in China found transmission occurred out-of-doors in only one, involving just 2 cases. Most occurred in home or public transport. Raises key chance for states to move services outdoors (religious, gym classes, restaurants, etc).

Source for data for his tweet: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....04.20053058v1

So maybe there is hope for some outdoor style dining?

[martyp]

This is a very interesting case study from China but note that it is not a peer reviewed journal article. The main piece of missing information is sufficient assurances that nobody from tables B and C could have caught the virus prior to going to the restaurant as appears to be the case for person A1. However, this story is completely consistent with many other events sparked by asymptomatic transmission. The basic formula is:

1) A lot of people. The more people the more chance that at least one person brought the infection with them.
2) A confined space. This would be a space where the air change with the outdoors is minimal. This allows the aerosols from and infected person to accumulate in the room.
3) Socializing. People emit aerosols simply by talking. However, the louder you speak the more aerosols you emit. Laughing, shouting, talking loudly, singing are all going to increase the amount of aerosols someone emits. All these behaviors are common in social and sporting events.
4) Time. The longer you are exposed to contaminated air the more virus laden aerosols you will inhale. Your risks appear to become finite with an hour of constant exposure.

[martyp]

I think restaurants are going to have a hard time re-opening under social distancing guidelines. A chain restaurant, like Applebees, tries to get a lot of people in and turn them over. A fine dining restaurant tries to get you in and get you to stay for hours. Restaurants typically operate on very low profit margins even given the way they packed people in and encouraged customer turnover. It is hard to see how they can make a profit at half capacity. Regardless of people trying to wear masks in China, you cannot eat with a mask.

[Nemo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyp .....you cannot eat with a mask.

The 'edible mask' market is wide open for startups.

[P.S.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo2 The 'edible mask' market is wide open for startups.

Use 3D printer to make a sliced meal, applied to the inside of your mask. And you can sit with company and lick the inside of your mask.
Or what about an enlarged, tent-like PAPR enclosing your head, torso, and place setting. Reception can issue it when you check-in.

[gauss]

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyp I think restaurants are going to have a hard time re-opening under social distancing guidelines. A chain restaurant, like Applebees, tries to get a lot of people in and turn them over. A fine dining restaurant tries to get you in and get you to stay for hours. Restaurants typically operate on very low profit margins even given the way they packed people in and encouraged customer turnover. It is hard to see how they can make a profit at half capacity. Regardless of people trying to wear masks in China, you cannot eat with a mask.

But isn't a small loss better than a large cash burn for the fixed costs if they remain closed? The exception would be if the owner wanted to retire anyways, I could understand not operating.

[martyp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gauss But isn't a small loss better than a large cash burn for the fixed costs if they remain closed? The exception would be if the owner wanted to retire anyways, I could understand not operating.

I think we would both agree that a business cannot continue operating at a loss indefinitely. Most plans to reopen the economy include social distancing. Restaurants will have to find a business model that allows for this. And we will have to wait and see what happens as we begin to go out in public again. If there are new clusters of infections where are they coming from?

[sengsational]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sengsational Prediction: restaurants will lure customers back by installing UV-C emitters.

Here's another prediction...a battery operated air handling device that you bring with you to a restaurant. It pulls air through a HEPA filter, then presents a very gentle column of air at a person's face, or more likely delivers cleaned air for two. Far UV-C is better, but not every restaurant will invest in that. I also think more people will choose to sit outside as things start opening up... No additional technology required

[Dtail]

Sitting outside for a restaurant is the only option we would consider right now.

[donheff]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sengsational Here's another prediction...a battery operated air handling device that you bring with you to a restaurant. It pulls air through a HEPA filter, then presents a very gentle column of air at a person's face, or more likely delivers cleaned air for two. Far UV-C is better, but not every restaurant will invest in that. I also think more people will choose to sit outside as things start opening up... No additional technology required

On 60 Minutes (or CNN?) the other day they were covering Amazon's problems and efforts to deal with them. They showed a robot UV-C rover going up an aisle disinfecting cases of products. I slowly passed by giving each section about 5-10 seconds of exposure. Pretty cool.

[harllee]

I saw an article about a restaurant in Amsterdam. They had set up small 2 person greenhouse type buildings in the area outside the restaurant with tables and chairs in them and had people eating inside the small greenhouses. The only contact with others would be your waiter. Looked neat. I might consider going to a place like that.

On the other hand, I saw on the news today about a restaurant in Ohio that was installing plastic shower curtains between the tables. Won't be going there.

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donheff On 60 Minutes (or CNN?) the other day they were covering Amazon's problems and efforts to deal with them. They showed a robot UV-C rover going up an aisle disinfecting cases of products. I slowly passed by giving each section about 5-10 seconds of exposure. Pretty cool.

The problem with disinfecting products is it's way down the list of how people catch the virus it's done for show.

[gwraigty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by harllee On the other hand, I saw on the news today about a restaurant in Ohio that was installing plastic shower curtains between the tables. Won't be going there.

I'd expect not, unless you were planning to travel to Ohio. But are the shower curtains pretty?

They're supposed to be going for the 6 ft. distance first by blocking off tables when possible. High backed booths and other barriers already in place qualify as sufficient.

[Badger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by harllee On the other hand, I saw on the news today about a restaurant in Ohio that was installing plastic shower curtains between the tables. Won't be going there.

Next thing you know plastic shower curtains will be used on airplanes.


Cheers!